[Closed] Monday debate - Are some mountain bikers the worst enemy of the 'sport'?

+1. Just gets what may have been a good cheeky trail closed/rendered useless by landowner and may harm future development of trails sep in England.
Just ask the guys who, like you have ridden a trail for some time only to come across a "feature" and end up in A&E. I know of some and there was a guy on here a few yrs ago who ended up seriously injured(broken back/neck?)
Have "created" a few cheekies in the past but rarely with any limb or life threatening features or in areas. That may cause conflict. Leave it to the youngsters now 😉

There's some jumps been built on a local bridleway in the middle of the trail. They're on a cracking singletrack descent through some woods.

My issue with them is the trail is over a fairly well preserved roman road down a hill side and they're removing the road cobbles where they are exposed to build the jumps with. Doh!

Someone is obviously not too happy as there have been blocks of concrete, branches and even a pallet put across the trail recently. I can only think they are to impede riders.

i'm with the OP.

recently approached some local folks who had done just this to a very highly trod path right on the edge of very a major city, and they all stood there and told me i was wrong, and that the trail had been like that all along.

dirty great 180 berms, and jumps built across singletrack footpaths are two of the most stupid things i have ever seen.

and guess what, two weeks later they were whining on facebook that some walker had put logs over the trail.

i wonder why...

trail has now gone on to be so well used it is appearing on videos on major biking websites, and has been totally trashed as a sneaky way to get out of the city.

face. palm.

It's nothing new, but it's the scale of it that concerns me now. Bigger bikes, more capable riders with more skill, it's different to say, 5 or 10 years ago. More riders out there too. More media coverage of places like Surrey hills and Longleat trail building recently etc. It's not looking good.

If it sounds like I'm not on the fence here, well I try to be and I'd support anyone's desire to ride,but I'm finding my definition of MTB (coming from the rigid 80's and riding only XC now, the sus bike comes out for Aston Hill, Wales or the Alps only) is in some places at odds with those that have a focus on big air / drops etc. That side of riding is getting like moto-x in the way that there's few places you can do it now, so the pressure / urge to build is understandable, if not welcome by all.
The problem I see is the mix between XC and FR/AM now, where a 140mm trail bike can do what was DH 10 yrs ago and the 2 are meeting in the middle in areas where previously it was just bimbling XC riders (like me many days)

agreed no issue with building away from the track in the woods and i have too say most round here do that my other bug bear is huge groups, 10 plus, of riders riding 'cheeky trails' in wet conditions destroyed the trails for all users and then bikers get the blame for erosion.

I agree with your remark about the differences between cheek, clearing and digging.

The dicks who dig up established footpaths/bridleways should be stoned.

Without wishing to jump up onto my own personal soapbox it's just another example of the attitude that is ruining society. What I mean is, self-centred behaviour that considers nobody else, nor considers that there may be future consequences to their actions/enjoyment in the here and now. Speak to any criminal and it's an identical attitude.

learn to jump em, you'll have less to complain about and More to enjoy, simple.

yes mountain bikers can be their own worst enemy, i have no problem per se with building jumps, but they have to be there with the owners permission otherwise it is going to cause issues.

Being local to Cranham, it is not just Cranham, there has been issues on Leckhampton and also at Popes wood it always ends up with jumps being built and people being surprised when they get pulled down.

Good post OP.

as in all sports and walks of life there are riders who don't/can't/won't see the bigger picture.

The answer is more official bike parks/freeride trails for them who wants to do the crazy stuff

to be fair (as someone who works with teenagers) I'd rather they were out building unauthorised jumps in the forest and getting out on their bikes than shoplifting, drinking, experimenting with drugs, or simply sitting on their behinds playing videogames instead of being fit and healthy and enjoying the outdoors

That's not to say it's not annoying for people riding the trails though and I understand the gripe.

100% agree. Those that fly past walkers, take themselves too seriously, build jumps on bridleways or footpaths, ride at insane speeds as if racing but on 2 way trails or on a blind decent... Makes me so cross.

I wish people who don't enjoy the exact same style of recreation as me would just disappear. What I do, and where I do it, is exactly how it should be done. Anything else should be banned.

Seriously. No one is going to approve of illegal building in sensitive spots but you have to recognise it for what it is - teenagers, kids, people who don't really have a handle on what's acceptable and what's not. They'll eventually grow up, wise up, and when they are drawing a pension they'll probably riding a fully rigid around bridleways grumbling about people building jumps.

And to answer your question in a more direct way - no. Some mountainbikers are not the worst enemy of the sport. Walkers, horse riders and general kill joys will always be the worst enemies of the sport. Even if we ride at 3mph wrapped in bubble wrap and whisper and beg to be let passed they'll still resent us for using [b]their[/b] forest. A few mountainbikers building dodgy jumps might give them something to focus on, but they'll hate us regardless, no matter how benign out presence.

