[Closed] New Standard -Metric Shock Sizing. April Fools?

Miss-time aprils fools or genuine?

Doesn't actually seem like a completely insane concept, slighty larger shocks... What's the problem?

makes sense to me

Doesn't actually seem like a completely insane concept, slighty larger shocks... What's the problem?

If it's indeed true, I guess it would be mean old standards being dropped. So another way of prodding riders towards a new frame.

My frame doesn't have a shock.

(Someone's gonna say it, might as well get it out the way).

25.4 mm in an inch, surely that's all you need to know.

1lb of feathers is a pound of feathers.

[img] [/img]

Hows is a standard change going to improve this shock? We should be doing away with inline shocks as opposed to lengthening the bloody things so we can carry on using them. Inline shocks should be relegated to lycra clad weirdos that need a lockout and a tiny bit of poorly controlled bounce to keep their bums from becoming sore.

Okay, so it may improve bushing overlap and the stiffness of the shock. But again, this is a cop out because a well designed frame shouldn't need increased shock stiffness in the first place. Spherical bearings are also a good way of getting rid of binding.

Notice how Fox aren't in on this? If it is true, then it's simply another way Sram is trying corner the market through new standards despite their somewhat dated de-carbon damper designs. Not sure they'd have this issue if they went down the Fox, Ohlins, Cane Creek route. The same people who gave us unwinding 15mm maxles and then lengthened them to stiffen the fork and called it "boost", whilst Fox just gave us a proper 20mm pinch bolt axle that doesn't unwind itself!

Also, my Lyriks, Totem and Pike have given me nothing but grief - my Pike has gone back under warranty twice in the 6 months I've had it. So I am loathe to see Sram trying to corner the market like this.

If you want to make a longer shock....then make a longer shock. What has metric got to do with it?...or do inches only go up to 8.5?

Does metric make the numbers come alive?

If you want to make a longer shock....then make a longer shock. What has metric got to do with it?...or do inches only go up to 8.5?

Your guess is as good as mine. It appears that the switch to metric measurement is also a guise/marketing speak for changing the shock sizes though.

It makes alot of sense if you're trying to offer more options and more space in the shock. Im not saying it will yield any performance benefits - thats to be seen, but its easiest to see the change in terms of shock sizing visually to appreciate why the new sizing makes more sense:

[img] [/img]

Thats single shock model, new vs. old from one of the metric party. Fewer i2i sizes, more choice in strokes. I guess if thats what you wanted to achieve its better to start again than fudge in some more sizes.

Why the inline hate?

I like my Cane Creek Inline shock - it is great for the riding I do in the UK.

When I go somewhere where heat build up could be an issue, I switch it for a DB Air. I could use the DB Air all the time, but it weighs 200g more.

I think there's a time and a place for both, even if you're not a lycra clad weirdo.

WTF?

Whether it's for real or an April Fool, it doesn't make any sense either way.

It makes alot of sense if you're trying to offer more options and more space in the shock.

Still failing to see the space argument for all but inline shocks. Which again should have died along time ago as they need more length to have more room for the oil to move. Hence negating the weight savings if you lengthen the bloody things enough to have decent damping!

Sram can shove it, won't be buying any of their products again. Between Rock Shox toy like build quality and this then it's Hope, Fox and Shimano only from now on.

Damn, we even have graphs with no scale or units.
Definitely a new standard on the way then!

I always thought length was continuous but it seems its split into discrete chunks like photons. Therefor moving to mm increases the number of possibly lengths.

fascinating

I assumed it was some kind of April Fools thing, but a day early - maybe it's just lost on us Brits as we're used to having to suffer both imperial and metric measurements, sometimes at the same time - but I still don't get it?

My Shock is 200mm x 57mm or 7.875" x 2.25". Would making it 200mm x 60mm make it more metric?

I'd laugh and write it off as a joke if it didnt come from an industry that loves to make tint changes that supposedly change the world in exchange for making last years obsolete.

