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Right, I've had enough, my Canyon Spectral is going.
What can I get that is slightly higher and won't annoy me with pedal strikes?
I only ride in The Peak.
Cheers,
Mick
Have you looked at crank length/pedal type/sag? What setup do you have right now?
My guess is a Canyon will have a conservatively high bottom bracket already so most similar bikes will be as lo or lower.
What George said.
Shimano make a nice SLX crankset in 165mm - which I've recently fitted to my bikes.
Assuming you're not a beanpole, there's a school of thought that most people are on too long cranks anyway.
I only ride in The Peak
Wasn't there a funny video/song about that?
AFAIK there’s nothing unusual about any Spectral’s BB height, so I doubt you’ll find anything that’s a lot higher. Running less sag can raise your BB more than swapping to a higher bike so I’d try that first.
You’re doing it wrong
How much sag, how much compression and what length cranks (and pedal width)?
Yeah yeah, I know I've heard all that bad technique nonsense before. Not interested in those types of comments.
I don't think it's sag, I have shoved loads more air in and it doesn't help.
Cranks are 170.
Yeah pedals don't help. I'm on big plastic flats at the moment, I might swap to egg beaters.
Is there a 165mm crankset available anywhere?
What can I get that is slightly higher and won’t annoy me with pedal strikes?
Ignore BB, concentrate of the suspension action. If the Spectral (which has a perfectly average BB height) isn't doing it for you, then it's either 1. those big flappy pedals, 2. suspension not being supportive just where it needs to be or lastly 3, pedals at 12/6 o'clock.
“ I don’t think it’s sag, I have shoved loads more air in and it doesn’t help.”
That doesn’t make a lot of sense. Roughly speaking, 150mm bike with a low BB is at 330mm static. Typical is 340mm. High is 350mm.
Run 20% sag and the bike sits 30mm lower. 25% and it’s 37.5mm. 30% and it’s 45mm. 35% and it’s 52.5mm (I run about this much sag on my full-sus).
330mm BB with 20% sag is 300mm BB when you’re on the bike.
350mm BB with 30% sag is 305mm BB when you’re on the bike.
Then pedal it up a hill and the bike with less sag will squish less when under power and/or angled uphill, making the suspension set-up even more significant.
I know I’ve heard all that bad technique nonsense before.
It's not nonsense.
Is there a 165mm crankset available anywhere?
Set up stock alerts with your retailers of choice, I found they came in stock quite quickly (then sold quickly too).
And does your bike feel wallowy / prone to bobbing?
Do you have the ability to dial more LSC on the shock?
When are you getting pedal strikes?
You could video your self on a section where you are getting pedal strikes to see what is really going on.
There is so much to look at before spending money on fixing the problem.
Could be rebound damping is too slow or compression damping too fast, what volume spacers have you got in?
Is your suspension setup correctly if you have tried adding loads of air?
You could raise the back end with offset bushing in the shock mounts and probably increase fork travel a little, these would raise the bike but still keep suspension in the right sag setup.
I get them most when I'm climbing. Last night we were in and out of 3 Shires.
Yes, I can avoid using technique but I love technical climbing and this bike is making it too frustrating to really push in the challenging climbs. It makes climbs which are already hard even harder.
A quick measure suggests that the centre of the BB is 330mm unloaded.
No volume spacers. I'm 77kg.
Not sure if it is correctly setup, I have tinkered with it several times. This is my first full suss.
The instructions suggest 180psi based on my weight. I have tried that.
I currently have 200psi in.
If I setup 20% sag, this is less that 180psi which I have also tried.
Mick
Is it the model of spectral(2018?) that originally came specc'd with 2.6" tyres and have you since swapped them for something smaller?
Shorter cranks
Offset bushing
Shock tokens
Cheaper and less hassle than a new bike.
I had this issue with my Occam which needs a ridiculous psi in the shock for my 70kgs. Also fitted a bigger shock token which helped. I still get the odd strike when descending with pedals level but it's much less frequent.
Do you lock it out for climbs? Makes a massive difference.
It's the 2019 original tyres 2.40.
What rear hub is on there, and how many poe?
I also ride the peak and agree that technical climb pedal strikes can be a pain but having a rear hub with a fairly quick pick up helps a lot with being able to usefully clock the cranks to avoid pedal strikes.
Yes I do lock it out.
Found an MBR review which measures the BB height of that one at 331mm so you’re correct in it being very much on the low side of normal.
Can you use offset bushings backwards to lengthen the shock or do they always rotate round to the shortest length? Longer shock? Longer fork? Bigger tyres?
