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Need some mineral oil.
Shimano brakes.
Any old mineral oil will do or do I need Shimano's own.
Every brand will tell you you have to use their own.
The internet will tell you to buy Citroen LHM from Halfords, or to use baby oil.
Halfords CHF works a treat. It’s a nice green colour too!
Edit: LHM not CHF 😁
Warranty? - Shimano oil ✔
No Warranty? - Whatever I have on the shelf ✔
2200m altitude in the french alps after blowing a piston due to pad failure and needing to do 3 more days on these brakes to finish the trip? Cooking oil from a refuge and then leave that in the brakes for about 3 years ✔
Honestly, Shimano stuff isn't massively expensive, so I'm not sure why you'd bother using anything else, especially as you don't use that much of it, so a litre pot goes a long way...
If Shimano availability is an issue and you want to use dedicated bike stuff, Morgan Blue mineral oil works totally fine.
LBS recommended it and sold me a litre about 6 years ago - still got a bit left.
so I’m not sure why
you’d bother using anything else
While 20 quid doesn't seem alot to you It's still twice the price of the alternative.
Bleeding the brakes today as oppose to in three-five days time ?
As Oliver racing says... Warrenty needed stump up the 20 quid. Otherwise lhms worked fine for me for years. I've had seal failures using both fluids so I while it's an easy get out for warranty I'm disinclined to believe it's a legitimate cause
While 20 quid doesn’t seem alot to you It’s still twice the price of the alternative.
Easily get a dozen full bleeds out of a pot. Far more if not flushing out completely, so the per-use cost is trivial. If it were £20 a bleed, I might agree, but it's nothing like that. Not even close.
Bleeding the brakes today as oppose to in three-five days time ?
If you really need it, it's available for a bit more money, next day on Wiggle Prime.
It's still twice the price per bleed
Putoline hpx 2.5 fork oil
It’s still twice the price per bleed
I take your point, but twice the price of bugger all is still bugger all. Even a total flush is, maybe, £1 in genuine fluid, so you might save 50p on a full bleed, and probably just pennies if you're just doing a routine air bleed.
Anyway, each to their own but I wouldn't countenance putting incorrect fluid into a safety critical element of my own (let alone, someone else's) bike for the sake of saving a few pennies per bleed. Oils and lubricants can be odd things and their interactions on things like seals, especially in the long term, can be hard to gauge, especially when used in anger, and with extreme temperatures as in brakes. The savings just don't justify it (for me, anyway).
Perhaps all the leaking calipers people seem to experience with Shimano brakes are from using alternative mineral oils and interaction with the seals...
I spent £18 on Shimano stuff...
In 2004.. I've still got 50% of it left..
Clutch oil for me. Gets rid of wondering bite point issue
Gets rid of wondering bite point issue
So does fitting SRAM Codes 🙂
LHM, no point throwing money away just for a brand name when there is absolutley no benefit.
Perhaps all the leaking calipers people seem to experience with Shimano brakes are from using alternative mineral oils and interaction with the seals…
Doesn't explain all the failures where Shimano fluid has exclusively been used though does it.... Of which I've experienced. Anumber.
I found the solution to stopping Shimano brakes leaking was to stop using Shimano brakes
I have grx and ultegra levers* only now both using lhm
*Because SRAM shift levers are awful.
incorrect fluid
Brand or colour perhaps.
I spent £18 on Shimano stuff…
In 2004.. I’ve still got 50% of it left..
Yep. Basically this.
Pop quiz. What's the shelf life of mineral fluid.
What’s the shelf life of mineral fluid.
Ages.... i used it a few weeks ago and it's still fine.
By what measure was it still fine.
It does have a documented shelf life - I mean I imagine exceeding it would have similar repercussions to using the wrong colour fluid mins.
By what measure was it still fine.
He's not crashed yet 🙂
Don't worry, it was a mates bike not mine.
Mineral Oil
Since Mineral Oil is hydrophobic and does not absorb water from the environment, one of the great advantages it has over DOT fluid is that once opened it can be stored indefinitely.
https://epicbleedsolutions.com/blogs/faq/what-is-the-shelf-life-of-dot-and-mineral-oil-brake-fluid
was to stop using Shimano brakes
Well, the master cylinder rebuild job I did last week on my son's Guide Ultimates suggest that brake issues are not just limited to Shimano. What possessed SRAM to use plastics that clearly react and expand with DOT fluid in an environment where they are permanently immersed in it...?
