[Closed] Massive gear range, cheap cassettes, adjustable chainline!

Thanks for sharing...

Mike, were you bitten by a front mech as a kid? 🙂

Everyone with a bike was bitten by a front mech as a child.

Nah just ode my 2x gravel/road thing today and as I was coordinating shifting both ends to get the next gear I remembered one of the many reasons 1x is awesome.

I assume the OP with his massive range is only fractionally bigger range than a 10-42 setup and not bigger than a 10-50?

It's like selling VHS these days, tart it up as whatever you want it's still going the same way 🙂

Well yes, fashion is dictating that 1x is what’s happening.

but it stands to basic reasoning, that to get the same range with 1x10* you will have bigger gaps between gears compared to 2x10* as it gives you (something like) 14 usable gears

*this number is variable, but my point remains the same.

ive used my surly as 1x10, and tbh i can see why some people like the simplicity of 1x, but there’s no getting away from it, you have to sacrifice either your low gears, or your high gears, or you will have bigger gaps between gears.

granted, bigger gaps between gears may not bother you, (it does bother me) but 1x is not a fix all solution for every rider on every type of terrain.

if i was trolling, I would say something like ‘I’ve never had any kind of a problem with a front mech, cos i know how to set them up properly ‘

actually that last bit is true.

No, fair play OP. It’s about time we had a discussion about the merits of 1x versus 2x drivetrains. It’s good to see someone finally talking about an issue that mountain bikers have been to shy to mention.

What are your thoughts on ‘long & slack’ geometry, or whether a gravel bike is a new niche or just a posh tourer?

😉

Nah just ode my 2x gravel/road thing today and as I was coordinating shifting both ends to get the next gear

Old School ....them eltrikery etap/di2 things do that for you now wiv auto synchro-shifting so just uppy downy with one hand.

OP’s right thou running cost will be cheaper, I reckon I chew up a 42er cassette every 2000-2500 miles and that’s changing chains an lubing regularly.

Old School ….them eltrikery etap/di2 things do that for you now wiv auto synchro-shifting so just uppy downy with one hand.

Ah yes, it does however add some big ££ into the process, it should eliminate those massive gaps you get in 2x when you have to shift the front ring that everybody ignores 😉

11-36

11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36

-2-2-2-2-2-3-4-4

10-50

<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 21, 24, 28, 32, 36, 42, 50</span>

-2-2-2-2-3-4-4-6-8

So the only major difference in gaps is at the very low end where you would have to drop to the granny anyway 😉

Just got back from ride on my 3x10 29er with bar ends - I'm so niche 😉

Anyway the gap between gears isn't as simple as the difference in tooth count - it's about the difference in ratios

True but it's a really good indication that most of the time people are clutching at straws as to why 1x is bad 🙂

Maybe it's just me but is the 'gap bewteen gears' thing a bit of a red herring?

I have 1 x 10 on my Rocket with a 32t oval ring and 11-40 cassette. I normally change 2 gears at a time (no reason other than habit) so tend to ride big gaps between gears. Haven't died yet and don't seem to suffer for speed or fatigue against my riding mates. Seriously wondering about spacing the cassette and experimenting with a 1 x 5 setup...

Oh good. Maybe my 2x10 drivetrains are saleable after all!

More seriously, why are people still treating choice of drivetrain as a ‘debate’?  It’s a matter for personal choice and right now there’s a better range of choices than ever.

It's all down to personal choice but, if you are going to claim that the gaps are similar, it's best not to clutch at straws which are based on a fallacy 😉

Just got back from ride on my 3×10 29er with bar ends – I’m so niche

I'm still 3x9 (oh yes, and bar ends too).

TBH what I’d really like is a 1x2 for my commute one gear for flats and one for the hill preferably hydraulically shifted 🙂

if i was trolling

hmm?

tbh 1x11 aint great, but it's better than 2x, by a gear/inch. 😀

God I'd forgotten how bitchy some of you guys are. It's not essential to be rude you know.

The gear range thing comes from the fact that I'm doing a long race soon and deliberating whether to run a 28 or 32 tooth chainring on my 1x11 bike. No such dilemmas with the two by.

Triple on the road bike for the win - nice steady middle gear just like a 1x for the majority of the time, then a twiddly gear for the ups and bigun for the downs ☺️

And as for paying £80+ for a cassette and £30 for a chain, that's just depressing. Pity the guys on 12sp though. How much for a cassette!

@Rollindoughnut You think that's bad?

