[Closed] Madison Freewheel - LBS owners of STW thoughts please...

I think it'll likely be one of the most positive things for LBS new footfall.

Once a foot is in the door, a friendly knowledgable face can carry a shop.

However, I live on the outskirts of Glasgow. My nearest Freewheel store is in Bowling, 10 miles away. My nearest LBS is a mile and a half away. That needs to be sorted, though I don't know what, if any opposition there could be from shop owners signing up to it if they are Madison customers.

On an aside didn't Madison evolve out of the "Freewheel" mail order catalogue from the late 70's?

Lovewookie, Freewheel had soft launch with selected shops last year.
Sounds like they now opening it up to all Madison accounts/shops.
So Looks like the shops need to register, as some shop might not want to do it.
So might be worth asking your closest shop if they got a Madion account and if they going to register.

But might need to wait to end of Feb as Madison have their Icebike trade only show and more info/talk etc is going to be available there, so shops/owners might wait till then to get all the info.

If this allows LBS's a more even playing field for competing against online trade then it's a good thing - and about time the industry started to make serious efforts to protect the shops on the ground.

Same, I'm in Largs and the two nearest LBS's are Magic in Bowling and Sprockets in Kilmarnock. That's probably not far off the mark to be honest, everything on the north Clyde coast has shut down.

Yeah, this will succeed/fail based on how many shops are part of the network.

Just looked for Leicester, closest shop in the network is in Long Eaton...

Not quite the same thing but has anyone used Bikezaar?
I'm not sure how many LBS participate and most items are RRP but it's selling itself as the savour of LBS's

The concept is great but isn’t the reason people went online because the prices were much cheaper, a quick price check, XT m8000 rear derailleur freewheel £89.99, crc £59.99, and freewheel are the distributor. I’m sorry I know where my money is still going.

isn’t the reason people went online because the prices were much cheaper,

Yes. Then they wondered where all their LBS's went. If it wasn't for those silly overheads like rent, rates and such...

Use it or lose it, personally speaking I'd rather suck it up and support a shop if I could, as I said everything local is gone and my nearest independent proper bike shop is over half an hours drive away, one with a decent selection is even further.

True, Madison are the UK distributors for a lot of things, including Shimano.

If Wiggle/CRC can sell cheaper, the questions are: 1) are they dodging taxes? And 2) where are they gettythe cheap product from?

Given that apparently Americans regard CRC as worth waiting for international delivery from, we can take the US out. I’d be a bit shocked if ‘tax efficiencies’ weren’t being made but obv STW would prefer me not making claims with legal implications in their forums, which leads us to the control of parts intended for the OE market not Retail.

Aware that this is a very old issue now, but until Shimano and SRAM take a more responsible and hard hitting approach to leakage of OE product ending up in webshops then the shops and distributors are boned. If the distributors are starting to make serious efforts to help the shops then it’s time the big S’s did. There’s a huge difference between some bits smuggled out of the factory ending up on eBay from China and an apparently endless supply of whatever in a major shop.

Fair enough, some shops are crap and will not disappoint many if they go. But there are plenty of shops who put a lot of time and money back in - supporting events, advocacy, trail development, grass roots sponsorship, advice, places to actually touch stuff and demo it from before buying... the list goes on. Good LBS’s are worth saving but while obviously people need to use them, they shouldn’t be forced to pay way over the odds to do so because a multinational doesn’t give a toss about its distributor’s business and the grass roots.

This does seem a good idea, order online at a competitive price and then collect from your LBS driving them footfall. But as mentioned the prices dont seem competitive and if ordering online anyway why pay more than6 i need to from another online retailer?
I am all for supporting shops but cannot afford to spend more than i need too. I dont mind paying a small premium for convenience but not 30%+. It does seem odd that we say we should spend more money to support a business (lbs)..we dont get our gas and electricity from the dearest supplier or buy petrol from the most expensive place so why pay more for bike bits? I go to the corner shop for bits and bobs as its convenient and I expect to pay more than going to tesco but if they are 30% more i would stop going there.

2) where are they gettythe cheap product from?

I'm told by my local bike repair places it's leftover stock from large bike manufacturers. They might order 10,000 Deores groupsets but only build 8,000 bikes. So 2,000 Deores groupsets get sold to CRC... (For example)

we dont get our gas and electricity from the dearest supplier or buy petrol from the most expensive place so why pay more for bike bits?