As it happens, I've been relatively free of brake issues on my own bikes for a while, but over the years I've seen my own fair share of dribbly Shimano calipers contaminating pads so they sound like a cross-channel ferry manoeuvring into port. Even Hope are not without their problems and I've seen a few reports of Tech 4 brakes shredding master cylinder piston seals.
You'd have thought that after nearly 30 years, they'd have nailed these things by now, but...
Yes that's epic bleed solutions opinion.
You'll find the shelf life in the manufacturer's specification documentation
The internet will tell you to buy Citroen LHM from Halfords
Halfords LHM works a treat
Not in my experience! This was from around ~2010 ish so things maybe different now. But I found it to create a very wooden / dead feeling lever and increased resistance. Don't know if the seals and gaskets reacted incorrectly to the oil or what but the brakes were not same after that.
I always use Shimano or Shimano compatible oil. Epic bleed do their own brand stuff that is Shimano compatible, Halfords do Shimano compatible brake oil. etc ...
Lhm is a bit more viscous. It works fine, but makes the lever feel a bit heavier/slower. I do prefer the feel with less viscous oils.
As has been said bugger all of bugger all is not very much cost wise, but availability of shimano oil during 20/21 was poor. Think I have a stock of juice lubes mineral oil at the moment.
As above, just buy a litre of Shimano fluid and use that.
Clutch oil for me. Gets rid of wondering bite point issue
What exactly is "clutch fluid?" The wandering bite point problem is because of air in the reservoir. The way to get rid of it is to bleed the system properly and make sure the reservoir is full, without any air in it. A lower viscosity fluid may make bleeding easier, but you need to make sure that what you're putting in is a compatible mineral oil. On regular manual transmissions, clutch fluid is usually DOT 4 brake fluid. You don't want to be using that for Shimano brakes.
The wandering bite point problem is because of air in the reservoir. The way to get rid of it is to bleed the system properly and make sure the reservoir is full, without any air in it.
And also change the pads more regularly.
Since Mineral Oil is hydrophobic and does not absorb water from the environment, one of the great advantages it has over DOT fluid is that once opened it can be stored indefinitely.
DOT fluid needs to be stored in a sealed container. You can open the container, use fluid, then screw the cap back on to seal it again.
I've run loads of xt brakes over the years. The only pair that have ever failed on me (sticky piston in the heat) was a pair that I'd put none shimano mineral oil in. All the other brakes have only ever had shimano mineral oil in and have never failed.
No idea if that's a coincidence or not.
On regular manual transmissions, clutch fluid is usually DOT 4 brake fluid
I only found this out recently on my old Renault. Had an issue with a leak from the clutch. The car shares a reservoir with the clutch and the brakes. When it leaks the clutch loses oil first and let's you know you have an issue. I thought it was a clever design/safety feature.
What exactly is “clutch fluid?”
So in my case, "clutch fluid" was dot 4. It would certainly get rid of the wandering bite point on shimano brakes 🤣
As @trail_rat says
so I’m not sure why you’d bother using anything else
Its your brakes, possibly the most important part of your bike!
What possessed SRAM to use plastics that clearly react and expand with DOT fluid in an environment where they are permanently immersed in it…?
Yup! Had this issue whilst guiding. You look a right tit as a guide when suddenly you can't brake and drift off into the bushes.... 😕
Funnily enough, it was that experience that made me swap to Shimano XTs. No wondering bite point for me nor on the GF's bike.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Gh1Cw4wqNHBfoiy19
this is what I use (not clutch oil). No wondering bite point with this stuff
Used Halfords LHM for years. As it's cheaper, don't feel so bad doing a full flush to really clean out the crap.
Now got a bottle of Shimano stuff, as it was cheap. Can't say I can tell the difference.
Unlike Dot fluid, mineral oil isn't hygroscopic, is it? So lasts ages even after being opened.
A friend of mine recently told me he’d switched to using power steering fluid on Shimano brakes which cured the wandering bite point (and had done it on multiple bikes, not just his own). Can’t recall more details though!