SRAM are trying to get Emtb riders to pay £390 for a steel 8 speed shimano spline patern cassette and a further £200 for an 8 speed mech and shifter. The chain is a bargain at £30.

Behold $RAM £X-1

If that's not robbing the elderly I don't know what is.

Geex - my flabber is truly gasted, makes mental note to keep fit for as long as I can, at least having the triple will keep me at it for longer 😉

Some people just don’t seem to notice big gaps between gears.

i do, but I’m aware that not everyone does.

mikewsmith, to be fair, I don’t think anyone reckons it’s bad, but i just don’t believe it is a solution for everyone’s riding.

i will say though, i reckon by the time we get to 13/14 speed that situation will change.

 as I was coordinating shifting both ends to get the next gear I remembered one of the many reasons 1x is awesome.

How do you manage to type?

Or use a knife and fork?

to pick up the point about gaps when running my old 39t big ring the gaps on the majority of my 10sp would have been bigger than the 32 or 34t 1x I'm running now, on the old granny they were smaller but I'd say I just jump between them.

If you could do it double blind I'm not sure everyone could feel what they think they are feeling...

I've got 2x in my gravel bike and 1x on the MTB.  I've no desire to change either to be honest

How do you manage to type?

Or use a knife and fork?

Quite easily I could probably eat and type at the same time, though for shifting gears why should it be a 2 handed operation gauging how many to lift at the back to compensate for the drop at the front or vice versa - if your after close shifting it's the exact opposite.

Ah yes, it does however add some big ££ into the process, it should eliminate those massive gaps you get in 2x when you have to shift the front ring that everybody ignores

Ermmm - not if you use it as a low and high range 😉  I run 2x9, 22/ 36, 11-34.  I use it as a high and low range - properly set up so I have 9 gears in each chainring.  shift chainrings at the bottom and top of each climb

For me and my riding that is a much nicer setup than a 1x

I was very much a 1 by evangelist, still am a lot of the time. Hell I was running 1x9 five years ago for xc racing. However I ride so much now, in so many different situations, trying to use one bike for as much as possible, that I've got fed up with the cost and limitations of 1 by systems (along with all the stupid variations in standards making nothing cross compatible).

Going back a few years in tech solves many a problem.

It's not a biggy, no need for folk to get upset, it's just an observation.

I was considering limiting myself to 1x10 as an upgrade instead of 1x11 since I thought it might save money.  But it seems the kit is not much cheaper, if at all.  Anyone corroborate this?

On-topic - I'll keep a front mech on my rigid 29er as it needs a large range, from winching a loaded bike at the end of a 100 mile day up a steep incline to blasting down a road descent.

Nah just ode my 2x gravel/road thing today and as I was coordinating shifting both ends to get the next gear

*Prays for Mike*

Appreciates your prayers...

Just an observation as to 1x MTB shifting has made people look differently at how the drive train is engineered, sequential shifting is nice and great it's actually a nice change from the previous ideas of multiple ways to shift gears...

sequential shifting is nice and great it’s actually a nice change from the previous ideas of multiple ways to shift gears…

It has pros and cons, which most folk here seem able to appreciate.

Do 2x setups have to stop at 9, or 10 on an mtb?

If you wanted close ratios and a wide range, you could do even better with 2x11 surely?

Probably, but then they'd call it something fancy and charge £££ for it.

(Yes I know you could do it yourself, I'm just being silly)

Sequential gearing is nice, I use it for racing MTB and CX, but for training it can be limiting, expensive and dare I say it a tad noisy when it gets gritty on those big cassette gears.

All my cycling life setting up the front mech has been my nemesis.

I'm glad they are gone.

All my cycling life setting up the front mech has been my nemesis.

I’m glad they are gone.

There’s not many things on a bike that are easier to set up in my experience. Bolt it on, attach cable, set limit screws. Done.

Bolt it on, attach cable, set limit screws. Done.

Before direct mount.... bolt it on, squint a bit, twist it a bit, back the other way, rotate it a bit more...then take on the limits, work out if you have a 2x or 3x one then tweak it a bit, then trim it...

In fact the old 3x 9 click sram twisties made thing a lot better as you could trim it to sort out the chain line issues you could get with some of them.

But then I got the range I need, drop 2 moving parts and all is good as it's 2 things less to go wrong

Fettling  the front mech is one of the few bike jobs I can do!

