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Over the past five years the MoD have removed public access to over 1,100 acres of previously accessible land surrounding Aldershot, Farnborough, Fleet, and Camberley. They have removed many of the parking areas that allowed the public to walk their dogs and exercise on the land. The byelaws that give public access to are now being updated after 45 years - there is good reason to think that the new byelaws may further restrict the public's use of the area.
In April and May the public will have a 35 day window to provide comments on the new byelaws. The purpose of this campaign is to keep the community updated and provide practical ways in which we can protect the area for the enjoyment of many generations to come. https://www.byelawsreview.com/ #saveyourwoods
There is also an on line petition https://www.change.org/p/ministry-of-defence-maintain-public-access-to-mod-land-in-aldershot-district-areas
We really need the MTB communities help otherwise once published the MOD will just push it through.
Hi Brennan, I've registered on the campaign website and signed the petition. I would urge anybody who has an interest in maintaining access to the countryside to do the same.
Maybe Singletrack could do an article on this???
Hi have done the same, commented to bump to the top.
Signed and done the same. Is there not something we could do to promote topics like this - so important to the sport and outdoor access in general. Mods & Mark - possible to make this sticky...?
Sigened it. But I feel we may have to join the Army mtb team to actually continue to ride in those places.
If people could also like and share our facebook page, that will help us get the message out.
Thanks!
Signed....
interestingly, the MOD have fairly recently started opening the gates to the Porridgepot area at weekends and giving access again. They'd closed them off a while back. They are closed off mid week though.
Signed. Public access to public land needs protecting.
I've signed up to receive updates when the consultation is open so that I can comment on that. Having started my MTBing life in those woods, I feel duty bound to.
Yeah, it would be great if this was a sticky until the end of April/May consultation period to maximise direct responses.
Just to clarify, does the bylaw review also cover the Longmoor and Bramshott ranges?
Between Fleet and Aldershot on the training ground was where I first started mountain biking in the mid-late 90's. Because I don't live round there any more, is there much point in me signing the petition as a 'lapsed' user? I worry loads of remote respondents would spoil the validity of the petition.
Aldershot Military Lands includes Longmoor and Bramshott, as well as Deepcut, Ash Vale, Pirbright, Arborfield and Sandhurst
Thanks.
My uncle used to ride his bike with his mates around the Ash ranges area, which would have been late 1940's. Obviously not mountain biking, more grass track. I also lived around Cove (1960's) for a while so used to know the area fairly well.
Good luck with the campaign.
For those who don't live locally any more, then it's still worth signing as you never know, you may want to visit mates for a ride soon....
If this happens, this will destroy mountain biking in the local area and will impact a hug number of riders
Signed and will comment directly when the consultation goes live.
Don't we have the Hants access officer on here too? Be worth getting this covered in the relevant (multiple) local access forums.
Signed hopefully this stays open as it's all local to me.
Signed, commenting to bump also.
This saddens me. All users need to organise themselves into one protest group that would be impossible to ignore through sheer number of voices. Are local MPs on board? Have they been spoken to in person as well as by e-mail? Any influential names that could be approached? Bang the drum about mental health and how the countryside can help improve physical and mental wellbeing. Shout out about the number of houses that have been built over the last few decades with ever diminishing green space.
On Salisbury Plain the MOD was able to work together with different Rights of Way users and there was various initiatives to encourage the public to use the open spaces responsibly. Lots of new signs went up so the public were in no doubt where they could and couldn't go.
The oik(s) behind this need to be told that they can't exclusively ride roughshod over this land using taxpayers money. It's not their personal fiefdom.
We endeavoured to engage our local council candidates on the matter during the elections - most didn't give a stuff / didn't consider it to be an important local issue and are more interested in promoting the 10,000 new homes they want to build without any new infrastructure.
When trying to promote engagement on local FB groups, most responses are that the MoD are entitled to do what they want as its 'their' land. My understanding is that because they want to preserve the designated SSI status, they are only permitted so many interventions a year and after they've used up their training allocation, sold-out to paid events then there's no 'quota' left to accommodate public access and therefore want public access tightly controlled.