Those same mountainbikers, even though they are engaging in dubious trail building (according to the op) are still mtb'ers and will eventually figure out what's right and wrong. Provided in the meantime some grumpy old codgers don't convince them that mtb'ing is actually about touring your rigid single speed through the forest at speeds which allow local bird life to nest in your capacious beard in between bouts of cake eating and tea drinking.

to be fair (as someone who works with teenagers) I'd rather they were out building unauthorised jumps in the forest and getting out on their bikes than shoplifting, drinking, experimenting with drugs, or simply sitting on their behinds playing videogames instead of being fit and healthy and enjoying the outdoors

I couldn't agree more. In an ideal world we'd be able to all live and let live and ignore the jumps etc. I could, happily. But knowing the attitude of most landowners / influential council types they may end up having no more riding to do when a ban is put in place, removing access for all riders, and to them (if I was in their position) it's just another thing that says 'society thinks I'm a nuisance, fk it, may as well sit on our asses in front of facebok / in the park drinking / go and make a bong / etc'. So my Q is, how do we make it sustainable, more cheeky / subtle, etc?

When I was a lad, our bikes were simple and we rode simple trails all day long and had loads of great times. Times change, but there's risks associated with these changes toward more excitingly-presented 'quick-fix rad'.

littlemisspanda - Member
The answer is more official bike parks/freeride trails for them who wants to do the crazy stuff

to be fair (as someone who works with teenagers) I'd rather they were out building unauthorised jumps in the forest and getting out on their bikes than....

as to middle aged storm troopers who drive like ****ts on narrow lanes in their hurry to get to ride and then ride like ****ts on shared paths - think you find more people have a problem with that type of behaviour than building jumps

When I was a lad, our bikes were simple and we rode simple trails all day long and had loads of great times. Times change, but there's risks associated with these changes toward more excitingly-presented 'quick-fix rad'.

[i]"QUICKFIX RAD" [/i] is now my new style of riding.

[i]I'd rather they were out building unauthorised jumps in the forest and getting out on their bikes than shoplifting, drinking, experimenting with drugs, or simply sitting on their behinds playing videogames[/i]

there's a difference between building away from established walking routes and converting footpaths and bridleways into bike only trails though.

I think a lot of people would rather that teenagers were drinking/taking drugs/playign videogames as long as it didn't cause them any problems in their day-to-day lives.

It's about showing respect. How can the kids who build this stuff expect it to remain as they want it if they show no consideration to other users of the area?

I've recently and for the first time had abuse 'We've had enough of you cyclists' from a dog walker in a piece of woodland I've ridden twice a week for the past 14 years. There has been a lot of recent building of DH tracks that use/cross the existing bridleways and footpaths. I think the two are connected.

muddyfunster - Member
I wish people who don't enjoy the exact same style of recreation as me would just disappear. What I do, and where I do it, is exactly how it should be done. Anything else should be banned.

+1

I used to build jumps in the forest with my mates when we were all riding rigid bikes with cantis and as long as I have been riding there have been things appearing and disappearing. Get over it. As for damage I would agree with you but have you ever seen the mess a felling operation makes? Or what happens when they sell some land for a golf course?

After trying to get pemission to build in my local woods I was told I couldn't because it's a site of special scientific interest. 6 months later it's been clear felled with 1m+ wide tracks from the machinery obliterating footpaths.

Obviously doing it on blind corners is pretty stupid but IMO it's just the next in a long line of usage and if people are out enjoying the land on their bikes all the better.

The dicks who dig up established footpaths/bridleways should be stoned.
Without wishing to jump up onto my own personal soapbox it's just another example of the attitude that is ruining society. What I mean is, self-centred behaviour that considers nobody else, nor considers that there may be future consequences to their actions/enjoyment in the here and now. Speak to any criminal and it's an identical attitude.

I bet they would soon whinge if some MXers went down and up it on motorbikes- you read it on here as well.

It may well be mainly kids but they do some incredibly stuopid, dangerous and daft things [ which pretty much sums up being a kid though

You do know that part was aid in jest dont you lifer 😯

Yes, thought that would be obvious by the rest of my post!

You see it every where, and it pee's me off as a rider and walker.

I wouldnt mind it in some ways if people were to permanently use the jumps, but they don't. They will build them, use them for 1 maybe 2 years if lucky and then just leave... If they are no longer going to use them, then they should at least return the ground to how it was!

What is even worse is North Shore stuff. Wharncliffe woods has some lovely paths that are ruined by bits of broken old wood with rusty nails sticking out etc, not once have I seen anyone removing this old dangerous stuff.

Same goes for Esholt woods where there is old bits of wood and nail littered around...

Totally agree with the op.
I'll clear fallen trees and do a little pruning for safeties sake , but you'd never know I'd been.
Don't know what you'd do to self police it , because when I was a youth,sadly,I didn't give a $hit either.