Dear God, the world is ****ed!

As Mattoutandabout says it could be the grey market, but this affects a lot of retailers and we dont give them the same sympathy. My wife works in a well known high st shop that sell perfume. They get it direct from the manufacturer to sell and people are always coming in saying they can get it a few doors down from a 'budget' shop a lot cheaper and why is that.....well its because they get their stock from the grey market, foreign imports, older stock clearances, bankruptcies etc at much lower prices. As you can imagine sales are falling at her place as people are buying the cheaper option. Retail across all sectors is suffering, our high st will be very very different in the years ahead.

I tried to use it over the weekend to buy my OH some winter gloves, I was all for paying a bit more to support a LBS but the nearest to us was 19 miles away :/ FWIW, we use Ecotricity for our gas and electricity- not the cheapest but pretty high up on the ethics-ometer.

Cycling isn’t like food or perfume sales. There are crap bike shops that treat it simply as a business and don’t put anything back. Look at UBYK most recently. There are also great LBSs that the local cycle scene would struggle without in many ways. Pearce are a standout, but most places have somewhere that does a lot more than turn up and flog stuff even if they aren’t as pivotal as Pearce have been over the years. Good bike shops are run and mostly staffed by people who care (but still need to eat!) not people who want to make money selling things.

As I said, it’s not right that the punter should take the pain because the manufacturers can’t be arsed controlling their OE stock to keep it off the market, but if the good shops don’t get used they fold and everyone including the manufacturer loses out eventually.

Squirrelking, you seem to have forgotten about the treasure troves of north ayrshire cycles and Irvine cycles.... 😂

Bigwill , you will find that your LBS will (if at all) only need(or indeed want) to stock one or two XT rear mechs so there is isn't much discount for 1 or 2, if they were to order 100 or so then there would be a larger discount therefore a great margin (in CRC's case to discount further than anyone else can).
As an example that particular mech you mentioned, yes RRP is £89.99 for the short cage, CRC will sell it you you for £59.99, most LBS could probably meet in the middle somewhere about £75 or so.
Also maybe your local shop may fit for free or at a discounted price (we would usually offer a price to supply and fit which would be the same or a little under the RRP). Unfortunately most people don't often give the LBS the chance to offer any as the assumption is that CRC is cheaper (it isn't always and sometimes their RRP is way off). Also to save on the postage and to keep stock moving we order when we need it so the 2 or 3 day wait is sometimes to much for people.
Not critivising anyone for buying online as sometimes its inevitable that value (whether price,speed of delivery or choice) will win out, but value is subjective.

Nobeer I was referencing Irvine Cycles! If only because they sell proper bikes. Think NA Cycles is gone.

You're lucky down there, two bike shops in Troon, one in Prestwick, one in Ayr, Sprockets... We have the island BSO hire and a few tackle shops.

Aware that this is a very old issue now, but until Shimano and SRAM take a more responsible and hard hitting approach to leakage of OE product ending up in webshops then the shops and distributors are boned.

From I have seen Sram are with probably a few exceptions though some people did very well out of the Euro/£ shifts. They have stopped cross territory selling too.
From the same people in the trade who were dealing with that the version was Shimano DGAS as they get paid in the end.
Though one of the other reasons people don't buy from shops is they seem to be unable to ask anymore, if they don't see it they don't ask for it - or more importantly if they can't see the price they don't ask. If click and collect worked for Evans to a point then maybe this can work for them.

Definitely a good point that CRC isn't always particularly cheap - just like eBay and Amazon and probably everywhere else online, they've built such a reputation for being cheap and make it so easy that all too often I think people just assume CRC will be cheaper than wherever else they were considering (other websites, actual LBS's etc).

Granted, most do a lot/all their own work but in the case of people planning to ask their LBS to fit the boxful of stuff they've bought online though it may well be worth asking what they'd charge to supply and fit before going web shopping too hard. It might just be cheaper and easier...

Guy that owned NA was year above me at school, an 'Interesting' character, I've no idea how he kept it going so long.

When we getting a ride together anyway SK? 😁

Mike - Shimano has just announced the end of cross territory sales.

