[Closed] MIPS , here to stay or just a bit of marketing BS ?

Got 2, feels good so I'm sold

Any helmet over £25 is a product of marketing BS

See the guy above

thanks....

Any helmet over £25 is a product of marketing BS

Except Troy Lee - worth their weight in unobtainium

Except Troy Lee – worth their weight in unobtainium

I'm more of a THE fit myself but recently a convert to Giro, even better in a good colour though

Good as in gopping? That's what I go for - to match my fluro DH onesie.

Its an interesting one.

there is no doubt at all that helmets can increase the rotational forces on your brain in the event of oblique impacts thus actually increasing injuries.  Even TRL found this to be so ( altho then without evidence stating it was virtually irrelevant) and some research suggests this could be as much as 30% of all bicycle head injuries are caused or exacerbated by this effect

However the MIPS system increases weight which is detrimental to the effectiveness of helmets

My personal view is that given those two things the best bet is a helmet with a smooth outer shell.  ie none of those sticky out aero bits at the back and no peak.  However there is ( like with most stuff about helmets) little decent data.

So, sod all data = ill-informed opinion.

What was it Harlan Ellison said?

Good as in gopping? That’s what I go for – to match my fluro DH onesie.

Nice dark orange for the montaro, but full fluro yellow for my switchblade.

I've also got a cheap decathlon for commuting but that was still over 25 quid as I wanted something that fitted well.

Don't know what Harlan Ellison said but I suspect it was only his opinion anyway.

MIPS I like the theory but I don't know just how much a sheet of plastic in my helmet can really help.  Surely it will be surpassed by something better.  I'd suggest it isn't worth spending an extra tenner on a MIPS helmet if you are going to stick a camera on it, kind of does the opposite job.

I personally don't think it's going anywhere. When I played American Football for a brief spell the helmets are another level up from what we have, don't get me wrong they are heavier than an MTB helmet so not practical for our use, but far more protective.

Individually air inflatable pads within the helmet mean you get exact equal pressure on all contact points of the helmet inner, none of this "well the thick pad is too tight and the thin pad is too loose" nonsense you get with MTB helmets.

<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">My personal view is that given those two things the best bet is a helmet with a smooth outer shell.  ie none of those sticky out aero bits at the back and no peak.  However there is ( like with most stuff about helmets) little decent data.</span>

Maybe not for MTB, but motorbikes have been using this style of helmet for decades with little to no major change so they must be backing that up with something, otherwise surely the marketing departments would have found some fancy/expensive innovation to slap on by now!

Don’t know what Harlan Ellison said but I suspect it was only his opinion anyway.

Rob likes this 😁

Given the absence of good evidence about helmets* generally, all we have to rely on is theory.  Better than nothing.

*for cycling. mountain biking in particular.  The rotation effects will rely particularly on the surface the helmet contacts, so evidence from tarmac isn't going to prove much.

When I played American Football for a brief spell the helmets are another level up from what we have

Although to be fair, they are actually aiming to have collisions with each other, whereas we're supposed to be avoiding it haha. Even then, Easton (who own Riddel, the biggest helmet supplier in NFL) have had issues with litigation

https://nypost.com/2014/01/26/helmet-maker-to-sell-divisions-after-liability-snag/

My own personal experience is it doesn't make any difference, in fact I actively had to hunt out a helmet that doesn't have it, as I find I have to crank the thing up so tight to stop it sliding around, it gives me a killer headache.

Now use a POC lid without it. Much more comfortable.

Added weight is tiny. "That" helmet website says it reckons it won't make much difference as helmets aren't exactly rigidly attached to your skull anyway. Makes sense to me (I'm not a serial helmet updgrader), but I'll happily take on board any evidence.

And geex does have a point re safety (only), unless there's evidence re safety for any helmets beyond the manadatory tests.

Good theory on paper, limited to certain types of accidents and limited data on real life benefits, but then the same can be said about helmets in general as only proof they work is to recreate the exact same accident with and without the helmet, in real life, not in a lab.

Main issue I have though is the heavy price hike for an incredibly cheap (must be in the pence range) piece of plastic and the name MIPS (don't know if it's the cost of the patent or just manufacturers using it as an excuse to whack up the price).

