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I'm sure many of you, especially those in the south ride on MOD land. As you know, access is governed by the byelaws in place for each area, but typically they allow open access for recreational purposes on foot, and cycle access on roads made up for vehicles. As most MOD ranges are criss-crossed with stone topped tracks, this gives pretty good access, although officially, anything else is off-limits.
Regular cyclists in these area are also aware and respectful of training exercises, so use conflict is minimised. So overall, a reasonable status quo.
BUT recently, I and others have been told to leave MOD land by the wardens - Landmark, who are stating that cycling is not tolerated [u]at all[/u]. We have also been informed that as of this April, the MOD will be carrying out patrols and issuing 1 strike notices if we are caught. A 2nd offence will lead to a £500 fine. 😯
But this does seem to contravene the byelaws governing access. The CTC are aware of this as they believe an ongoing byelaw review may be driving a change in approach to cyclists.
The CTC are urging a response to them directly if you are challenged or removed from MOD land. Link to contact them here:
http://www.ctc.org.uk/news/access-to-mod-land-for-cyclists-big-picture
Please do so if this has happened.
My concern is that the stance of the MOD has moved from tolerant straight to no-cyclists whatsoever regardless of the byelaws that do grant access. I am also concerned that whilst I believe the byelaws support access, I'm probably not going to argue much with a man with a gun who is threatening £500 fines, which seems to be the likely situation in 4 weeks time.
So anyone else in the same boat? About to lose access to an area you've ridden for years? Any thoughts on how to proceed. I'll see what the CTC say and hopefully there will be some movement here.
pressure on training area's is only going to increase as troops return from Germany, the Army is also developing centre's in UK for particular activities and so the use of the area may be changing
I suggest that the Local Access Forum is also informed. They are a statutory body and therefore should have more clout
It's because of the review that is being carried out
https://www.gov.uk/ministry-of-defence-byelaws
either way you look at it access to MOD land is always going to be iffy, you can't just wander through an exercise (it will also stop the pizza delivery man delivering to grid ref on training areas).
Also remember the byelaws on MOD land are "military" and not "civilian", as such mean different restrictions.
here you go a bit of googling gives very clear guidance and reason
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/section-28-directions
Yes, I'm aware of the review, and it is a concern of the CTC. But the current situation is that cyclists are being removed regardless of what the byelaw states.
Most folk are sensible enough not to interfere with military training too, so I doubt there has been a sudden spate of that happening.
Which area was this?
Longmoor, but I believe its the same at Hankley and other sites.
They've said near me (SPTA) that they'll prosecute motor crossers but not sure about bikes. I hope not, although I can stick to bridal/byways.
Sui - the areas concerned are not subject to Section 28 Directions. They are areas identified for the byelaw review though:
I'd be miffed to lose out on riding Tunnle hill etc, but some nights it does feel like hard work trying to avoid exercises, which must be even more infuriating for the soldiers.
big n daft - thanks. I have contacted the South Downs NP Local Access Forum now.
Great time for CTC to make their mountain bike/offroad bloke redundant eh? 🙁
notice that the CTC are taking an interest in the issue, British Cycling wouldn't know what to do with it.
What's the problem? BC are working hard to poach the member base from CTC, less CTC members then less money and influence and the more we get "represented" by an organisation that hasn't got a scooby on mountain biking/ off road access issues
Ian Warby at the CTC is taking this up. He's still there I believe.
Made redundant on Friday apparently 👿
Didn't realise - rubbish news. 🙁
The MOD clearly need to realise that as the population of the UK is increasing said population need somewhere to play too.
How much bloody land do they need FCOL. 😐
The bylaw review has been on the back burner for ages. I did a FOI request for the project plan and was told there wasn't one :-/
Have you had anything in writing to say that Landmarc will be operating a two strike policy? TAG (trail action group) who (try) to look at access issues on the aldershot military lands haven't heard this on the grapevine.
Ewan - nothing in writing. Just the Landmarc warden telling me yesterday. Also he said it wouldn't be Landmarc doing it. It would be MOD personnel doing the patrols, notices and fines, and it would start next month.
Will be interesting as I walk and cycle on Bramshott (almost daily) and Hankley both MOD, near Longmoor and popular with dog walkers, horse riders and cyclists. Would be a real pain if they try to stop us there too. I agree, most of their land is used so infrequently it doesnt make much sense.