Since they have a far larger share of OEM sales taking all categories into account (rather than our niche of mid-high end MTB) grey supply is tougher to control due to the larger volume of stock and number of customers. That does not mean that they DGAS.

Nobeer - you’re not joking! I went into that shop off the back of them advertising in Dirt. Was a parallel universe that I never returned to....

That does not mean that they DGAS.

It was for way more than that... best one was when the local distro ran out of chains - yes chains, mate had to order some from CRC to keep going cheaper than the distro price - when the rep was round he showed him the CRC box with stuff in it send to the other side of the world for less than trade - ah well can't do anything there. That was after a long list of take it or leave it business practices that were less than helpful to the LBS's

I'd imagine that as CRC own many bike brands they can order for 1000 bikes at x spec components but only actually have 200 Frances arrive..... Bingo 800 forks, groupsets etc for sale at OEM rates.

Shouldn't take much for SRAM and Shimano to sort this out, but are they really interested?

Is geo blocking not now illegal?

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/content/news/geo-blocking-regulation-enters-into-force.html

Nope you can sell all over the EU if you want, anything out of that has f'all to do with the EU so you are free to do what you want.

Madison do a shimano price promise, price matching to anywhere online for the same product. This was, I believe to support the LBS who dosen't have access to the grey market, so they could retain some margin whilst being competitive.

I wonder if this could be asked online at freewheel to make it comparible?

I don't have much of a issue on people buying on line etc, your money do want you want with it.

But the thing is there a lot of people need/could do with help/advice/knowledge when buying parts/items. (but they just got how much ££ they saving in their eyes)
I have had plenty of people ask if I can fit items/parts that they got, or look at something they fitted and can't get to work -- yes not a problem bring it in,

Yeah sorry but can't fit/fix that;

Cranks are wrong for BB
Wrong BB for cranks
Wrong BB for frame.
SRAM WIFI kit - nope you have Shimano shifters
Wrong chain
Fitted chain wrong
wrong mech
wrong cage length
+ lot more

Then they think you the bad guy when you yes I can sort/fix it's going to cost £xx,
and not buy/swap the new parts I get/fit with the items they got....

It's worth noting also that Shimano are starting to require bike documentation for all the groupsets they sell direct to bike builders. So if you order 1500 Ultegra groupsets, you'll need to show build documentation for 1500 Ultegra-equipped bikes and, in the long run, receipts for those bikes being sold.

So there'll be less OEM stock being sold as retail stock; fewer plastic-bagged things being sold as regular retail stuff from the likes of Planet X, Ribble and Merlin, to name the three worst culprits.

But, back on the OP, I think it's a good thing if people were going to buy those bikes online anyway to have a bricks-and-mortar place to deal with. Madison will get an easier ride because the "last mile" will be taken care of: the bike will be delivered to somewhere that's open and can receive the package rather than the faff of packages getting lost in the courier system if the recipient isn't in; the final bits of the assembly will be done by an experienced mechanic, instead of the usual problems with ham-fisted over-tightening of things like stem bolts or seatpost clamps and pedals being forced into the wrong cranks. And if there are minor problems, a shop will be much easier for the customer to deal with in person than having to ship a whole bike back to the supplier, or battle it out with photos of broken bits and claims of "it came out of the box like that" / "I was just riding along", etc.

So it's not going to make a lot of a dent in Canyon or YT's sales, for example, but it does provide a way that people who wanted to buy Ridgeback / Genesis etc. can do so online and get all the benefits above.

Nobeer - any time after the eleventeenth of Julember 😛 Do plan on getting some proper riding in this year beyond a couple of razzes up the cut and Troon res.

I might have read the thread wrong, but the discussion appears to be heading in direction that price fixing is a good thing?

Use it or lose it. Keep buying the cheapest kit and your lbs will go under. Then you will have a 20 mile trip to a bike shop when you need that emergency part or there's a job you just can't do. One day that lbs will be a halfords and you will leave your £3000 pride and joy with a spotty teenager on work experience.

I'm not sure this is the solution but at least they are trying.

My lbs let's you order from crc, merlin, ebay etc and get it delivered to the bike shop and they they charge you for fitting. They will always try to beat the price with maddison but its not always possible.

This sometimes means customers order tapered forks for non tapered frames or boost cranks for non boost frames. Most of the time customers pay the extra and he orders from maddison so the customer knows its right and the warranty is with his lbs not an Internet shop. Also people have less time these days.