"200x60mm" would make the "problem" worse. Apparently. It'd likely be a 230mmx60mm shock.

Ah, so they want a longer shock relative to the stroke to cram more "stuff" in it, why didn't they just say that rather than dropping a Red Herrin in the mix in terms of making it metric.

OK got it now.

Worst press release ever?

Ah, so they want a longer shock relative to the stroke to cram more "stuff" in it, why didn't they just say that rather than dropping a Red Herrin in the mix in terms of making it metric.

Probably to obfuscate the issue due to the abuse they got over boost and the Eagle drivetrain. "We're changing to metric, *cough* oh btw we're introducing fairly pointless engineering/standards at the same time *cough*".

seriously? people are questioning if its an April fools? lol

Well, it was released on the wrong date.

If it was a mistake and they released it a day early, then consider this the day that the bike industry put itself beyond the ability of satire to take the piss out of it.

No, its not an April fools. I have some metric shocks on my desk right now.

Good to clear that up Ben.

Could you just pop and tell the rest of the bike industry that the "metric" bit has confused everyone?

😉

Ah, the mountain bike industry and it's obsession with standards...this has to be the most poorly worded press release ever.

If they'd simply said:

"[i]after the runaway success of 15mm vs 20mm axles, tapered vs 1.5" steerers, [s]135mm[/s],[s]142mm[/s], *cough* 148mm rear hub spacing vs 150mm, [s]100mm[/s],[s]110mm x 20mm[/s],[s]100mm x 15mm[/s], 110mm x 15mm front axles, [s]the industrywide abandonment of hugely popular 26" wheels[/s] the industrywide move to 27.5" wheels [s]which are less responsive than 26ers and not as fast as 29ers[/s], we've got together to invent another standard that we think will separate you from your hard earned cash [s]because you're too daft to organise a boycott of our products until we stop it[/s], which has in no way been conjured up by bored marketing types with not enough work to do instead of making engineering sense.[/i]"

Then we'd have understood 🙂

Good to clear that up Ben.

Could you just pop and tell the rest of the bike industry that the "metric" bit has confused everyone?

Yeah its a bit daft, but you know the people who come up with this stuff are yanks, so they still run 8" shocks.

To be fair this is one "new standard" that actually isn't gonna cause any problems that I can see.

this has to be the most poorly worded press release ever.

imperial or metric are ways of measuring the same thing
If they still use 12.7mm eyelets then someone needs a punch for this.

To be fair this is one "new standard" that actually isn't gonna cause any problems that I can see.

Errr, apart from making it harder to fit new shocks into old frames - or carry your nice 216mm coil shock over to your next bike that is fitted with a crappy sram shock that likes to leak oil/air.

It's basically a dick move by Sram to get market dominance and companies like DVO are hopping on the bandwagon as despite their "high-end" marketing, they can't compete with FOX, BOS or Ohlins on actual performance and build quality.

^ seriously? It's an April fool.

Tom_W1987 - Member

Hows is a standard change going to improve this shock? We should be doing away with inline shocks as opposed to lengthening the bloody things so we can carry on using them.

or "Grr im an angry freerider and my piggyback makes me think im rad so everything else must be rubbish".

Those of us who have not smashed our heads repeatedly off a 10ft huck will realise that extending the shock to include all the gubbins and oil currently in a piggy back will either be lighter or contain a larger volume of oil for the same weight. The larger mass of oil in the main body will reduce heat build up in the moving damper and removing the need to push oil along small ports into a remote chamber will increase the sensitivity of the shock.

chakaping - Member

To be fair this is one "new standard" that actually isn't gonna cause any problems that I can see.

Yep, just like taper forks have no downsides over 1-1/8" (unless you have an older bike and can now only get bottom of the range products to fit it)

Those of us who have not smashed our heads repeatedly of a 10ft huck will realise that extending the shock to include all the gubbins and oil currently in a piggy back will either be lighter or contain a larger volume of oil for the same weight. The larger mass of oil in the main body will reduce heat build up in the moving damper and removing the need to push oil along small ports into a remote chamber will increase the sensitivity of the shock.