Variflex - that's the other thing - the Landmarc warden said this only applies to cyclists. On foot access is unaffected. I can't remember what he said about horse riders.
The MOD clearly need to realise that as the population of the UK is increasing said population need somewhere to play too.How much bloody land do they need FCOL.
In their defence, there's a lot of empty land in this country. You or I are no more restricted from going upto Scotland for a ride than the MOD is for training. We just happen to live in the same area as the barraks. Be greatfull for what we've got, if it wasn't MOD land it would probably have been built on by now, like every other square foot of the area.
How much bloody land do they need
lots, even land that doesn't have troops physically on it has a role in training as you need space to watch and then move into as an exercise progresses
all this at the same time not standing on the rare flowers, digging up the archaeology and firing things that kill people over long distances in a realistic training environment
I, and I'm sure most folk here agree that MOD training land is essential for the viability of the armed services. It's not the amount of land that's the issue; its how access is agreed between the MOD and stakeholders, and then once agreed and published as byelaws, then how the byelaws are interpreted and upheld that's now open to question. I'm trying to find a consultee list for the review at the moment so we know who the likely user group stakeholders are that represent the interests of cyclists - hopefully the Local Access Forum amongst others.
I've had run-ins with Landmarc twice on Longmoor but never on Bramshott (currently completely trashed as they seem to be removing 9 out of 10 trees there and destroying any habitat for anything that existed) and also never on any hassle on Hankley either (troops, film crews all seem friendly there). My wife has also had a heated exchange on Longmoor with the same Landmark employee who has some issues, she was walking the dogs at the time with daughter and grandchild in a pushchair, the fact the dog was off its lead an more than 20ft from them! I'm guessing its the same guy who took stopped you this weekend.
Personally just I just avoid Longmoor these days both for walking and riding as much as I can as its far more relaxing not checking over your shoulder every 30 seconds your out there.
Cycling Ban on permissive tracks
The MoD has now issued a ban on cycling off the bridleways on Hankley Common following an incident involving 15 cyclists and a Landmarc warden:
"From: DIO Ops South
Sent: 04 April 2013 13:37
Subject: Cycling on the DTE Estate
We have received a report this morning that despite one of our Land Wardens asking a group of 20 cyclists to move onto other tracks - particularly as SSE were cutting trees in the vicinity – this warning was ignored.
As a result of this, we can confirm that the default position now applies and that all cyclists must abide by the Byelaws. That is to say, cyclists should stick purely to bridleways and any other public rights of way to which cyclists are entitled to use. No other tracks should be used."
Cyclists involved in this incident and a walker who witnessed it state that there was no tree cutting going on in the area at the time. The tracks that the cyclists were asked to move to were said to be steep, sandy and unsuitable for cycling.
HISTORY
In 2012 Col. Dickie Bishop gave limited permission for cyclists to use some permissive tracks as well as bridleways on Hankley Common in these words:
"The MoD had no objection to 'made-up' permissive paths being used by cyclists, but the use of sand tracks (other than rights-of-way) was not normally permitted, partly for conservation reasons."
Since then efforts have been made to find out just what was meant by "made up" paths. Unfortunately one Landmarc warden has interpreted this in the strictest possible way and has challenged cyclists on tracks that appeared perfectly suitable for their use, so that it has been difficult to tell just where they can go.
This year an Elstead Councillor attended a meeting with the MoD and reported their response on Cycling:
"I explained that cycling groups needed to know why it would not be possible for them to be able to use all the tracks on Hankley which were currently used by MoD vehicles. The answer I was given was that Hankley was not primarily a recreation area – its main function was military training. To open up all vehicular routes to cyclists would seriously compromise training operations. Furthermore, the MoD would not be able to ensure the safety of cyclists using the tracks, given the current and expected intensity of training in the areas concerned. There was also the question of liability and duty of care – would the MoD be responsible if cyclists injured themselves on poorly maintained permissive tracks?
Lt Col Bishop again made it clear that the MoD’s default position was that cyclists should be confined to using the bridleways and that the concession on the use of ‘made up tracks’ was limited essentially to hardened surfaces which could be used by normal vehicular traffic (not 4WDs). It was up to the Parish Councils and cycling groups to try and identify the boundaries of this concession in ways which would enable effective training to continue in a manner which was safe for both troops and cyclists. I am afraid I do not detect any flexibility in the MoD position on this point, particularly in the light of the information on future troop deployment and their concerns about the increased presence of mountain bikers on the permissive pedestrian routes."