Putoline hpx 2.5 fork oil
Bought a litre of this in the great Shimano COVID drought and it's been fine in my Shigura and deore setup's as well as the cargo bike tektros. Cheap enough to do a gravity bleed and let it pour out.
I have bled a Shimano brake using WATER after a giftless riding companion popped a piston during a brake pad change halfway down the backside of the Devil's Staircase. We went on to ride the Ciaran Path and he didn't die.
@Troutwrestler - I did this on the last day of an Alps trip. It worked fine for the afternoon with no problems. Unfortunately I forgot about it and left the bike in the garage for a month when I got back. The XT brake did not like that at all. Oops
Putoline hpx 2.5 fork oil
Works perfectly well, reasonable price by comparison and readily available.
If you struggle getting a good bleed the lower viscosity of this may even help.
Cornelius kampfinger of Intend BC actually specs the Outline in the new infinity brakes he recently released.
I found the Halfords lhm stuff to be quite a bit thicker than shimano's. Not really too noticeable in summer but made the brakes feel quite different in winter/colder temps.
Mineral oil is mineral oil is mineral oil. Spec sheets are there for a reason, as long as the specs match it makes bugger all difference what name is on the bottle or what dye pack has been added to the oil. Magura have been quite explicit on this in the past, they sold HS33's for touring based on the fact they will run on anything and you can use water in a pinch. The principle here is exactly the same and since you can obviously mix shimano and other brands it stands to reason the fluids are all the same!
Point of curiosity, do all of you who only use manufacturers oil apply the same principle to whatever Castrol/Total/whatever oil is named in the user manual and only fill up with whatever petrol is advertised inside the filler cap?
What possessed SRAM to use plastics that clearly react and expand with DOT fluid in an environment where they are permanently immersed in it…?
Bugger knows but since they've been pulling the same nonsense since Juicy 5's were a thing you might have thought people would just avoid them on principle by now.
TroutWrestler
I have bled a Shimano brake using WATER after a giftless riding companion popped a piston during a brake pad change halfway down the backside of the Devil’s Staircase. We went on to ride the Ciaran Path and he didn’t die.
Wondering if that brand that brought out water filled brakes are still going... Brake H2O or something like that?
Edit - seems they have moved on to mobility scooter thingys
Part of ZF at that (parent company of Lemförder, Sachs,TRW and others) so obviously not that crazy an idea.
I'm using LHM because I needed oil urgently and the LBS had run out of Shimano. It works fine but does feel slightly less snappy at the lever.
The principle here is exactly the same and since you can obviously mix shimano and other brands it stands to reason the fluids are all the same!
Being compatible doesn't mean the fluids are the same. It's possible that seals may react with non-spec fluids and cause problems. To me, it's just not worth the potential issues given that a liter of Shimano fluid isn't really that expensive.
The big issue is warranty. If you use a different spec fluid and then send the brakes back under warranty, Shimano would be within their rights to refuse a warranty claim. Putting in some green or blue coloured oil is just asking for a warranty rejection.
Mineral oil is mineral oil is mineral oil. Spec sheets are there for a reason, as long as the specs match it makes bugger all difference what name is on the bottle or what dye pack has been added to the oil.
The issue with mineral oil is that there isn't a standard. DOT fluid is made to standard that is literally in its name. There isn't the same system for mineral oil.
I've used LHM and various brands over the years. Can't say I've noticed much difference but I have had zero issues since using pink shimano fluid so its easy to stick to that for the small cost difference for me.
Mineral oil is mineral oil is mineral oil. Spec sheets are there for a reason, as long as the specs match it makes bugger all difference what name is on the bottle or what dye pack has been added to the oil. Magura have been quite explicit on this in the past, they sold HS33’s for touring based on the fact they will run on anything and you can use water in a pinch. The principle here is exactly the same and since you can obviously mix shimano and other brands it stands to reason the fluids are all the same!
Point of curiosity, do all of you who only use manufacturers oil apply the same principle to whatever Castrol/Total/whatever oil is named in the user manual and only fill up with whatever petrol is advertised inside the filler cap?
My van doesn't state the warranty is void if I use a different make. (Not that its in warranty)
My van doesn’t state the warranty is void if I use a different make.