Ok maybe it's getting off-topic and the jumps aren't the main issue, middle-aged men riding like dcks is more widespread, but the jumps are used as an example by me here, and the anti's that have a louder voice than us.

I wish people who don't enjoy the exact same style of recreation as me would just disappear. What I do, and where I do it, is exactly how it should be done. Anything else should be banned.

muddyfunster, I also like a good DH run and jumps. Less of the jumps these days but drops, berms etc, all good fun. I like riding of all kinds and I like seeing others out doing whatever they enjoy - it's the impact that the scale of unauthorised building has that I'm a lot more aware of now. Don't take my references to rigid ss and bimbling as either thinking that's all that riding should be, or that it's all I do. Personal swipes aren't answering the wider q I'm asking - about how the scale of building and the speed / ability of bikes and riders is slowly but surely becoming a increasing threat to what we all do. Got any sensible suggestions that don't involve burying our heads in the sand and hoping we don't all end up riding sectioned-off MTB parks?

Perhaps this is a bigger topic than just the jumps I saw that got me thinking. I suppose it's a point about consideration of all users - the kids playing at a built-up spot, the MAMIL riding in pads on a 5, me on my rigid - I'm all 3 at times. We all risk losing access slowly but surely if we can't keep some kind of tabs on this, it's happening already. Maybe there's no way to do it. Maybe self-policing by something between discussion with the builders, up to removal of the worst offending stuff as an extreme, is an answer?

not once have I seen anyone removing this old dangerous stuff.

Sometimes i get pssed off with seeing litter in places like snowdonia where just one coke can stands out, so I pick it up. I come back with half a dozen bits of junk. Some places are too far gone but others can be helped. Maybe we need to start doing more to clear up our own mess? ('own' as in we're all riders, one interest with varying facets)

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digging on footpaths is not cool

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+1 Lifer and littlemisspanda

Yes it's daft but there's much worse they could be doing.

muddyfunster, apologies maybe I mis-took you post. I'm not sure )

what could be better turn up for four years then **** off back to wherever they came from.

Whether we like it or not we are all ambassadors for the sport and its a sad fact that people always remember the worst examples , so if i ride to work I'll be passed by dozens of cars but will tend to whinge about the ones that cut me up etc. In the same way walkers will pass loads of mountain bikers but you bet your boots that when they're talking afterwards they'll remember the tool that rode badly or wrecklessly near them .

Approach the council or local ranger about arranging trail building days for the youths.
Teach them and get them involved use schools, clubs like the scouts or local cycle clubs.
There's bound to be a piece of land that needs clearing up nearby ie old brown field sites etc.
That's what they did local to me, there's even moneys there just for these projects.
But we all need to get involved more in our community.

I'd have to say there are a small minority who give the rest of us a bad name. It doesn't take much to keep relationships with other trail users on the friendly side. Over our way it's usually slow down, say a cheery hello and wish them a nice day. If you can get the hello and have a nice day in before they can get the "you shouldn't be riding here" (we are generally allowed to ride where we ride!) they are left too shocked that those evil heathens whose only purpose is to make their day hell are actually a friendly bunch to give out to you and usually end up wishing us a friendly "have a nice day" back.

On the other hand, blasting past a group of special needs hikers on a multi-use trail with full face helmets (where it's not needed) and wreckless disregard for others and then giving the finger to one of the group leaders who complained, does not do much to endear us to the general population. This instance actually happened on one of my local trails last summer. After that incident the local council nicely asked bikers to stop using that trail and many did. Traffic on that trail seems to have reduced and the only people I've seen down it in daylight hours lately have been the full-face brigade. I still use the trail after dark in the winter months when there is no issue with meeting anybody else on the trail never mind having any conflict with hikers.

Some of the tourist areas over here have signs on all trails asking for tolerance on both sides between hikers and bikers. In my experience there are just as many (or even more) bikers who are not tolerant and respectfull of hikers as there are hikers who are intolerant of [b]freindly[/b] bikers.

ian martin, that's more of what I'm asking about. I'll ask the CTC about it since they're involved at Aston Hill. I think the fun to many of any age is the local spot, the digging something secret side of it but it seems to be less secret and too obvious in many places.

I also found this - http://imba.org.uk/local-access-forums/

Mountain biking has certainly come a very long way from it's roots - bikes, equipment, trails and riders...

The mentality described above links back in to the old Trail Centres vs "natural" rides debate.

10 years ago riders trundled off the CyB or Afan for an occaisional blast on a purpose built trail - with the majority of riding done on "normal" (ie shared) trails.

Over the last few years there seems to be an attitude of "lets build a "trail centre" type run (or those sort of featrues) in our local woods / trails.

IMO Trail centres have also attracted a different type of "intake" into the sport. For all the people I used to know who were into mtb (early 90s or so), it was an extension of their other "outdoors" sports - climbing, mountaineering, caving, canoeing, fell running even (almost no crossover with road riding 😉

That background tends to come with an ingrained respect for the outdoors. A desire to go to the wilder places and to have minimal impact.