I look for non-MIPS helmets. Done the job, tried/tested for decades (and I've real-life tested a few myself).

“Main issue I have though is the heavy price hike for an incredibly cheap (must be in the pence range) piece of plastic and the name MIPS (don’t know if it’s the cost of the patent or just manufacturers using it as an excuse to whack up the price).”

Plastic isn’t that cheap - tooling is expensive, extra fixtures cost money, more assembly time costs money, R&D costs money, MIPS is patented so there will be licensing cost too. And there’s a fair chance the brand isn’t the company manufacturing it. And a distributor. And a retailer.

Making money through niche products isn’t that easy!

*Anecdotal evidence alert*

I have a Giro with MIPS.  I have hit my head on low branches several times at a decent speed. With a normal helmet, I would associate the noise generated by the impact with an accompanying "percussive" sensation in the head. With MIPS, that sensation isn't there. I realise that this isn't evidence that the thing would prevent a concussion that a "lesser" helmet would allow, but for me it's a sign that MIPS at least does something.

I smashed my helmet dozily riding into a branch recently. Anyway, I took a punt on one of the those Lazer helmets with MIPS. They can be had for £55 so not a bad price for a mid range helmet. Comfort wise it's really pretty good. Ventilation is decent and the weight isn't bad at all. For £55 there doesn't, IME, seem to be any downside to having it.

I'm not sure about the comment above about anything above £25 being the product of marketing BS. Any really cheap helmets I've tried have been a bit nasty in terms of ventilation and fitting. Although some of the offerings from Decathlon and places like that make some of the mega pricey options seem a bit daft.

as an alternative i think for us bikers the bigger issue is reducing the force of impact. There is a high chance of us flailing about anyway so im not sure that would be of much benefit.

the kroyd (ive got an mt500) or dual density foam is much better imo.

the kroyd (ive got an mt500) or dual density foam is much better <span style="text-decoration: underline;">imo</span>

I've put emphasis on the most relevant part of that statement 🙂

EDIT - I tried to at least, is there a reason this stuff isn't getting fixed? Is it difficult?

I personally think it's marketing, a way to get folk to spend more on helmets. People really do like to spend more on stuff to make themselves feel safer and/or better owning a pricier item. They do! and it'll always be like that, so there's no point pretending otherwise. I can think of examples where I do it too.

But then again I haven't crashed wearing a MIPS helmet in a way that it would save my nut. I also haven't crashed in my current non-MIPS helmet.

I have had some really bad smashes that broke helmets in the past, and I'm still here with my marbles*, so didn't miss MIPS on those.

*yeah I didn't have many in the first place

didn’t miss MIPS on those

whereas I've had a crash which cracked a non MIPS helmet and I wonder whether MIPS would have been beneficial.  I'd only gone out for an easy road ride but there are six hours involving police, lifeboat crew, an ambulance and hospital that I have no memory of.  The actual dent in the helmet wasn't even very big so was it the impact twisting my melon that caused the memory problems?

Who knows...? I guess that's how the MIPS marketing works...

The actual dent in the helmet wasn’t even very big so was it the impact twisting my melon that caused the memory problems?

There may be info on the types of issues that arise from rotational injuries?

And LOL @ "twisting my melon" 😀

I think there is a lot of marketing involved that will end up selling you some polystyrene wrapped in a plastic shell.

I looked at the MIPS thing when I bought my new helmet and figured either my buff or hair would do the same job.

Soon someone will be along to say "what price do you put on your head" and end up justifying some massive cost using even more massive marketing justification.

People are really bad at judging risk, throw in a few what ifs and a "but what's your head worth" and they are lost.

This study seems to show an improvement in protection from a MIPS lid, though I have not had chance to read the test method fully. Could be worth a closer look.

https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/bike-helmet-safety-ratings-virginia-tech-concussion-risk-reduction-assessment-52514/

Most snow / ski helmets have MIPS as well.

Hob Nob

My own personal experience is it doesn’t make any difference, in fact I actively had to hunt out a helmet that doesn’t have it, as I find I have to crank the thing up so tight to stop it sliding around, it gives me a killer headache.