So how much length is needed to give an inline the equivalent oil volume of a DHX2?

Are you sure reducing the surface area of the shock and keeping the oil close to the moving parts of the air spring will reduce heat build up? As opposed to cycling it away to a cooler part of the shock body.

Why would you want to increase the length of the shock making fitment harder and potentially decrease mass centralisation of the frame?

Why do all high end motocross - and motogp bikes for that matter, use external reservoirs?

Don't worry TomW the chance of Fox, BOS and Ohlins not going to the new sizing is basically zero. You'll be able to get your favourite odd sized Ohlins shock in a less odd size soon enough.

Well, actually I'm not quite so worried about coils as it would be fairly easy to get your shock modified to suit the new eye to eye lengths.

Don't forget our Murican friends believe that the Metric system is a weird conspiracy created by the French to take over the world.

I was talking to a chap from NY last year who just couldn't grasp how multiples of 1,10,100 made more sense than the simple Imperial system of 12 umphs make up 1 chumfs, but 16 chumfs make up 1 Queerbit and the 14 queer it's makes up 1 dongle of length. But it 18 mimos of weight to each wadjit.

Whether this is an April Fool or not switching to metric measurements makes sense (if not for all the crap they mentioned).

Also does anyone else find all these Bike Industry April Fool things not funny? Maybe a few years agonwhen the first ones arrived but last year and this year just seems a bit too much "trying to be cool"

Tom KP

Yep, just like taper forks have no downsides over 1-1/8" (unless you have an older bike and can now only get bottom of the range products to fit it)

Has this actually happened to you though, or is it just theoretical?

Genuine question as I can't think of any frames with 1 1/8 headtube that I'd still want to ride now, geometry has moved on so much.

Maybe if you'd got an expensive custom frame built, but then are there so many secondhand 26in fork bargains out there anyway...

Errr, apart from making it harder to fit new shocks into old frames - or carry your nice 216mm coil shock over to your next bike that is fitted with a crappy sram shock that likes to leak oil/air.

It's basically a dick move by Sram to get market dominance and companies like DVO are hopping on the bandwagon as despite their "high-end" marketing, they can't compete with FOX, BOS or Ohlins on actual performance and build quality.

Tom, you are clearly quite angry and opinionated on this subject so I'm not sure you'll be reading this with an open mind - but [i]there's really no need to worry[/i].

The suspension companies [b]want your money[/b] so will continue to supply very nice shocks in the size you need for at least as long as you keep your current bike.

Genuine question as I can't think of any frames with 1 1/8 headtube that I'd still want to ride now, geometry has moved on so much.

I'm expecting to keep my 2010 Alpine 160 and it's Marz RC3Tis going for a while longer yet...

This has come up on BikeRumor;

[url= http://www.bikerumor.com/2016/04/01/ride-maintain-less-ruckus-composites-ict-suspension-conversion-system/ ]http://www.bikerumor.com/2016/04/01/ride-maintain-less-ruckus-composites-ict-suspension-conversion-system/[/url]

"Inanimate Carbon Tube"

[img] [/img]

it's Marz RC3Tis

If only they made these in 650b and 29er format!

I think the old bikes have got it alright really.

The suspension companies want your money

I don't think they do, they've already had my money, its all about generating new cutomers and new money.

Is all true. I have seen the shocks that Ben mentions with my own eyes on said desk.

Internally, are they any different? Or are they just longer monarchs with a bit more bushing overlap?

Great news everyone - Fox have just released their 2017 line-up

[url= http://www.pinkbike.com/news/fox-announces-2017-lineup-details.html ]Pinkbike[/url]

All their shocks are only available in imperial measurements, which all we all know inches cannot be converted into mm 😉 stupid SRAM announcement aside - they're not doing the longer-shock-for-the-same-travel sizing, so hurray for 2017 new bike owners, you can buy a Fox compatible frame, or a SRAM / Canecreek compatible frame, but choose carefully because you just know one side will back down at some point and drop their 'standard' and you'll be left with a worth-less if not worthless frame and a tiny number of options when your shock dies. What a time to be alive.