Today the sport is much more popular - with the yoof and the middle agers who formerly (prob still do) chase small white balls and wear Pringle jumpers.

We need to get back to the well known outdoors philosophy

"Take only memories, leave nothing but footprints"

rkk01

well put , thats what I mean , I often walk and would be pissed off if someone came flying accoross the trail out of control , people have made jumps in woods near me within 3 miles of lee and cragg quarries .

Maybe we should lobby government.
1 pumptrack per 1000 homes.

ian martin - Member
Approach the council or local ranger about arranging trail building days for the youths.
Teach them and get them involved use schools, clubs like the scouts or local cycle clubs.
There's bound to be a piece of land that needs clearing up nearby ie old brown field sites etc.
That's what they did local to me, there's even moneys there just for these projects.
But we all need to get involved more in our community.

I totally agree with this, the problem certainly in my local area is that cuts to youth services have severely impacted funding that is available to do these things with young people. There was a young people's participation forum which used to discuss the building and maintenance of amenities for kids and young people but they axed it, so of course the local yoof are pretty peed off there is nobody to listen to them and what they want/need in the local area anymore.

Doesn't make it right for them to stick things on footpaths, but when they say to us "so where are we supposed to practice our skills and freeriding" nobody has an answer. The kids who are from wealthier families get taken to trail centres in the car with bike parks to practice at, but for the kids who rarely get out of the city and whose families can't afford to do that, they are more likely to be the ones building their own.

Don't get me wrong I'm absolutely not advocating people doing antisocial things and spoiling other's enjoyment I just know from my work with young people that they can feel frustrated that there is nowhere for them to do these things and no resources to help them do it safely and out of the way of others who may be annoyed by it.

 

As an aside, I think it's interesting that one of the Peak District Bridleway descents ([url= http://g.co/maps/myd66 ]from A north to B here[/url]) has been moulded by (as I understand it) Peak Rangers to be more jumpy/flowy/burmy for bikes.

Since then, it's been tweaked a bit more (by them or by visitors, I don't know).

It's now a really fast descent with a couple of areas where you can come upon walkers very quickly indeed. When we've done it, the walkers have been very friendly and obviously stood at the side while we pass, but I can imagine it not always being the case.

I've wondered a couple of times whether this is the right approach or not. It's certainly more fun than it used to be in stark contrast to the nearby Chapelgate fiasco.

rkk01 - Member

Over the last few years there seems to be an attitude of "lets build a "trail centre" type run (or those sort of featrues) in our local woods / trails.

I think you need to get some new lenses for your rose tinted specs, they are hindering your hindsight. People have been building trails long before trail centres appeared. Some of these trails even had (perish the thought) jumps and berms. Just because you weren't aware of it, doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

Another great idea being implemented locally is to use people on 'community service' to build/ repair trails.
We get work for free and they get transferable skills and a sense of achievement.

FunkyDunc - Member

Same goes for Esholt woods where there is old bits of wood and nail littered around...

Where? I ride there a lot, I rode there yesterday, never seen a nail or plank of wood.

Speaking of Esholt wood, IMO that is an example of doing it right. There are DH trails that see regular use, these trails were not built on footpaths/bridleways therefore only MTBers use them. This keeps us all Happy from my point of view. The DH/Freeriders ride their own dug trails, I ride the bits of singletrack usually in the mornings/evening when trail traffic is low so I can enjoy myself more and I don't piss off/scare walkers and the walkers walk along the main path.

Where I ride in Esholt wood, I am the "Yoof" but on an XC bike, and its blokes 25 - 35 who ride the dug DH trails. TBH I have probably scared more people as I am dressed in black and ride a silent singlespeed fast 😈

You can see the multicoloured in yer face DH guys coming a mile off.

Main point: I don't think hat there is any thing wrong with jumps and "rad" trails, in fact it's a good thing, more riders in the woods (so you can pinch an inner of them, or a multitool. More people about to help you when you have an off too). However When trails are made without consideration for other trail user, then it is a problem since it affects other users. I think people who want to do DH/freeride should make their own trails which only they will use, since those trails are specialized and require modification of the terrain.

rkk01, i understand the (good) point about backgrounds, I think it's part of the reason things have changed but like me talking about my yoof on bikes, times change and I'm sure we're all accepting of that. Maybe others have seen it coming, for me I only recently realised that times could be changing for the worse. Pressure on space, social media, etc could be against us.

What it's come to for me is that I've realised having a blind-eye to these things isn't sustainable and I've got in touch with a few people about what I may be able to help with to maintain access as well as the jumps where possible. There doesn't seem to be any answers apart from self-policing that risks conflict with rider groups, or a more united direction on things from more of us talking to IMBA and the local access groups.