This is my experience as well, apart from the Troy Lee A1 I'm currently wearing (and trying to replace as it's so hot), all MIPS helmets have an annoying wobble regardless of how tight I do them up!

Any helmet over £25 is a product of marketing BS

The arbitrary £25 threshold sounds like even worse BS to me.

You miss the point.

Show me a cycle helmet costing more than £25 that has no marketing to go with it.

Take this guy for instance:

I’ve also got a cheap decathlon for commuting but that was still over 25 quid as I wanted something that fitted well.

He seems to think major sports retailer Decathlon don't use any marketing to sell their products, probably because he's used to paying a fortune for highly marketed fashionable brands. Probably to fit in with the image of how his hobby is sold. But weirdly isn't as bothered about image or safety when just commuting.

Batshit if you ask me.

Probably to fit in with the image of how his hobby is sold.

MTB is in the fashion industry. that's why there are model years, on trend colour schemes and yearly apparel ranges. doesn't matter if your helmet is sold for £25 or £125, still fashion.

 MIPS is patented so there will be licensing cost too.

Let's not just sail away from this point as I think there's an issue of ethics here if the people who own the patent believe it has real and significant safety benefits and isn't just a fancy marketing angle. Just to compare two different safety technologies and the attitude of the holders of the rights to them:

1) Three point car seatbelts (from Wikipedia):

"The three-point belt was developed by Nils Bohlin.. Volvo then made the new seat belt design patent open in the interest of safety and made it available to other car manufacturers for free."

2) MIPS (from www.bicycleretailer.com):

"MIPS.. is suing POC, alleging the helmet maker's SPIN feature infringes on its intellectual property.

MIPS announced this week that it had been granted a preliminary injunction in Germany to prevent the sale of POC products with SPIN."

I thought the guy who originally developed this left it in the public domain.  Not certain thos so I guess its a try on my the company.

I would if Kask did their glorious Mojito helmet with it (and it didn't make it less comfy!) otherwise, I'm sticking with what I've got because, frankly, I've never worn a more comfy helmet.

Dr. Ken Phillips was his nmame.  He described the concept that was used in MIPS so I very much doubt MiPS can winthis one.  Prior examples exist.

<p>Some of the big players are fully backing MIPS....I think it - and it's derivatives - are here to stay.</p><p>The safety standards for testing helmets are rubbish....and certainly don't replicate a mtb crash well. A £25 helmet may pass the standard, doesn't mean it is a 'safe' as a £100 helmet.</p><p>Koroyd is designed to dissipate the force of impact. Reducing change of skull fracture or brain contusion. This is different from MIPS etc which aim to reduced rotational forces of a type that may lead to diffuse axonal injury and potentially to chronic traumatic encephalopathy if you're really unlikely (repeatedly). The two mechanisms of injury are different, and safety feature should address them differently. </p><p>My advice - and I don't class myself has having a standard or less than standard level of ignorance on the subject - is buy the best helmet you can afford, preferably with MIPS/Spin etc. But more than that, if you crash and bang you're head bad enough to have some disruption to normal conscious processing don't just get beck on your bike.</p><p> </p>

<p>Let’s not just sail away from this point as I think there’s an issue of ethics here if the people who own the patent believe it has real and significant safety benefits and isn’t just a fancy marketing angle.</p>

<p>Err....pretty much the entire multi-billion pound pharmaceutical industry?</p>

I was in buying a new helmet yesterday as it happens. Lots of MIPS options, which didn't seem to be that much more expensive, but I wasn't sure I'd be able to fit the bracket for my exposure helmet light to any of them, so they were ruled out. Never really been a fan of specialized but their tactic 3 helmet seemed to fit my bonce better than any of the other options in the store, so that got the nod. It was on sale too, which helped, but still more than £25 and a dare say a chunk of the price was to cover marketing costs.

Just cos the basic idea is public (or patented by someone else) doesn't mean that you can't get a patent for a particular way of implementing it that wasn't disclosed by the earlier thing.

But of course that doesn't mean the patent will turn out to be valid if/when seriously challenged.