The irony is that the manpower strength of the Services has reduced by about 60% in the 45 years the bylaws have been in effect and yet they're demanding 'more' access, and at the same time, barely reduced the size of the training estate. 90% of the time I go over there, I'll not see anyone in 'green'
Well, councillors can be self-serving with vested interests unfortunately. The subject of access has been rumbling on for years now hasn't it with Tunnel Hill etc. What areas have SSSI status? I seem to remember near the Old Dean Camberley side was, can't think why though as it just looked like scrubland.
I understood that due to the large numbers of troops who'd returned from Germany more training was taking place resulting in less access for the public. That's certainly the case on the Plain. I really think that people need to start pestering their MP, the alternative of course is demonstrations, sit ins etc all captured by the local press and TV. That might be the way to instigate change.
ST - thanks for making this ‘sticky’!👍🏼
What about a critical mass ride? If we could get 50 Or so riders and press coverage... it could all help raise awareness.
This land is vitally important to local people. Without it opportunities to get outdoors would be significantly limited. Between the canal and Swinley everything else is pretty much MoD
fettling - there has to a mass protest involving walkers, dog walkers, horse riders, runners, cyclists. They need to work together to demonstrate that the MOD have presumably failed to engage with the public. I came across this article concerning public recreation which could be useful.
https://insidedio.blog.gov.uk/2019/10/23/staying-safe-on-the-mod-training-estate/
I seem to remember near the Old Dean Camberley side was, can’t think why though as it just looked like scrubland.
Perfect ground nesting bird territory most likely.
NE did get their knickers in a twist over an event round Barossa due post event trail uncovering, and they've been banned since I think.
The Thames Basin Heaths lot have their claws into a lot of the MOD land trying to protect heaths and GNBs. Can work to our benefit if it means maintaining public access. Though they'd prefer bikes and dogs weren't there. The army mainly don't like dogs (crawling through their shit).
On Pots being opened, that's welcome and as a result of pressure I think. Though they've shut it most the last month or so and seen claims it's in full use. Not when I've been there though. Also the Gov site for opening times shows booked out for driver training. Not aware that's a driver training area. Though they have just put in a new surface on some of the fireroads.
Oh yes, these elusive birds. Actually I'd better shut up cos frankly I'm cynical when it comes to this stuff. Again, vested interests.
Regarding dogs they're absolutely right to be hacked off but have they actually came up with any solutions rather than imposing a blanket ban? Which areas would see soldiers in the undergrowth, not all of them surely? Is there not one area that dog walkers could be steered towards that is under-utilised for training? I really don't see why the rest of the public should be penalised due to inconsiderate dog walkers.
Glad that you do have an area to use, why do you think that is and does this differ from the others?
Well, councillors can be self-serving with vested interests unfortunately
But thankfully, not all councillors. My local councillor is certainly very supportive of the Trail Action Group and retaining public access
I have lived next to the Aldershot Ranges for 30 years and regularly run and ride across the area - I have yet to encounter one of those elusive 'ground nesting birds'. The only time I've seen a nightjar was up on the South Downs.
There's also maintaining access to Rights of Way - at Hankley Common they built a gate and tried to close the Drop Zone car park on the premise of 'training' and the locals successfully appealed / overturned the closure.
ground nesting birds
Ground nesting birds are great, they are one of the reasons this land hasn't been built on.
One night I saw nightjars flocking around an army illumination flare, tucking into all the moths that were drawn to the light. There's quite a few out there, just not that obvious to see.
Porridge Pot hill is interesting. Since they installed the fence of doom, I have seen zero military on that side. No training exercises, no fitness training, not even a land rover or transit van, but there still seems to be lots of training on the tunnel hill side.
Oh, and signed.
and regularly run and ride across the area – I have yet to encounter one of those elusive ‘ground nesting birds’.
Oh, the ironing.
Oh, the ironing.
No, it's probably the fact that they've been driven-off by decades of squaddies romping through the undergrowth rather than cyclists and runners who tend to keep to the existing tracks.