Out of interest, are many here involved in that kind of thing? Can anyone point me to a good place to start apart from IMBA (who I mailed this am)? Thanks

I think you need to get some new lenses for your rose tinted specs, they are hindering your hindsight.

Not at all

People have been building trails long before trail centres appeared.

Did I say there was [u]no[/u] trailbuilding in the past???

- the difference is in the scale - the number, the size of trail features etc

The OP refered to more capable bikes and riders.

My "rose tinted" spectacles remember that XC and DH races were ridden by the same riders, that 80mm of elastomer front suss was an innovation. DH bikes were still hardtails. I do not believe that these memories have been corrupted by my specs, they are correct, yes?

Yes, trails were built in the woods.
Mostly they were "cheeky" xc trails. The kids on their bmxs would put a few scaffold planks over an old drum etc. The mtb kit wasn't up to ladders, see-saws, big drops and gap jumps

Just because you weren't aware of it, doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

maddyfunster, do you think it's become more widespread in the last few years? I've always known of cheeky DH runs since I started riding, but in the SE there's more appearing IMO, it could just be my perception or the less subtle nature of them though.

Actually I don't have much of a problem with a bunch of kids building a few ramps in a little-used wood up the road as long as they don't endanger or hinder anybody who wants to use a public footpath or bridleway. The trail-building I have seen is done fairly discretely in un-frequented areas and at least they are getting out and doing something constructive for the benefit of themselves and their mates. I don't even view them as mountain bikers, more kids who like to jump their bikes over things. I occasionally see them trudging on foot up an easy road climb near my home, helmets hung over the bars and bikes too heavy to ride.

However generally speaking, I have become completely disenchanted with mountain biking. When I started from a mountaineering background in 1988 you used the bike as a means to travel in open country and cover big distances. Since then we've seen the appearance of trail centres, the massive growth in numbers and the marketing of mountain biking as a cool glamorous money-making sport. I began to question the whole thing when I got involved in informal clubs and found myself charging around the countryside with big groups of people who had no respect for country lore and who didn't have a clue how to study a map and work out an enjoyable legal route but viewed any trail as theirs to ride, who abused pedestrians and drivers, ignored the Highway Code and dropped litter and held up their club-mates because they were ill-prepared and ill-equipped. I tried a few trail centres and found them boring, repetitive and overcrowded, was shocked at the litter and the lack of consideration towards slower riders, the boorishness and egotism of a few riders and their lack of interest in the countryside around them.

So yes, the mountain bikers themselves have played a big part in my loss of interest and my move to road riding.

rkk01, the way bikes and riding have progressed is part of it. Progress is good, I don't think we're against that in any way, but I will say it has a negative side. I'm at a bit of a loss to say whether it's just inevitable that it will promote more conflict so it needs more active advocacy, or if it's a minority issue that I'm becoming more aware of.
But if i'm aware of it, others probably are too - like the guy who ranted at me calling me an 'ars3hole mountain bike who causes more damage to the chilterns than the HS2 will' while his wife filmed it on her phone on saturday - that's rare, but becoming more common. That, and the trail features, clicked loudly as a link that day. There's anti mtb idiots everywhere but maybe they have more ammo to fire now.

(globalti, there's still great expanses of XC for old-schoolers who like to be self-sufficient.. I hear some of what you say, but there's no reason to be put of MTB due to that side of it?)

muckytee - Up the main track from the Esholt car park, ok I'm talking probably 4 years ago now, but there was quite a bit of North Shore stuff that was in bits on the right hand side towards the top.

Its not safe to let your dog wander through stuff like that.

I understand from more recent commments on here though that it has now been rebuilt... for the next 2 years before it becomes unpopular again

globalti - Yep, pretty much where I was coming from.

Rather than being disillusioned with mtbing, I've reverted to local riding from the door. Lucky enough to live somewhere with country lanes, woods, fields, "mountains" and forest all in pedalling distance

I've seen the sort of behaviour the OP describes locally and it can be fairly appalling.

Yes comparisons between then and now can be rose-tinted, but seems that while cheeky trails used to be built by moving a few branhes and leaf litter and riding in a line, nowadays a lot of the FR/DH crowd start by skimming off the top layer of the soil and making a really wide track. Next stage is to build a load of jumps, usually with hidden pits top fall into because they can't/won't move enough earth from places off the line, and berm all the corners because of some preconceived idea of what a DH track should look like.

That said, the people building this sort of stuff devote a lot of time and energy to it, knocking the jumps down won't stop them, and complaining about it on a forum mostly frequented by older XC riders is the equivalent of putting an angry note in a bottle and chucking it into the sea.

Can anyone point me to a good place to start apart from IMBA (who I mailed this am)?

The Forestry Commission tend to be open-minded about rider-built stuff if it's done appropriately. It can depend on what region you're in or who you talk to, mind.

AlexSimon - Member

As an aside, I think it's interesting that one of the Peak District Bridleway descents (from A north to B here) has been moulded by (as I understand it) Peak Rangers to be more jumpy/flowy/burmy for bikes.