My prediction is this, and it's based on the fact I've just bought a new bike and invariably this means it will become completely obsolete within 12 months.

SRAM will pay the mags and websites more than Fox for advertising, they'll declare slightly longer shocks as being the best thing since, the thing before sliced bread and Fox's 2018 line-up will all be in mm - imperial shocks will be thrown in the bin with 26" wheels, QR skewers, 1.5" steerer tubes oh and probably minus/thin bikes or whatever they're brand mountain bikes to make them seem old fashioned next to plus and fat bikes.

Fox are apparently releasing 'metric' shocks as well as these, so the capitulation has already happened it would seem.

Luckily, the new super deluxe is pretty freaking awesome, so whether you like metric or not, RS definitely has some very good products in the pipeline worth having when bikes that can take them become available. I expect a relatively small number of manufacturers will make the leap for MY2017 (production already underway for that year), but I think it will be pretty much the only sizing available on MY2018 bikes.

Something tells me fox are banking on people buying into quality kit and trying to draw a line in the sand. Sram produce unreliable trash that has the build quality of a hasbro toy. But the misanthrope tells me that fox are onto a losing game.

@benpinnick - so are Bird going Metric then?

All our brand new models will be metric yes. Right now only a limited number of tunes are 'properly' available so its not really practical to launch a metric bike today, but SRAM should have everything rolling in time for the early adopters (like Transition I am guessing) to be launching on the deluxe and super deluxe in late 2016.

Yeah screw bird if they go metric, will just go with Banshee as they will end up offering interchangable shock links.

Build frames but can't reshim a shock, eh?

Although I can see why you're pleased about the new shocks as you won't have to engineer that awful rear flex out of your full susser.

I guess a lot of people never upgrade a shock, thinking of people who do not tinker and just go out and buy a new specialized, Trek, Giant every 5-10 years or so when the bike is knackered.

Other people who do mess and change stuff will have to hope for people to bring out adapter kits or surely someone like Loco can tweak a shock with shims and then you might be able to use offset bushes to tweak the length a bit. You may lose a little bit of travel though.

hopefully some of the smaller brands (eg Bird, Cotic etc) they will bring out a reasonably priced metric linkages to upgrade older models if needed. I guess the closest to 215x63 would be 230x65 so moving the linkage point slightly down and further back would (with my limited understanding) correct the situation. Single pivots probably screwed though and the big brands like Specialized, Trek etc probably wont give a crap about supporting last years model.

Really though, you'll always be able to get a 900 quid Eleven Six etc in 200x57 - if you REALLY must change out your shock. Which I do, because my Monarch is a pile of steaming donkey balls that leaks air continuously like all my other ones did.

I just really, really loathe Sram, their products and their buisness policy right now.

Unfortunately, not many frames or bike builds (apart from top spec 5k carbon builds) come with Fox. Which is a shame as I'd rather have an ally frame, top spec Fox suspension over carbon coupled to Sram anyday. My old mans 2008 Fox 36 is perfect, since then I have been through Domains, Lruiks, a Totem and a Pike that have all shat themselves repeatedly.

@andyl you're absolutely right. Our metric journey thus far is to find a way to make it work with the Aeris. Owners of Aerises will know through the owners group that there are viable metric cross overs onto the Aeris, but at the moment it's a 1" (Note the irony of imperial measurements) reduction in the travel.... not to say thats a bad thing, its a really awesome 125mm of travel as it happens!