What sag % are you measuring on the shock? Seated or standing?
Liteville frames used to have a higher BB than most.
Throwing in another variable.
I have found that a rear hub with superfast engagement, like an I9 Hydra, is a huge help on tech climbs. You can always adjust you cranks and have instant drive so you naturally get less strikes.
You could go for bigger tyres as well then, eh?
Yes you can use offset bushings to make it longer, I've even used them at the side to get more clearance for a wider shock body to stop it fouling on the frame with no problems.
I think I'm just going to get rid.
I've put up with it for two years and I hate it. I'm not going to spend more cash to try and fix it. It's a downhill bike despite what the marketing says.
I prefer my 10 year old Yellowstone.
Er, has it just gone on eBay?
Fair enough.
So returning to the thread title, Cotic make a point of having high-ish BBs, IIRC.
They specifically say it's because the Peak is a bit bumpy.
I prefer my 10 year old Yellowstone.
What's that?
If you want something higher, most bikes will be (don’t get the last Stumpjumper Evo!) A lot of bikes have flipchips so you can raise them a bit. Banshee Spitfire would be a safe swap, I think all the parts fit, 160mm fork, set the dropouts high and it’ll stay higher as you pedal too.
a downhill bike despite what the marketing says
🤣😂 You have some strange ideas.
Nope not on eBay until I find a replacement.
It's more of a downhill bike than it is an xc bike so I see what you're getting at. Sounds like a short travel 29er would be more suitable.
Sounds like a short travel 29er would be a good option - you’ll just have to look at geometry charts to look for one with the least bb drop possible. ‘Down-country’ as a niche probably fits the Peaks well - but may have low bb’s for railing corners.
Stuff like:
Trek Top Fuel
Transition Spur
YT Izzo
Orbea Oiz
Might be worth a look.
As an outside cheaper option it might be worth checking the Sonder Cortex.
Edit - geometry geeks website is useful for comparing bike geometry - out of the above lists it suggest the Trek Top Fuel has the highest BB at 343mm.The rest are very close to what you have already.
The Cotic Flaremax is very close to the Top Fuel bb height - but it’ll be quite significantly heavier.
Yeah I was thinking of a budget one. £2k rather that £4k.
Do you want jam on it as well lol?
Secondhand Top Fuel maybe?
Maybe just have a play around with geometry geeks and see if you can find something unusually high off the ground that’s also in stock and cheap 🤷♂️
A DH bike might be more what you are after, to be fair…
So returning to the thread title, Cotic make a point of having high-ish BBs, IIRC.
Do they?
FWIW my Flaremax feels a low BB, and with a -2 headset feels even lower.
I prefer low, makes it more stable on the steep/rocky/fast trails around here.
Wouldn't even mind going back to a hardtail.
Do they?
I clearly remember them literally claiming that they avoid low BBs because of the uniquely demanding nature of the riding in the Peak District 😉
Current FlareMAX is listed at 32mm BB drop. Not particularly low for a short-ish travel 29er.
"I clearly remember them literally claiming that they avoid low BBs because of the uniquely demanding nature of the riding in the Peak District 😉"
Yes, although they've gradually been getting lower, year by year!
YT Izzo maybe an option.
Why didn't you just say you now want a trendy down country bike?
A what?
Some great advice on here so far, but assuming the OP is going to ignore it all and buy a new bike anyway… Some suggestions of bike brands that tend to err on the taller side for their Geometry still to help…
-Stanton… Won’t be cheap, will be very nicely made and have a tall BB height as Dan Stanton the owner and designer prefers them.
-Kingdom Bikes… Will be even more expensive than a Stanton, will also have a tall BB height.
-Trek… Various models on offer, Trek are always that bit more conservative than most of their peers with geometry, and also most of their full sus models now benefit from having a flippable linkage chip to alter BB height anyway.
I am thinking something with a flip chip would be a good idea.
Not even looked at any of them but they all sound £££.
In reality I think I will wait until more bikes are available, which I guess won't be for some time yet so shorter cranks may be an option.
I don't see that a spacer will help, I'm only 77 kgs.
What bike is best for The Peak is an interesting question. I assume most people ride trail centres and don't do the rocky climbs that we do.
It’s the 2019 original tyres 2.40.
If you want something higher, most bikes will be
22mm BB drop. I believe most bikes have more than that so I'd expect them to be worse.
I don’t see that a spacer will help, I’m only 77 kgs.
If you have no volume reduction spacers in your shock, you could be 50kg and it cause a problem... Weight is irrelevant. It's to do with increasing the progression of the rear suspension as a system. You will be able to run lower pressures for a more supple experience off the top, without blowing through the mid stroke too.