One of the reasons I haven't gone 1x is that I have enough trouble adjusting for 9 speeds at the back let alone 11 or 12. Actually the main reason is that I am from Yorkshire and am too tight to spend the money

I think we need to ask, who has the most to gain by doing away with front mechs (cheaper) doing away with 2 of the chainrings (cheaper) doing away with machining bolt holes on the cranks (cheaper) doing away with one of the shifters (cheaper) and replacing all that with a slightly bigger cassette (slightly more expensive to make) and charging a fortune for it?

i get the simplicity to use aspect, of course it’s easier, but the main benefit is increased profits. Im genuinely not trolling, but i stand by my personal opinion, namely ‘1x is not a fix all, for everyone’

not yet anyway, i do reserve the right to change my mind when we get to 13/14, which i reckon is the point it will work for me.

I think we need to ask, who has the most to gain by

Ah time for the conspiracy theory

The rider, I have a steel cassette that at 11sp gave me more km than a 10sp and is a resonable price now with GX dropping. I have a better frame design now we don't have to conform to road bike designs

1x is a viable option, if you don't want it then don't use it but get the numbers right also, when eagle 12sp goes fully mainstream why would 2x be the better option?

1x is better if 11* gears are enough for the type of riding you do.

*or 12, if you’re feeling flush.

it’s not for the type of riding i do.

13/14 speed? Probably will be.

1x is better if 11* gears are enough for the type of riding you do.

What range you missing?

im missing several usable gears.

ive got about 13/14 usable different ratios, none of which have big gaps between them.

if i go 1x10, i either have to give up some climbing gears, or give up some mid range gears.

Hence my comment ‘13/14 speed’ probably will work for me.

What range are you missing on 10-42? Whats the spacing you are missing? Which mid range gears are your favs?

Any gear i can spin is a favourite at that exact moment.

The last time I posted about this and suggested that 1x systems were a godsend for the mechanically challenged and those unable to co-ordinate the use of two fingers I was roundly castigated. It's good to see some folk are at least standing up and admitting it.

1x has provided some additional flexibility in frame design though.

And at least SRAM don't have to struggle to make a front mech that actually works now.

The last time I posted about this and suggested that 1x systems were a godsend for the mechanically challenged and those unable to co-ordinate the use of two fingers I was roundly castigated.

Well that is trolling isn't it..
meanwhile new car alert

My bottom gear is 22/36

my top gear is 32/11.

i can spin top up to 20mph (just) while my bottom gears will get me up anything it’s actually possible for me to cycle.

but i do need all of the available ratios, 11 or 12 isn’t enough for me, hence my comment (again) when we get to 13/14 speed, that will probably be right for me.

im glad you’re happy with 11, but you do need to accept that not everyone else has the same needs as you.

I reckon you would be fine with 28 10-42

22/36 0.611
32/36 2.909
30/42 0.714
30/10 3
28/42 0.666
28/10 2.8

If your missing one of those on the outside give it a go

You can reckon what you like

28-10 isn’t enough for an xc sprint or anything like enough for a fast road ride.

32-42 isn’t easy enough when deep into a mtb marathon up really steep hills.

It misses by only a gear or two but those are vital gears. However I still use it for racing because when tired I like the sequential shifting so I choose a chainring and accept the limitations. When training over a whole year I like to prioritise certain efforts and if you’re faced with a big hill but don’t want to go out of zone 2 then you need easier gears and if you want to ride a road chain gang on your mtb then you need harder ones. 2 by kinda works well for this.

And when you go through 3 drive trains a year then cheap is definitely good!

I agree with all your points @marty, but you missed out chain retention.  That was the thing that really annoyed me about 2x on an off-road bike.  (And it is why I can't see the point of 1x on the road.)

For me, I can just about get the range I need with 1x10 but some of the changes are a bit wide, closer ratios would be nice but not essential.  If the chain stayed on  more in 2x, I would be going with that and a closer ratio cassette.

Yeah chain retention could be an issue, terrain makes a difference too, if you live somewhere relatively flat then 1x makes a lot more sense

im not against it in principle, it’s just that I need more than 11.

YMMV

I am just too stupid to operate both a front mech and a dropper post with my left hand so 1xN makes life a lot less annoying on the mtb.

Road bikes are 2x and I an happy with that.

28-10 isn’t enough for an xc sprint or anything like enough for a fast road ride.  32-42 isn’t easy enough when deep into a mtb marathon up really steep hills

Cleary the answer is 1x12 32/10 and 32/50.

Feels smug...