Originally when we hard from SRAM that they were moving to the new sizing the immediate answer was lets make that work on current models first and go from there. Unfortunately at that time we didn't actually know what the final shock sizing would be and so enthusiasm outstripped reality. The additional length the shock needs to replicate the travel is _way_ beyond any kind of flip chip, hoojamaflip or other internet-troll inspired possibility at this time unless you want to change the way your bike works (in terms of travel, leverage or other factors), or the laws of physics, and end up with something that works the way someone would expect who already owned it... Or at least its very tricky. Or to put it another way, if you liked the way your bike worked before, there's pretty much no way to strap a metric shock to it and make it just the same. That is of course not the same as making it different [i]and better[/i],

So far, through testing and analysis, we're really happy with the performance of the metric shocks at shorter travel ranges (i.e. getting 125mm from a 140/150 bike), but nothing in the as-designed 140-150 range right now. Its been interesting finding out things like the leverage ratios that work on the the new shocks, as they will allow us to set boundaries for the kinematics design in the future, but right now we're not there on supporting a shock for a current 140/150 Aeris with a new linkage. We'll of course keep working on that an hopefully deliver something soon enough 😉 Unfortunately although we've had the shocks best part of 6 months now, most of the work has been theoretical or out back on our secret test track, which I'll be honest doesn't put enough stress through the shocks to test end to end real word situations. Now the cat is out of the bag we're accelerating that process and you'll see more Birds with metric shocks on them at races etc. as we test out the various tunes via the team, and just us riding more terrain.

So how come Transition supposdely managed to make a new link without at all affecting the leverage ratio. Or were all the reviews of the new Super Deluxe talking absaloute bollocks like one might expect from the bike industry?

If Transition can do it, why can't you?

Maybe transition could do it.... The sceptic in me says show me the shock curve. You cant do it on our design.

Fair enough, but I can't take your word for it as I'm massively OCD with these things, so I'm going to have to chase the guy over at linkagedesign and my motorsports engineering buddies.

The MTB industry is full of more bollocks than a used car salesmen, sorry.

If you can't do it though, thats your loss and a conversion of me or others over to either Transition or Banshee. Had enough of disposable shit in my life, computers and phones are enough to deal with. Quality engineering, good reliability, good service life and great customer service is what will grab me from now on.

I should point out I haven't had a chace to look at the transtion linkage design so its not a slight, but I am generally sceptical of anyone that says they can just bash out a linkage... We've had to reduce/constrain the leverage progression on new designs to work with the new air cans, its not the same as the Debonair. Also, the mid-stroke rebound has been problematic for us as its not working the same as the old shock, so thats needed some custom tweaking that we're not quite there on as yet either... we'll get there though.

You don't have to get by on MM tunes, you could be one of the first companies out with a Metric bike. Get Flukes to work out a tune and then take the shocks apart yourselves before you assamble the bikes, charge a bit more to be one of the first. When you get decent tunes from Rock Shox, knock your prices back down.

Maybe.

I'm talking massive shit now, although I probably was before. Sorry Ben,

OMG. Actually, I am going to OMG at my use of OMG. I don't think I've used it in public before. It deserves a mention.
Yes, you are talking shit with bells on it. Sorry. We aren't using MM tunes. no-one realistically uses base MM tunes, but you do get points for mentioning Tim Flooks. He's great guy and heads up the SRAM team we work with.

Thats good to know!

I've had bikes where they clearly didn't even bother to do that in the past.

I've had bikes where they clearly didn't even bother to do that in the past.

SRAM are a different league from the rest in those terms. If you ever wonder why so many bikes have Rockshox/SRAM parts its not price or the service. SRAM are in my opinion, and its only one guy from a tiny bike company, absolutely second to none in terms of their support of our business or our product. I think I should tell you - because I think you'll appreciate it, I have a dedicated guy in Germany (HI Torben!) who makes me custom shocks when I send him emails. Yes,,, I send him an [i]email[/i] and say 'I dont like x' do something else.... and he does. Its awesome. Like 10*Tim Flooks all the time.

@ben: will quiz you over shocks (current imperial ones, I find it best to ignore new standards for a year or two) on Sat. I was wondering about the DB inline that Dan mentioned was coming in, might be a good future proofing option instead of the Monarch I was planning. The Stage does look interesting but I was planning on just going Monarch.