ADVICE TO CYCLISTS
Given these rules and the known active application of them by the Landmarc Warden, cyclists should do their best to follow them to avoid the sort of problem that has now arisen.
from here
[url= http://www.surreycommunity.info/elsteadnews/hankley-common/cycling-ban/ ]Source[/url]
so reading from that a group of cyclists got into an argument and instead of doing as they were told, ruined it for everyone else - good work chaps!
As someone who uses MOD land for exercises I can confirm we don't have enough if anything.
I have an exercise booked over a coming weekend and have to share access to the land with 4 other units. The way the land is managed by Landmarc means they try and get as much footfall on to sections of land as possible to show that it is in use and the funding for that land from the MOD will continue.
As a cyclist we have lots of places to play and I'm sure the MOD won't ban cyclists completely but may restrict their movements to certain paths so as the ranges can operate and use the land a bit more efficiently.
[quote=Sui said]so reading from that a group of cyclists got into an argument and instead of doing as they were told, ruined it for everyone else - good work chaps!
There are two sides to that story apparently.
Sui;
agree in general, it's their land and we should avoid conflict where possible. arguing the toss, when most of what we do is permissive in nature, is not a good idea.
However, that was a year ago, and the dust has (had) largely settled on that one.
These new 'initiatives' by Landmarc seem to be largely unrelated to that incident. As Ewan said, would be good to get some hard evidence on this (not disputing what the warden said to Yak, but you don't know whether they are always correct with their information, I've heard conflicting advice from wardens time and again) which groups like the CTC and other local access groups can then take up through official channels.
theotherjonv - You could be right. This could be a warden with a different take on applying the byelaws. So it would be good to hear from other recent encounters, or if there is any hard evidence about a change in 'initiatives'. We'll find out in 4 weeks time regardless though.
just out of curiosity, what do they say when you as joe blogs phones the number on the website?
[quote=big_n_daft ]pressure on training area's is only going to increase as troops return from Germany, True. The MOD have been looking to expand their estate in Scotland to create space for [s]an army of occupation[/s] additional training areas.
phoning who?
these people
Contact detailsDefence Infrastructure Organisation
Byelaws Review Team
PO Box 349
Aldershot
GU11 2WZ
tel: 01252 361986 (answer phone)dio-byelawsreviewteam@mod.uk
or
For further information on access to the Commons telephone 01420 483375.
for Hankely and Elstead commons
at most you'll get re-directed, or told to do one, but if you don't ask you don't get (just as you have done!!)
Never tried. I think as an individual you'll get nowhere. If your concern is part of a wider argument put together by the Local Access Forum (South Downs for here) then they, as a consultee to the MOD for purposes of public land use, should have some influence.
So I'm trying this route at present.
Interesting I was chatting to a LandMarc warden the other week on Salisbury Plain and he was telling me about the issues they have with 4x4's going off piste and having to call the Police when they 'gob off'. They don't seem to have a problem with people using the MoD land along as they stick to the Rights of Way. Also over the last couple of months they have asked people especially 4x4's to stay off the off road tracks and stay on the hardcore tracks due to the damage that is being caused with the rain. A group of 4x4's have even trashed an operational rough runway on the Plain.
I also noticed that they had notices up closing some of the 'dead end' Rights of Way around the Larkhill impact area but were putting in Rights of Way to link up paths around the perimeter. Which I will be keeping an eye on.
It could just be a minority ruining for the majority, but we must remember that the MoD allow us to use 'their' land and having run in's when they ask people to use alternate routes or to stay away from area's is only going to put their backs up and lead to them restricting access and coercing people to go elsewhere i.e. fines etc. Apparently this was done at Deptford Down a few years back when too many photographers started turning up at the airstrip and obstructing air operations, apparently they were not sticking to the byway that runs alongside and wandering all over the airstrip, causing aircraft to abort landings and training. The MoD Police started issuing tickets for cars parked obstructing the byway allegedly.
All,
I can confirm that a meeting was held in Longmoor Camp Liss, at the latter end of last year about the MoD's Estate and it's "Recreational use by Cyclists" in the South East.
The Commander Col Dickie Bishop stated to his Training Area Marshals (Uniformed) and Land Wardens (Non UniformedLandmarc) That ALL Cyclists were to be removed from all local Training Areas with immediate effect, however after the meeting the boots on the ground were not prepared to enforce this and is still the case.