This saddens me. All users need to organise themselves into one protest group that would be impossible to ignore through sheer number of voices. Are local MPs on board? Have they been spoken to in person as well as by e-mail? Any influential names that could be approached? Bang the drum about mental health and how the countryside can help improve physical and mental wellbeing. Shout out about the number of houses that have been built over the last few decades with ever diminishing green space.
As this is wider than just mtbers, we are organising a broad collection of people to campaign against any negative impact from the new byelaws - this is why the campaign is not branded as a TAG initiative. We have reached out to multiple local politicians (including MPs) all of whom are (so far) very supportive and some of whom have been actively involved in the campaigning. The MoDs standard approach to things is to divide and conquer, so we are very much trying to avoid this.
Btw, if anyone in the local area wants to help out, we now have a poster that can be printed out and displayed 🙂 #saveyourwoods
Aldershot Military Lands includes Longmoor and Bramshott, as well as Deepcut, Ash Vale, Pirbright, Arborfield and Sandhurst
Our current understanding is that they're splitting out the byelaws as part of this review and the current review won't cover longmoor and bramshott (but there will be one in the future for these areas).
Btw, if anyone in the local area wants to help out, we now have a poster that can be printed out and displayed 🙂 #saveyourwoods
/a>
I'll print out some of these in a small size and carry them with me to hand out to riders and walkers I see over there (when I'm stopped to catch my breath).
driven-off by decades of squaddies romping through the undergrowth
I don't know about other training areas but certainly in Hawley and Minley the soldiers tend to keep to the same old places (not that there's a lot of soldiers anyway) and the ground nesting birds seem to be thriving. They are well camouflaged (the GNBs not the soldiers) and you can easily run past and not notice them.
Also the Gov site for opening times shows booked out for driver training. Not aware that’s a driver training area
Actually, I read the wrong bit there. It's Long Valley closed for driver training which makes more sense. Though out of hundreds of times in there I've never come across a vehicle on training. Only the odd Landmarc van.
Anyway, G2 is Pots, and closed for training. Not seen evidence though but guess they're very good at hiding.
Also, Long Valley open this weekend.
With the closure of the permanent bases in Germany the pressure is on to turn these areas back to training areas rather than a dog toilet/ playground for the locals. Population density means the numbers will be far higher than trouble them on Salisbury Plain.
As for ground nesting birds, it's a dog issue, everyone knows it's a dog issue,
the army, they won't want to use "dogshit woods" nor will they want there carefully organised night patrol having to say hi to the third lot of gnarcore enduro warriors lit up like lighthouses who ride through the middle of them. And they appreciate the fact that they cannot use training pyrotechnics because of the risk Joe public bumbling into them and hurting themselves
The army needs space to train, they need to keep the public out of it and yes it may look empty, but that's the point. If I had a job where I got shot at I'd want make sure I could train properly and that this need had a priority
The training estate has seen much less use since the closure of deepcut barracks and to be honest with the lands in Cumbria and sailsbury plains I can't see why there is so much "useage" on these lands. It could be that if you sell off the land for housing development its much easier to do so once its enclosed and you can restrict public access. Meantime we get hearded onto SANG's that resemble a gravelled kids playground. As for Enduro Gnar - well you might have me there but as a regular club rider we rarely see military at night and always turn around immediately.
Vast majority of the night ride groups are on Tunnel Hill and Caesars. Neither fenced off and both have more training going on than in the fenced off areas. Occasionally see some around the bridge in Minley. Extremely rare to bump into any troops at night in Pots and Long Valley.
If troops encountered, always quick to cut the lights and go elsewhere. Occasionally have a chat with them and they're happy to talk and point out where's good to go. Only ones who have told us to clear off have been Landmarc, even then only the odd few.
As for the dog shit, most of that is in Ash Ranges. It's considered rightful dog walking territory. I've even seen posts calling out people not walking dogs there as weirdos and suggesting reporting them!
Noting there's a licence being introduced for professional dog walkers.
FYI - been posted on FB, Pots is now entirely fenced off. They've put up fences by the canal access at the bottom.