Obviously if you need it today and they have it in stock..........

Price fixing - yes if you order online, but if you pop into your local bike shop you can still haggle/negotiate.

I genuinely don’t get those that bang on about use it or lose it with local shops when you often pay 30-40% more than online, I don’t think anyone minds paying a bit more if there is sound advice or a difficult part is fitted, but other than wheel truing and fork / shock servicing, and maybe getting the right bb or headset, there nothing on a bicycle that is rocket science, so why pay that huge premium? So all I can think is those that are happy to pay this massive premium are maybe more lifestyle, lonely or have deeper pockets than myself. Anyway there’s always the mobile bike mechanic who have filled the void.

However this gets away from the point of the original post, is Maddison’s new web portal a good idea. Yes it’s a great concept, the ease of buying online with the combination of driving footfall to a local shop through click and collect as well as any uplift between trade price and retail going to the nominated shop. But it is flawed if it’s not price competitive, it’s doesn’t have to be the cheapest but if someone can save £20 -30 on a £80 item by going to crc or the like then they will. Maddison and crc must be buying products direct from manufacturers whether OEM or not at similar if not identical prices as both are bulk purchaser’s, what this says to me is that Maddison are unwilling to reduce there profit margin per item to allow shops to be more competitive against online, I’ve heard plenty of shops say it’s cheaper for them to often buy from crc, rather than a distributor. Until this site is more price competitive then it won’t dent online sales and a lot of lbs will go the same way as many shops on the high street.

So if you order 1500 Ultegra groupsets, you’ll need to show build documentation for 1500 Ultegra-equipped bikes and, in the long run, receipts for those bikes being sold.

Is this really enforceable against a company like CRC? Surely, all you have to do is start a new bike brand that is legally independent from your online component business, have 1500 cheapo frames welded together in Asia, sell 1500 unassembled bikes off as "surplus" to your warehouse, then sell them as take-off parts.

I give my LBS as much business as I can, mostly things like servicing forks and shocks that I'm too lazy to do myself, but when online shops sell stuff at discounts of 50% or more, it's pretty easy to conclude that the traditional bricks-and-mortar business model is hopelessly uneconomical.

if you pop into your local bike shop you can still haggle/negotiate.

Would be interested to hear from bike shop owners about how they feel about customers who try to haggle.

I might have read the thread wrong, but the discussion appears to be heading in direction that price fixing is a good thing?

I might have read your reply wrong, but it seems your argument appears to be heading in the direction that drastically undercutting local businesses who can't afford a warehouse to bulk buy with grey market parts is a good thing?

The likes of Trek who won't allow their products to be sold online must really burn your piss eh?

drastically undercutting local businesses who can’t afford a warehouse to bulk buy with grey market parts is a good thing?

It is for consumers, not for small businesses that can't compete with online businesses.

Would be interested to hear from bike shop owners about how they feel about customers who try to haggle.

Totally fine with me. We'll charge RRP when we can because that margin is what pays for the rent, the utilities, the staff wages, etc. We'll discount on parts sometimes - we offer British Cycling discount, LCC, various local clubs and groups, NHS, and discretionary discounts if the customer's buying lots of stuff or having a big service. We don't discount labour because our servicing is worth paying for and our staff are paid fairly (we're Living Wage employers, very few bike shops are).

And I'm totally fine saying no to customers who want unreasonable discounts. There's no point unequivocally competing with online shops, we regularly have to charge more because the customer wants us to be local, able to give them advice and able to competently fit the part and deal with any warranty problems. That's why I'm also totally fine with customers buying stuff online and bringing it to us - sometimes even getting a multitude of packages shipped to the shop (we're open 7am to 7pm, much more convenient than them waiting around for a courier / missed delivery!) and booking a workshop slot for us to build the lot up for them.

The price difference between an online shop and a bricks and mortar shop is a difficult balance. It comes down to how much each customer values the advantages of the LBS. A good LBS makes that price difference worth spending because they add value, whether that's convenience, community, servicing, advice, coffee, bike fitting, warranty stuff, ongoing maintenance and support or whatever. It's up to every customer how much they think their LBS is worth paying the extra for. It's up to every LBS to show the customers they're worth paying the extra for.