Since then, it's been tweaked a bit more (by them or by visitors, I don't know).

You think the Peak District National Park Authority has been deliberately adapting a track to make it more fun for mountain biking?

Is this more of a southern problem rather than a northern one?

The Forestry Commission tend to be open-minded about rider-built stuff if it's done appropriately. It can depend on what region you're in or who you talk to, mind.

unfortunately it doesn't sound that way here, but maybe it's worth trying again )

..Doesn't make it right for them to stick things on footpaths, but when they say to us "so where are we supposed to practice our skills and freeriding" nobody has an answer. The kids who are from wealthier families get taken to trail centres in the car with bike parks to practice at, but for the kids who rarely get out of the city and whose families can't afford to do that, they are more likely to be the ones building their own.

Don't get me wrong I'm absolutely not advocating people doing antisocial things and spoiling other's enjoyment I just know from my work with young people that they can feel frustrated that there is nowhere for them to do these things and no resources to help them do it safely and out of the way of others who may be annoyed by it.

I'm not disagreeing here and may sound out of touch, bear with me, but is it a case of mis-matched expectations and aspirations? Or a sense of entitlement rather than a make-best-of apporoach? I don't want to be teh grumpy old man, I'm not that old ) , but when I was younger a 15-40 mile round trip on a bike to ride good XC / DH was normal to us. As was riding to school. An older generation would go further for less from what I undersand. Now i see kids ferried everywhere, so I wonder if there's less of the can-do approach? I don't blame them btw - attitudes change between generations. Also making your own scene is an important thing when you're younger and a jump spot is a great scene to build. I'm interested in your opinion as someone closer to them than me, as I'm feeling like I should be acting on my general concern here. Local pump track, IMBA / FC etc.

[b]BadlyWiredDog[/b]

You think the Peak District National Park Authority has been deliberately adapting a track to make it more fun for mountain biking?

I do think you have a point there. The whole point of the youth forum in my area was to give some agency/ownership to young people and some responsibility for achieving the things they wanted and not just having it handed on a plate. That way if they wanted a jump track locally they could get the money, build it with some help and shape it into what they wanted.

I agree that our generation was different (I'm aorund the 30 mark). We used to happily ride off for the day into the countryside but most kids I work with would not be allowed to. Parents seem to be much more risk-averse. Lots of schools where I live have banned riding to school because of the problem of expensive bikes being nicked/trashed, as well as the safety issues of traffic round schools and inconsiderate idiots in 4x4's dropping their kids off and no consideration for speed or road markings in school zones.

Parents seem happier to ferry their kids almost 2 hours to a place like Dixons Hollow at Dalby so they can watch them do their thing and somehow it makes them feel better about the prospect of them having an accident than if they had an accident whilst riding with their mates in the local woods unsupervised.

I was actually at Dixons Hollow yesterday on a separate note and was disheartened to find adults behaving quite aggressively towards some of the kids there, not leaving enough time for the kids to get round the tracks in their own time and coming up behind them quickly, railroading them. Disappointed me - we should be encouraging the younger generation of MTB-ers not pushing them off the tracks because they get in the way of those who want to go faster.

This is one of the most interesting posts I have ever read on STW. Some interesting observations that I too have had but never commented on as I thought it was just me. Like seeing kids pushing bikes with full facers hanging off the bars along relatively flat roads. I always held the maxim "If you can't ride back don't ride there" I started MTB'ing in the late 80's and I guess if you've never being openly laughed at and pointed at by people as you ride past on your mtb wearing a helmet, I guess you would think that all the trails belong to you alone. One thing still bugs me though and it isn't the "yoof" it's the middle agers (although I am getting there myself). I regularly see groups of mtbers on nice expensive bikes when I am out on my bike and am amazed when they don't even look towards you to acknowledge you to say hello. Again I suppose this is due to being around when there was just me and a few mates and you rarely saw another mtber. As said on here its the price for the sport being more mainstream and heavily marketed I suppose. No community feeling anymore?

FunkyDunc - Member

muckytee - Up the main track from the Esholt car park, ok I'm talking probably 4 years ago now, but there was quite a bit of North Shore stuff that was in bits on the right hand side towards the top.

Its not safe to let your dog wander through stuff like that.

I understand from more recent commments on here though that it has now been rebuilt... for the next 2 years before it becomes unpopular again

My understanding is it was Yorkshire Water (who own the land?) who took it down and left the debris.

Current building up there is more natural/slightly more subtle - but there are still some 'gap jumps' that go across the main trail that comes out the back of the car park near Esholt Farm.

I've seen pictures of the riders taping off the track and putting spotters in place whilst hitting the gaps/drops, which whilst not perfect at least shows a sense of appreciation for other trail users.

The perpetrators in the OP will learn to be more subtle with their trailbuilding if their jumps in obvious places keep getting flattened.