What shock do you have on the bike?
In reality I think I will wait until more bikes are available, which I guess won’t be for some time yet so shorter cranks may be an option.
Some brands are experiencing better availability again already... Not all for sure, but things aren't as bad as they were maybe 3 months ago.
Shorter cranks will make a small amount of difference, but not as much as you might be hoping for I suspect.
What bike is best for The Peak is an interesting question. I assume most people ride trail centres and don’t do the rocky climbs that we do.
I would say you assume wrong... Obviously a lot of people do, but like many/most I know off here, I might ride a trail centre maybe once or twice a year max. The rest of my riding is all natural stuff, often quite rocky (even the Peaks though very occasionally), and I still prefer a bike with a BB height on the low side of normal...
As for what bike? Well, despite my preference for a bike with a lower BB height, I will concede that if your usual riding is the Peaks, the benefits of a lower BB height will be less important (not so many corners to carve) and those techy climbs can mean it's more important than other places to time your pedal strokes right, and that a taller BB height would arguably be a little more forgiving in this case. I don't think I'd want to own something myself with a taller BB height that wasn't adjustable, but if I owned something with a geometry flip chip or some kind of adjustment, I'd run it in the taller position in the Peaks and then drop it into the lower position for riding elsewhere more than likely... That said, I wouldn't obsess about it. I'd argue a steeper seat angle is more important for climbing efficiency still... Oh... And clipless pedals (seriously, if you're pedal striking on flats whilst climbing, ditch the flats first and foremost!)...
“ 22mm BB drop. I believe most bikes have more than that so I’d expect them to be worse.”
Most 29ers do. Most 27.5 full-sus bikes don’t.
Right, I’ve had enough, my Canyon Spectral is going.
What can I get that is slightly higher and won’t annoy me with pedal strikes?
I only ride in The Peak.
Cheers,
Mick
Just buy 165mm cranks, problem pretty much solved. And some Stamp 11s as well, will save another 3mm and 200grammes.
That Starling article is so ****ing stupid. How the bastard hell do they expect to get up hills without pedaling. ****s.
I get them most when I’m climbing. Last night we were in and out of 3 Shires.
Yes, I can avoid using technique but I love technical climbing and this bike is making it too frustrating to really push in the challenging climbs. It makes climbs which are already hard even harder.
Hi Mick. This thread is almost identical to one I posted last year. It was probably that lovely climb from the swimming ponds that I'd just done before I posted.
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/tell-me-about-165mm-cranks-and-ultra-thin-pedals/
165mm cranks.
Oh, and 2.6inch tyres too. Love them.
Don't rule out a shock spacer. For 5 quid on eBay it's worth trying.
Some good advice there mboy. Cheers.
It's a Fox Float DPX2. Currently with 200psi in. It isn't bottoming out.
Yeah the pedals do make it worse. I'm going to swap them back soon.
Cheers davros, Don't mind experimenting for that much. Any idea what size to go for?
Check what size is currently in there. It there's no spacer, I'd try one of the smaller ones. Those are for DPS, looks like you'd need one of these:
I get them most when I’m climbing.
Folk who are suggesting a token/spacer - how is firming up the end of the stroke going to help with this? Further, if he then runs less pressure to compensate, it'll reduce top/midstroke (which is where he'll be at when climbing) support, making it worse.
That Starling article is so **** stupid
"Only" 20mm they say, that's a lot when your pedals are only ~10cm off perfectly level ground at sag with the bike perfectly vertical.
Oh and cheers thegeneralist lots of good stuff there.
Just ordered the pack of 5. Will report back next week.
Folk who are suggesting a token/spacer – how is firming up the end of the stroke going to help with this? Further, if he then runs less pressure to compensate, it’ll reduce top/midstroke (which is where he’ll be at when climbing) support, making it worse.
If it helps reduce pedal strikes on the descents, then it might help him enjoy the bike more. Plus, he doesn't have to reduce pressure after fitting a bigger spacer, which would make it firmer throughout travel, not just at the end. I suggested it as it worked for me, but my issue was more pedal strikes on descents. The lock out on my Occam is super firm so it's not a big issue on the climbs.
If the spectral is very firm when locked out, then I agree a spacer is unlikely to help with climbing strikes.
I've had problems with a low BB in the peaks and a change of shock/shock tune and higher volume/taller tyres made the biggest difference. As has been mentioned an offset bushing, shorter cranks, thinner and smaller pedals, with a less square shape/chamfered edges can help.