No, but you need to use an oil that is certified to the specified performance level. If you put cheap rubbish oil into a high-performance turbo engine, it will trash the engine and you won't be eligible for a warranty claim.
https://www.api.org/products-and-services/engine-oil/eolcs-categories-and-classifications/latest-oil-categories
DOT brake fluid has a system like that (DOT 3, DOT 4, DOT 5.1), but mineral oil brake fluid doesn't.
Just spend £20 on a litre of the Shimano stuff and never worry about it ever again. Even with 5 sets of Shimano brakes in our garage, I am not even half way through the bottle in 4 years! I suspect the bottle will still be on the shelf when I'm long gone 🙂
Being compatible doesn’t mean the fluids are the same.
Umm, it kind of does. How else do you mate a Hope RX caliper to a GRX or whatever lever if the seals are different and require different fluids?
It’s possible that seals may react with non-spec fluids and cause problems.
Whilst true, what makes you think Shimano use some sort of proprietary seal composition? They don't, they're industrial seals bought in bulk because the alternative is horrifically expensive. The only mineral oil likely to muck them up would be shock oil with seal sweller additives. As long as it's a similar viscosity and doesn't have any weird additives then it should work fine.
But you do you, if you want to pay over the odds for branded fluid to match every system you own batter in, if you want to use Mobil DTE Light for everything then feel equally free.
No, but you need to use an oil that is certified to the specified performance level
But the manual says Castrol 🤔
DOT brake fluid has a system like that (DOT 3, DOT 4, DOT 5.1), but mineral oil brake fluid doesn’t.
Why do you suppose that is?
My van doesn’t state the warranty is void if I use a different make. (Not that its in warranty)
No. But Shimano do, and its their warranty.
Being compatible doesn’t mean the fluids are the same.
Umm, it kind of does.
I don't think it does. Most people would understand "compatible" to mean the different fluid will work acceptably for a reasonable time, not that it's the same stuff with a different logo/colouring.
I've had the same litre bottle of Shimano red stuff since forever. Seals on my various brakes never leak so I almost never need to bleed. I think I've used more on friends' bikes than my own. Think I paid about £6 for the bottle.
Seals on my various brakes never leak so I almost never need to bleed.
Your fluid must be like treacle. Ahimano brakes run dirty IME.
If it tasted that good I'd go through it far quicker.
jairaj
Not in my experience! This was from around ~2010 ish so things maybe different now. But I found it to create a very wooden / dead feeling lever and increased resistance. Don’t know if the seals and gaskets reacted incorrectly to the oil or what but the brakes were not same after that.
I always use Shimano or Shimano compatible oil. Epic bleed do their own brand stuff that is Shimano compatible, Halfords do Shimano compatible brake oil. etc …
Same problem here, it's not worth the saving IMO.
I don’t think it does. Most people would understand “compatible” to mean the different fluid will work acceptably for a reasonable time, not that it’s the same stuff with a different logo/colouring.
Then most people would be wrong. By your logic water, urine and buckfast are all compatible brake fluids for mineral systems.
As an engineer I can assure you that your definition is wrong.
I don’t think it does. Most people would understand “compatible” to mean the different fluid will work acceptably for a reasonable time, not that it’s the same stuff with a different logo/colouring.
Compatible doesn't mean identical. To me, it mostly means that it won't damage the system, but it may not perform to the same level. Water is compatible with both DOT and mineral oil based brakes. It will work well enough to get you home in an emergency and won't cause any permanent damage, but it won't perform as well as the proper fluid. Urine is probably not compatible with any brake system, but would probably get you home in an emergency and not cause damage if you flushed it as soon as you got home.
Then most people would be wrong. By your logic water, urine and buckfast are all compatible brake fluids for mineral systems.
That isn't my logic. You responded to "Being compatible doesn’t mean the fluids are the same" with "Umm, it kind of does" - which I was disagreeing with. I have no idea whether water, urine and buckfast are all compatible brake fluids for mineral systems as I have 2/3 of a tub of treacle to use. Mmmm, treacle.
Really?
compatible
adjective(of two things) able to exist or occur together without problems or conflict.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=compatible+definition
Yes really, compatible doesn't mean "the same".