Tbh the amount of dog crap and bags of it over Tunnel hill is pretty disgusting. Just seen the Facebook posts about pots which is a shame. Although with the amount of digging that's been going on over the last few months in both areas I am not surprised they have finished the fence.
The army needs space to train, they need to keep the public out of it and yes it may look empty, but that’s the point. If I had a job where I got shot at I’d want make sure I could train properly and that this need had a priority
I support this absolutely, but as they have done on Salisbury Plain, and has worked there, and in fairness as has been recently done at PP as well, a system that closes off - whether physical or eg: flags - an area in use and opens it when access is permitted seems do-able.
Then by all means 'do' people that can't follow a fair rule according to the byelaws.
Just because you haven't seen troops doesn't mean they haven't seen you
Troops will have been told to be nice, Landmarc told to keep you off the area hence why they challenge
Been riding round there for a decade and know how to spot them. Primarily to be sure I can keep out of their way. Get to know their favourite spots.
To be honest they give themselves away at times smoking 😉
Anyway, despite the current bylaw and without consultation prior to the review, they've fenced off another area.
https://www.byelawsreview.com/
With the closure of the permanent bases in Germany the pressure is on to turn these areas back to training areas rather than a dog toilet/ playground for the locals.
There's hardly any troops left in Germany (a couple of thousand) and most of those are staying so there's not going to be a big influx.
they won’t want to use “dogshit woods”
If this is really such an issue why don't they put up signs about 'Troops training - pick up your do poop' like they do in other areas of the UK???
And they appreciate the fact that they cannot use training pyrotechnics because of the risk Joe public bumbling into them and hurting themselves
They quite happily use blank rounds, smoke grenades, illumination flares etc with the current access arrangements and there isn't any problem. They even let off small explosve charges on Minley, just closing off the local area when they're there. Never been a problem.
If I had a job where I got shot at I’d want make sure I could train properly and that this need had a priority
Realistically, in the future the army is likely to be deployed in areas where they will be alongside civilians such as in Iraq and Afghanistan. The most realistic training is where there are civilians wandering around, like there will be when they're deployed.
There’s hardly any troops left in Germany (a couple of thousand) and most of those are staying so there’s not going to be a big influx.
The influx has already happened, the real estate has contracted in the UK, the pressure is on the remaining areas
Troops training – pick up your do poop’ like they do in other areas of the UK???
Do they? Never seen one, have you made this up?
They quite happily use blank rounds, smoke grenades, illumination flares etc with the current access arrangements and there isn’t any problem. They even let off small explosve charges on Minley, just closing off the local area when they’re there. Never been a problem.
How do you know? Do you get to see the range logs? How many times have people strayed into
Areas and stopped activity? How many areas are not used due to pressure from locals freelancing wherever they like?
Realistically, in the future the army is likely to be deployed in areas where they will be alongside civilians such as in Iraq and Afghanistan. The most realistic training is where there are civilians wandering around, like there will be when they’re deployed.
Makes you wonder why they use troops as civilians for exercises when Joe public will wander around for free? Could it be due to the dangers of wandering around troops which might be accepted on operations but not in peacetime UK?
Hi Big_n_daft,
The mountain biking, walking and running community have tried many times to have a discussion with DIO over the last 10+ years.
To have a discussion both sides have to respect each other and be willing to listen to the other sides views.
Alternatively you can just change the rules by ramming them through in 30 days after 30+ years with a token consultation and put a big fence round it all. The latter is what's been happening (Deepcut, Long Valley).
The military land is utilised for training and also filming (Jurrasic Park, Witchers, James Bond) and Motor Cross races that really tear things up which sort of goes against the whole SSI / Dartford Warbler argument.
Consideration and respect from both sides is the key, the land was common until the military requistioned it with the understanding that there would still be access (why else recognise that in the current 1976 by laws) . You can't access something if you put a great big fence round it.
I don't disagree that consultation is key to this.
The DIO probably don't have the right people to do this and probably don't get that they need people with the skills to engage publicly.