The Hankley Common incident did stir things up a great deal for Cyclists and yes it did not help with the over Zealous aggressive Warden.
Cyclists are Tolerated on The MoD Estate at the moment but incidents like Hankley do not help , so please sign up to these guys [url= http://http://trailactiongroup.co.uk/ ]TAG[/url] who are working to secure access on MoD Land.
If Cyclists don't help themselves you could see the Estate getting fenced off.
Happy Cycling! 😀
Pants - thanks for this info.
Worryingly it seems that Landmarc were giving us a heads-up of next month's possible enforcement of this then.
Here's the link to TAG http://trailactiongroup.co.uk/ it doesn't seem to be working in Pants post.
Cycled through Minley on Sunday, waved and smiled to the gamekeeper and the Landmarc wardens, all of whom replied with a cheery hello. 😀
Thanks natrix. I signed on last night. Maybe its just area specific enforcement.
Martib,
The 4x4s have trashed parts of the plain and as a former user of the Airstrip, I know only too well just how devastating it can be to have that facility put out of use. You won't put a Herc down there at the moment given the conditions but fairly soon it'll dry out and ruts will cause havoc.
The motocross riders that frequent the area are a nightmare. Had a few ride at me, spray me with stones by way of wheel spin and they trash the tracks too. Also lots of litter from them.
Not content with trying to ban cyclists, the army are now trying to ban sandwiches 😯
An update on the TAG website today.
Interesting.
Heaven forbid that cyclist get in the way of all the filming in Hankley!
More Surreywood, than training at the moment.
At least the film crews were polite and surprisingly welcoming.
Still, as always, strategy for MTB is seek not to inflame any situation (so excuse the irony of my sarcasm here,)
At least they're talking; better that than making decisions without any say in the matter
Hi guys, my first post here but came across the thread when looking for more information and thought i'd add an update to the situation. Last week a primary school class having a maths lesson on elstead common were ordered to leave, doing nothing wrong other than assembling a group of people. So this is now a problem on elstead common also and if it persists will mean even families of more than 1 child will be turned away (they said no groups of more than 3)
They were told that they could apply with 2 weeks notice to use the commons but it would be £150 a time for a licence.
I can understand being ticked off for blatantly flouting bylaws but a bunch of 8 year olds being accused of an uprising against the establishment really? The bylaws should be implemented in the way they were originally intended and with discretion, to manipulate their context in this way is bullying and underhand.
Hi. Could you email me (in profile) - would like to understand more of what happened, also heard of a similar incident at fleet ponds.
Sounds like there's a Landmarc jobsworth on the prowl. I've never seen any military activity on Elstead Common (although the signs are up and I would imagine it is used occasionally). That area is awash with families out walking etc at weekends.
Great way to build relations between the local community and the army 🙄
yeah I was surprised about Elstead Common..Hankley I could understand being asked to walk around etc when there's active training but turfing people off, and turfing them off when there's nobody else on there ? Not really 'hearts and minds' I'll drop you note theotherjonv
Not been on the ranges for a while now. I think we should be into the 2-strike policy around here now too if the earlier warning is correct. Not found out yet though.
I noticed last week that the perimeter fence around Ash Ranges is being "upgraded" from the easy to climb over style to higher stuff with barbed wire at the top.
I think thats likely to be for cattle grazing - its the current big thing round here with MOD/SWT partnership managed heathland
[quote=ninfan said]I think thats likely to be for cattle grazing - its the current big thing round here with MOD/SWT partnership managed heathland
The existing fences are more than capable of containing the cattle but yes, hopefully you're right. Must be costing a fair wack, budgets can't be too stretched in the public sector 🙂
People are always on about rebalancing the economy away from London.
I cant see why all MOD land in the south east is nt sold and their bases moved to some where else.
The MOD needs large areas of land and the SE is too congested.
Also the land their bases sit on must be worth a hell of a lot in terms of housing development.
Surely they'd actually make money moving away.
Its a win win.
and the SE is too congested.
So selling off huge areas of unspoilt land and building on it would help how ? 🙂
remove soliders + families = more housing for others ?
How did moving the BBC help ? Presumably by creating jobs else where.
How would moving the MOD be any different it would be creating jobs else where.