It's a really great thing that there are so many young people riding bikes and being enthusiastic enough to build jumps.

If they're anything like me when I was young, they probably don't see it as a "sport", just what they enjoy doing.

That's what I was told. Of course, it's second hand information and I didn't physically witness them doing it, but I heard it from two independent sources. I'd be interested in hearing 1st hand info either way.

I guess Bruce, who posts on here as 'oldagedpredator' would know for sure, but I'd be surprised if the PDNPA was building jumps and berming corners on a bridleway - fwiw, the lower part of that track was always pretty much like that, though the middle bit was a mess of ribboned tracks that was had to pick a clean line through.

lmp- We can't do alot about risk-averse parents and the affect it has on the children, that's the world we're in. Problem I'm seeing is that risk-aversity is there in the landowners too.. easier to ban people / bikes than fear being sued.

Thinking about it, I can't remember the last time i saw a small group of 12-15yr olds riding anywhere but a DH / jump spot. Is that related to their view of what's cool (my guess) or not being allowed out for a day-ride like I used to (hope not, but maybe?). I know a friend who runs a shop all but gave up taking younger riders on XC trips due to insurance and liability 'red-tape'.

I can see how kids get despondant..!

If we assume / generalise that adults know better when it comes to digging in prominent places and see the reasons why young riders dig in daft places, answers / conclusions are forming.

If they're anything like me when I was young, they probably don't see it as a "sport", just what they enjoy doing

A valid point that I'd overlooked.. I was assuming they used myface.com etc and read MBUK but maybe not.
I'll admit I have in the past removed fresh earth+woodwork in places that really were daft, but it seems a less constructive way of directing people's efforts.

Thinking about it, I can't remember the last time i saw a small group of 12-15yr olds riding anywhere but a DH / jump spot.

I'm not just being contrary, but yesterday I met about five kids this age riding XC on a selection of crap bikes.

I got a little bit stoked.

🙂

mini-stoke for kids-xc )

jumpers for top-tube pads eh

If they're anything like me when I was young, they probably don't see it as a "sport", just what they enjoy doing.

I think there's some truth in that too....

XC riding doesn't have the same "cool" appeal as DH/freeride - some of them would see it as what their parents (and youth workers) like to do, and therefore very uncool! It worked the same for me when I was younger, my parents were into their cycling but it was touring bikes/hybrids and off roading for them was a canal path....when I was 11 I was determined to have a MTB and go off roading and I wouldn't have been seen dead doing the type of cycling they did! However I had mates to ride with and we just used to go off and explore.

And yes, it is also a health and safety minefield to take groups of younger riders out and get them enjoying the trails. Maybe if they did get a chance to see what's out there on natural trails and in the countryside they might see more appeal in it....

It's funny but I can't remember the last time I experienced user conflict or came accoss a shonky piece of questionable trail alteration. I ride a lot all over the country on numerous trails and would struggle to recall any poor behaviour. In my experience, most folk are more than alright but there is the odd exception in any walk of life who can't see beyond their own little world.

Last week when taking my daughter to nursery through Kelvingrove Park in Glasgow, there was a team of workies from the Council cleaning up the litter that was strewn across the park. Nice weather seems to bring out the selfish ejits who drop bottles, litter, fags, portable barbeques etc at their arse once they have finished with them. It looked like someone had emptied the bins over the grass and just walked away. It wouldn't surprise me if the same folk were the first in the queue to complain about the mess. The lack of common sense and general respect for the environment and other people is depressing.

Similarily, when climbing Ben Lawers with the bike the Sunday before, near the summit we passed a pile of curiously brown toilet paper on the path from An Stuc. Clearly, someone had succumbed to the need to poo in the open air but couldn't make it off path. Yeuch!

I guess the lesson is that there are tools in all walks of life. I can see no reason why mountain bikers should be any different. I guess it gives me impetus to be extra polite and smiley when out and about on my bike and prove that not everyone on a bike is a chump! 😀

sanny you're right on the tools point.. and a good reason to be cheery, agreed. unf for us bike-tools plus a ride in normal biker use can get us banned from an area in a worst-case situ, tools in parks and on foot (and cars, in pubs etc) are just the worst side of everyday people and not seen as 'minorities' that can be regulated in the same restrictive kind of way. I know it rarely comes to a ban, but the pressure is there and i think it can be more easily done by the FC / a landowner?

+1 OP

It has been going on since at least the mid 90s tho'. Someone dismantled a drystone wall on Longridge Fell back then to try and make a cheeky muddy trail (the one East of the trig point) more rideable and next thing there were No Cycling signs appearing at the entrance to footpaths.

The cheeky jumps in the woods were I live now have been abandoned as the youths have graduated to mini-motos through the crops cos its more extreme* innit.