Hi, I just wanted to say a huge thank you for your support and for everyone who signed the petition (6k and rising) The MOD have now delayed the publishing of the new Bye Laws for access to the military lands and increased the consultation days from 35 to 60 when they do publish. We aren't out of the woods (sorry for the pun) but its great to see progress and a route to constructive dialogue opening.
The MOD statement reads
"As you will appreciate constructing new byelaws is a complex process and it is imperative that we get this right before formal public consultation can begin. We are currently experiencing delays, and therefore will not be able to begin the Public Consultation period in April 2020 as previously expected. We will give notice of the commencement of the Public Consultation in advance through this website.
Additionally, due to the interest we have decided that we will extend the period of public consultation to 60 days.
We have already received a large volume of correspondence from members of the public, responsible bodies and others concerning this review, most of which has been supportive, and for which we are grateful. Inevitably however there have been some who have contacted us with expressions of concern and even a misconception that as a result of the review access which had previously been enjoyed will in future be denied. This could not be further from the case.
The language and mapping in particular needs updating and other aspects including the blanket prohibition on cycling is something that we aim to address.
As always the detail is what counts. The lands were "appropriated" by the MOD using the Part2 of the Military Lands Act of 1892 and the subsequent 1976 bye laws applied these state that "no person shall ride a horse, bicycle or tricycle or drive a vehicle of any kind elsewere than of a carrigeway of such road".
So in effect the woods that we have all been riding in for years are not to be used for bikes etc, except apart from a few DIO chaps explaining this everyone has been. The issue is that they could issue new bye laws which allow cycling on specific paths - think swinley marked trails perhaps close to the edge of the forest and be seen to be "improving" access when in fact in practical terms the opposite would be true. If it formed a national path they could even get the gravel / road fans to accept this as a positive thing. In one move the MTB community would lose the access they have had for years.
We have to wait now for the publishing of the bye laws proposal but I belive that continued open dialogue will be the key. The reason for this revised approach is that the MOD has had "large volume of correspondence from members of the public" its you that have made the difference and I would encourage you all to continue to support the campaign.
Never seen one, have you made this up?
Here you go, clearly not made up.
In other areas the DIO (Defence Infrastructure Organisation) take part in the 'Take the Lead' campaign about responsible dog ownership, see page 86 here
, but in the Aldershot area they seem relectant to engage with the local community............
Hi, if anyone has an old map (pre-1888) of the Aldershot area can they PM me. You can see that the area's we are talking about are shown on this handy site and the BS WD (Border Stone War Dept markings cover a much smaller area. Would be interesting to see when the land requistion took place.
Ok, just briefly.i work in a capacity involved in this, have done for a while. Simples, the heathland (which is actually quite rare globally. (Very infact) fairs much better with no Joe public around. It's extremely valuable to most rare ground nesting birds (I've seen a few). Average Joe public with their 2 lovely labradoodles or cockapoos running roughshod around on a lovely walk are not helping at all. So a blanket ban is much simpler to enforce...
Average Joe public with their 2 lovely labradoodles or cockapoos running roughshod around on a lovely walk are not helping at all. So a blanket ban is much simpler to enforce…
If it's so rare and needs protecting, then everyone should be banned, but no...squaddies crawling through the undergrowth is OK, or every year allowing a few hundred motorbikes to carve new trails through the vegetation and leaving a foot-deep, water-filled ditch where there was barely a mark is also OK because they pay? How about failure to clean up the decades of crap and pollution that contaminated land now needs fencing off about hardly make you a responsible guardian. Having lived nearby for 30 years I'd say that the MOD has contributed more to the destruction / mismanagement of habitat than a few members of public.
I don't believe that this is about ground nesting birds, a lot of these training areas are woodland, not heathland and so don't support GNBs anyway.
Signs are already up requiring dog walkers to keep their dogs to the paths or on a lead. That could be put into the byelaws with a hefty fine as the consequence, no need to fence everything off.
Just to bump this up..... I gather review about to start in a few days time. Time to write to MP and Councillors if not already done. I just fired another one off to Gove (not optimistic) and county councillor.