The MOD did sell of Land in London to make some dosh - remember Chelsea/Kensington barracks? You also need to remember that troops are returning from Germany so are taking up some of the new developments. a lot of MOD land is SSSI so cannot be used for development. Much of the unused barracks are in the arrse end of nowhere as well.
It not like they haven't been doing that for years though - Para's and Gurkha's are gone from Aldershot/Crookham and their bases turned into houses, loads of the other bases are going - Deepcut to be turned into houses, Chobham, Bordon etc.
more housing for others
Probably worth commenting that they bulldoze and rebuild most of the SFA housing, much of it was in such a sorry state that the councils etc. wouldn't house dogs in it!
The new fencing on Ash Ranges looks to only be in the section that backs onto Ash Vale, I had assumed it was to stop dog walkers getting onto the ranges when the flags are flying. I have seen several walking inside the fence with the flags flying - I know there is no live firing on the perimeter road, but even so they shouldn't be there. The new fencing looks to be fairly dog proof. There are no cattle in this part of the ranges. The fencing in the more 'remote' parts of the ranges was unchanged last time I was there, although notes on the gates saying they will be locked when the flags are flying.
The MOD/DIO have put up new fencing around the impact area's at Larkhill on Salisbury Plain. They have also got RoW changed so that the ones that go inside the impact area are removed and created new ones outside to join up existing RoW, which they have clearly signposted and put up route change notices.
On a ride out the other week I did notice that the new fence had been damaged by one of the old (now extinct) RoW, obviously someone wants to ruin the Public Access for all. Plus they have put in gates to allow troop access, so no excuse for the damage 🙄
[quote=Jason said]The new fencing on Ash Ranges looks to only be in the section that backs onto Ash Vale,
There are signs up about the fencing replacement being an ongoing project. The section I noticed was the access point at the top of Surprise Hill (Ash).
right...I have the full story, and it's resolution..
The class were not told to leave the common. They approached a marshal who was very friendly and talked about what he was doing on the common etc. The marshal asked if they'd informed anyone that they were on the common and gave them a number to call in future so that they could do so.
They stayed on the common for a good hour after speaking to the marshal and later phoned the number from school. The contact wasn't available so they were put through to another person who happened to be a bit too far removed from the local issues and it was over the phone that they had a difficult discussion and were told off by this guy.
Having had a few other phone calls over the last few days, the MOD began to hear rumours of problems and sent a couple of friendly senior chaps to discuss with the head yesterday.
The outcome is that they just want the school to inform them in advance if they're taking responsibility for a group of children on the common so that they can ensure they're going to be in a clear area free of training. They were very keen to build the relationship with the community and welcomed the use of the commons, just want the opportunity to clear areas in advance of groups if there's been recent activity there (especially after night training).
They've offered to draft a statement for distribution to parents and also offered to come in and deliver an assembly...
I don't think there's any suggestion that individuals/families should need to phone in advance..just relating to the school where teachers are taking responsibility for others children...
thanks,
Ant.
Nice one.
Yes good posts. Sounds much more like the Hanley I know and run/cycle across. Always puzzled by the comments about problems there are the army always seem very friendly or oblivious and perfectly happy if you are no getting to the way. I can understand the dog mess problem though expensively in 300m radius of the car parks!
Good stuff Ant, thanks for the update. Sounds like a sensible approach to a solution from both sides.
Wrt mtb'ing - in theory of course we have no rights over these areas, except on row's and made up tracks - whatever that means. So even more important that we behave and act responsibly and politely if challenged. Not everyone at landmarc / dio is out to get recreational users, treat as you'd like to be treated.
just want the opportunity to clear areas in advance of groups if there's been recent activity there (especially after night training).
Thats a very good point - Kids and Pryo 😯
Always puzzled by the comments about problems there are the army always seem very friendly or oblivious and perfectly happy if you are no getting to the way
That has always been my experience as well.
With regards to pyro etc, the ammo bunker at one training area used to have an amnesty box where soldiers could leave stuff that they'd accidentally acquired. Unfortunately it also meant that the local kids knew where to get stuff to play with 😈
If they didn't allow recreational access and use, who would call in the necessary when a fire breaks out and the army aren't present.
Like I just did on Tunnel Hill 🙁
One appliance already there and more coming apparently, on the scrub bit below 'Abbey View'
Lots of bangs as well from discarded live blanks, keeping the fire brigade a bit cautious.
Jon V, please accept a virtual Fireman Sam badge 😀