* By "extreme" I mean, "easier to go fast by twisting a throttle instead of using legs and lungs". They are nice lads but lazy and thick.

as to middle aged storm troopers who drive like *ts on narrow lanes in their hurry to get to ride and then ride like *ts on shared paths - think you find more people have a problem with that type of behaviour than building jumps

Most young people i have met have been great chatting and out having a good time, build but not on the footpath.....30 ft away in the tress great.

Littlemisspanda..youth services cuts are truley terrible..

@littlemisspanda - you have seen Ali G haven't you?

as to middle aged storm troopers who drive like *ts on narrow lanes in their hurry to get to ride and then ride like *ts on shared paths - think you find more people have a problem with that type of behaviour than building jumps

agreed these people.....i passed a load same age as me mid to late 40s said hello and no response saw them later blasting down a footpath, rode a couple of miles and found them again to be asked did i have a tool kit as they has a puncture and no tool kit

IMO Trail centres have also attracted a different type of "intake" into the sport. For all the people I used to know who were into mtb (early 90s or so), it was an extension of their other "outdoors" sports - climbing, mountaineering, caving, canoeing, fell running even (almost no crossover with road riding

That background tends to come with an ingrained respect for the outdoors. A desire to go to the wilder places and to have minimal impact.

Today the sport is much more popular - with the yoof and the middle agers who formerly (prob still do) chase small white balls and wear Pringle jumpers.

On the other hand, blasting past a group of special needs hikers on a multi-use trail with full face helmets (where it's not needed) Traffic on that trail seems to have reduced and the only people I've seen down it in daylight hours lately have been the full-face brigade. I still use the trail after dark in the winter months when there is no issue with meeting anybody else on the trail never mind having any conflict with hikers.

Yes, I really think we should continue to demonise people who dress or ride differently from ourselves. The way I ride, the bike I ride, where I ride, when I ride what I wear and how I wear it all demarcate me as the one who is righteous. And I have obviously been riding the longest as well.

Does anyone else see a pathetic irony emerging in this thread? A certain type of mountainbiker attempting to pigeon hole every other type of mountain biker into groups based on assumptions drawn from how they dress ?

Meanwhile, on a rambling forum ......

When I was a kid 20 years back, everyone used to go to chertsey park to ride the jumps and berms and stuff there, sort of unofficial but tolerated jump spot. Every so often at that kind of place some busybody would come and moan at you, but it didn't stop anyone riding or building. That was on 10 speeds, girls bikes etc. I guess some kids have fancier bikes, but I dunno how much has really changed except for the size of the jumps?

@ nick - not recently no!

joemarshall +1

Did none of you lot ride BMXs? When I was a kid we wouldn't just dig jumps. We'd regularly 'liberate' materials from building sites (4x2, plywood) and (badly) construct the most dangerous and ill-conceived structures, then launch ourselves off them on our bikes.

The nice middle class kids a few miles up the road used to get their parents to use their influence on the local council to get them skateparks and stuff built.

This was just our equivalent

Mountain bikers are there own worst enemies, but they haven't got the sense to be anything but.

The whole cheeky trail thing is simply riding where you shouldn't; it may be stupid, it may be archaic, it maybe indefensible, but the flip side is worse.

Now people see any bit of land where they can ride as fair game for jumps and berms and so on, and this is making the problem into one of increasingly visible anti-social behaviour.

I walked around our local country park, which backs onto Access land over the moors, only to see tyre tracks ripping up the edges of a recently restored vegetation planting session designed to reduce the erosion at the moor edge. This is local riders, not kids, on big travel bikes looking for a thrill and not giving a crap.

"there is nothin round ere in Staines for us kids to do except..."

reels off long list.

neanwhile the lads next door I alluded to do not have a pot in which to piss but seem to find fun things to do to occupy their time without the need for youth services.

pathetic irony

joemarshall, very true, but if it's in one tolerated spot it's never an issue, there's a spot like that not far from Aston Hill and it seems to be accepted for now, it's the random stuff that crosses well-walked paths that I'm talking about.

I'm not sure if picking out a few stereotypes has much to do with this, we all ride so it's a problem for any of us where there's stuff built that is too obvious / dangerous etc. Riding it or turning a blind eye as I would makes me part of the issue to an extent. Woburn was threatened with closure, Cranham area has had a long process to avoid a ban, etc. It's not a new problem but the way it's publicised and reacted to certainly is changing.

How many on here do get involved with any access groups, or have any experience in this area to share?

Unless I'm very much mistaken, this photo (taken from the Cotic Rocket demo article on this very website) http://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/cotic-rocket-cleared-for-take-off/

[img] [/img]

Shows riders here

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=425475&Y=375637&A=Y&Z=115&ax=425478&ay=375637

A popular footpath in the busiest National Park along Curbar Edge. One could argue that journo's should be advocates of our sport and promote good practise, whereas these photo's published on what is quoted as being the busiest bike forum would suggest that they encourage the use of illegal trail riding. Perhaps the worst case of MTBers being our own worst enemies?