Out of interest then and for someone (me) who's very out of date and not your typical mountain bike rider.

I ride (pootle around on) a rigid Singular Swift both on and off road (the majority being on rough country roads) as a sort of a-typical gravel bike.The bike's a bit of a chubster at over 27lb and although a keen and regular cyclist I'm 50 and only moderately fit.

I'm currently riding and old school 3x9 (XT Octalink) chainset with a range of 44x11 to 22x34 and occasionally need the lower gears winding  in places my way up Cheddar Gorge whilst coming down I find that gravity alone accelerates me to the point where 44x11 seems the only viable gear to add anything to my speed; on a nice bit of smooth, flat tarmac in agreeable weather I can probably maintain 20mph in shortish bursts in the high 3rd of the gear range in the big ring .

When upgrade time is forced upon me what would my options be for a double or single ring set up (I've kind of convinced myself that I'd never manage with a single ring); sticking with a a triple would be fine too.

I've been riding this range for so long that I feel certain that I need the equivalent of 44x11 - 22x26 but would I adjust (perhaps with a change in cadence) over time to something new?

People can preach about it as much as they want but 1x is not the correct choice for everyone.

You can make as many statements and pull out as many numbers and figures as you like but not everyone either wants or needs 1x.

It seems people are desperate to re-enforce the decisions that they've made to justify them.

Just go and ride your bikes...

I’ve been riding this range for so long that I feel certain that I need the equivalent of 44×11 – 22×26 but would I adjust (perhaps with a change in cadence) over time to something new?

Almost certainly, also perception of waht gears are adding to your top speed and by how much was one of the more interesting parts of swapping over for me, the key part is waht those numbers actually deliver you and at a point what does a 3x offer over a wider range 2x. Thankfully it's actually really easy to work out what you get from each gear set.

single ring systems are just better really though aren't they - not game-changingly so but just - well - better

top reasons for me...

Annoying chain clatter on the front mech on rough descents eliminated

Equally annoying chain rub on the front mech at the extremities of the cassette eliminated

Don't seem to get chain suck anymore, probably as a result of clutch mechs and narrow wide chaining's that can be optimised for chain retention rather than ramped for shifting.

Fewer chain rings and no front mech means less places for oily mud to accumulate and makes cleaning the drivetrain a lot easier. This means I am more likely to do it regularly and have a longer lasting, better performing drivetrain more of the time.

Sequential gearing (I could certainly cope without but its just nice to have)

Bigger gaps between gears - can see how this could be a negative for some but I actually prefer it. I always choose the harder of 2 none ideal gears and have got stronger because of it. Also my 42T x 30T setup has nearly but not quite the same range of easy gears as my old 2x setup. I still ride every steep climb I used to, I just ride them faster and have gotten stronger. Short term pain for long term gain. This is also a reason I don't want to invest in the new 50T cassettes (aside from cost) - going back to my old gear range will likely make me weaker again.

Many small benefits result in a big improvement in my opinion.

Just got back from ride on my 3×10 29er with bar ends

3x10 26er here. Front mech doesn't seem to bite.

Kryton. How much will your new cassette, chain, and jockey wheels cost you if we have a muddy stage race next week. 😉

@Pjay When upgrade time is forced upon me what would my options be for a double or single ring set up (I’ve kind of convinced myself that I’d never manage with a single ring); sticking with a a triple would be fine too.

I did exactly this - went from a 3x9 (and even 3x8!) set up straight onto 1x11. 32t front 44/11 rear (I think!).

I do, on really long hills, miss the lowest gear. But I am talking about winching up Ben Chonzie type climbs. It is a noticeably wonky chainline in lowest gear, with attendant wear and drag.

I more miss being able to really thump along at speed on roads or descents - I spin out. But I now just sit and enjoy the view more, and learn to get aero...

On balance I love the simplicity. It doesn't bother me enough to go back to 2x - perhaps I might play with it at somepoint.

On my bike I always used to get a little bit of grit in the front mech that stopped it working.

Let's not forget how much easier it is to clean a bike that doesn't have a mud trap fitted to it.

I have three MTBs with three different gear set ups. A SS rigid, a 29er HT with 2x10 and a 160mm full susser with 1x10.

They all get used in different ways and the gear set up I have is what I want for that type of riding. 1x is great and I love it on my big bouncer, but it's just not right for the other bikes and riding I do them.

There is still a place in the market for the front mech. Albeit a much smaller place than a few years ago.