Ended up with a Manitou Mcleod which resists pedal bob pretty well and can run higher sag. I am comparing it to a RS Monarch Debonaire (POS) which can't run sag much different than 30% due to the equalisation port and deadspot inherent with the design.
Hi Mick,
MAxxis Rekons generally. Either the Exo or Exo plus ( additional 100g)
https://www.deporvillage.net/maxxis-rekon-29x2-60-exo-3ct-tubeless-ready-tyre-black
《Soz, can't get the link to work, but I'm sure you'll find them on depor》
Also got an Ikon ( very little grip natch)
And a DHF Minnion beast of a thing, which I haven't yet tried.
Love the Rekons on the new carbon wheels. Zingy.
Used then in the Peak, Borrowdale Bash, Lakes 4 passes, Lakes 3 passes, Burnside, Badaguish, Cairngorm, Laggan Wolftrax, ( and llandegla, but that doesn't really count)
BUT note that the rides were all dry. ( god knows how, but they were 🙂 ). Not so sure how they will be in the wet. I guess I should nip out of Laggan Hotel just now and do the Brown and report back, but I can't be arsed washing it and I think we're off canyoning this afternoon)
My latest attempt to reduce pedal strikes arrived today.....
[img] 
[/img]
Whaddaya reckon, must be a good 2.5mm gained here 😀😜
( not to mention 160 grammes)
What did you get?
I'm gonna swap to some One Up Aluminium I think.
Also got the volume spacers so will play with them when I get chance.
The One Up aluminium flats are ridiculously low profile. Really nicely made too.
Them's Stamp 11s
Completely gratuitous extravagance...
But 160grammes man,you can't put a price on that sort of major weight saving 🤪
They look good. But £270!
2.5mm (only the bottom side counts) off the pedals, 5mm off the cranks, all adds up.
The OneUps are 8.3mm leading edge, 12mm centre, convex profile and scary long pins.
Stamp 11s 11mm/13mm, claims a normal concave platform, and I see normal-looking pins.
have the strikes been getting more frequent as time goes on?
the shock may be in need of a service
What bike is best for The Peak is an interesting question. I assume most people ride trail centres and don’t do the rocky climbs that we do.
I love my geometron g13 in the peaks.
Never had too many pedal strikes, one a ride perhaps?
Never put it in the high flip chip setting.
I sometimes run a fox DPS shock sometimes. It gets lots of pedal strikes if I run it in the open setting, a flip to the middle trial setting and it's fine.
The cane creek coil and air shocks I also run are find for pedal strikes.
You could try a shock with more compression damping? Not a cheap fix, but if you can find s second hand shock in the right size it would be cheaper than a new bike. All three of my shocks were second hand, in non covid times. Might be harder to find shocks now
They look good. But £270!
£215 at Winstanleys, but yes you're right.
Removing volume spacers and running less sag will raise the pedalling ride height. Personally I prefer a fair amount of sag and ramp-up on the shock but I like a firmer and more linear feeling fork. I’ve noticed my full-sus sits a fair bit higher and seat angle steeper if I use the shock platform when climbing.
I just can’t stop belly-laughing at that Karpiel/Risse klownbike
(And +1 fatter tyres)
I've been riding a 29er with a 38.5mm bb drop and 175mm cranks with dmr v12's in the peak for last 3.5 years. Did get a few pedal strikes but rarely if the shock was in mid or firm. New bike has option of 30 or 40mm bb drop but with 170mm cranks and vaults. I'm running it low (40mm) and got maybe 2 strikes tonight (when the shock was fully open), but not enough to make me want to flip the chip.
this does feel like a suspension setup issue rather than new bike time (though if that's an excuse that works go for it!).
Cotic. Really not as low as they should be.
this does feel like a suspension setup issue rather than new bike time
Would agree on the descents, but do you think that's also applicable on here climbs?
165mm cranks with oneup alloy pedals and a volume spacer in my shock made a big difference for me.
Would agree on the descents, but do you think that’s also applicable on here climbs?
I only usually get strikes climbing or traversing rutted out stuff, never on the descents. And it's often a sign I left the shock fully open on the last descent 😀 Adjusting to new bike as it's more active (maestro), so need to just make sure I'm not weighting it at the wrong time too. But that should still be only the odd cock-up, not ride ruining.
I've a 2018 Spectral and ride regularly in the Peak, can't say I've had any issues with pedal strikes compared with previous bikes. 2.6 tyres and 170 mm cranks, I weight about 65 kg kitted up, had a Float dps with ~150 psi, now running a coil bomber which has really improved the bike. No idea if that's helpful or not but it suggests it's not an inherent issue with that bike in that location!