Edit: I run the 29er with a 38/24 up front and 11/36 out back. whats the equivalent in the 1x world? When stuff wears out I'd love to change to 1x if possible (genuine question BTW i'm not trying to be cocky and catch people out, as I really don't know the answer).

Kryton. How much will your new cassette, chain, and jockey wheels cost you if we have a muddy stage race next week.

£31.99 for the Jockey wheels, 'cause the rest will last 3x as long as the Shimano version...

...so I'm told. 🙂

Edit: I run the 29er with a 38/24 up front and 11/36 out back. whats the equivalent in the 1x world? When stuff wears out I’d love to change to 1x if possible (genuine question BTW i’m not trying to be cocky and catch people out, as I really don’t know the answer).

I think (12s) 10-50 would get you a milli-smidge off that with a 34t.

Cheers swanny. Will have a look. Imagine it'll cost a bloody fortune though....

Well it might be a bit expensive if you just do it for the sake of it, but if you are already replacing the chain/cassette/middle ring anyway, it might not be that much more.

Kryton. My Sram 11-42 is definitely lasting well on my 1x bike. Keep on top of chain replacement though as they wear as fast as any other and a stretched chain will kill your cassette. I did a chain in about 100hrs of hard riding.

ndthornton

Equally annoying chain rub on the front mech at the extremities of the cassette eliminated

Annoying chain clatter on the front mech on rough descents eliminated

doesn't happen using sram twist shifters as you have a dozen clicks to change the =front mech so intermediate positions and also shouldn't happen if the mech is properly set up.  I don't have this on my bike.

Fewer chain rings and no front mech means less places for oily mud to accumulate and makes cleaning the drivetrain a lot easier. This means I am more likely to do it regularly and have a longer lasting, better performing drivetrain more of the time.

Again not an issue with my 2x setup - as I don't use messy oils.

Also with a 2x you have better chainline most of the time.  Parts are a lot cheaper as well

Again not an issue with my 2x setup – as I don’t use messy oils.

Mud still collects on a front mech though regardless of lube.  A 1x setup with no chain device is definitely far easier to clean out.  The impact of this depends on your local mud though of course.

NOpe - very rarely an issue for me.  I do run mudguards tho

Quite easily I could probably eat and type at the same time, though for shifting gears why should it be a 2 handed operation gauging how many to lift at the back to compensate for the drop at the front or vice versa – if your after close shifting it’s the exact opposite.

So you really don't have a feel for what gear you are using and what the needed correction at the back is for the (very infrequent and planned in advance) shifts at the front? Or are your gears too jumpy and clonky to shift two or three at the back in one go, under power?

And not being able to set a front mech up. Deary me. Takes about 5 minutes for a double, including getting it out of the packet. (Shimano or Campag of course. SRAM i don't even bother getting them out of the packet.)

SRAM i don’t even bother getting them out of the packet

I thought they'd stopped making front mechs?

I love my 1x although as someone said, it's not ideal for all, and who cares? its not like there aren't a hundred variables  of drivetrain to choose from.

Just had a look at the ratio steps on the eagle 10-50 cassette.

Ahahhhhahhahhahhhahhahhahhahahhaha.

No. Not for me.

I thought they’d stopped making front mechs?

We can hope! Not had to touch/fit/deal with a SRAM drivetrain as a mechanic for a couple of years. At least. (X5/7/9 still have doubles apparently, as do GX and XX groupsets)

(The road mechs are pretty poor compared to the competition, especially when you consider the double tap shifters)

Just had a look at the ratio steps on the eagle 10-50 cassette.

Is it that bad? (I say this as someone who always found road cassettes had the gears too close together, admittedly). 5 of the gears, 21-36 are identical to a shimano 10s 11-36. The five high end gears are still 2 teeth apart all the way down but 10-18 instead of 11-19. Admittedly that makes for higher percentage steps but not horrifically? Then you've got the two bailout gears bolted on the back.

If you're holding pace in a group on the road or timetrialling, I can see how those even the shimano cassette might have big gaps, but for most of us just slogging round is it that much of a problem?

Admittedly that makes for higher percentage steps but not horrifically?

I find current wide range cassettes quite gappy, adding a double means i can fill in the gaps easily.

Going to a wider range cassette, with bigger gaps and then removing the ability to fill the gaps. Nope. No chance.

Christ, i even used to race off road (20 years ago) with a large road cassette and triple to get away from the gaps.

but for most of us just slogging round is it that much of a problem?

Maybe not for you.