[Closed] Low-end electronic shifting

as long as they keep the mechanical - i dont care.

Have you seen DI2 - its horrible.

i nearly had a steal of a price on an ultegra di2 equipped roadie ..... couldnt bring my self to do it. It looks gopping

I don't think mechanical systems will ever go, but I can see electronic becoming more popular and cheaper with it. Whether it ever gets down to a comparable price will be interesting to see.

I know when Ultegra Di2 was released there weren't electronic parts such as motors that were cheap enough to trickle it down to 105 level. Everything that could be reduced from Dura Ace to Ultegra had been done. This may change as the electronics industry moves forward pretty quickly.

Due to shocking cable routing on FSers, mud and an even more shocking bike TLC regime I quite fancy eleccy shifting. Will need to be SLX/deore prices tho.

oh and I couldn't give a monkeys what it looks like 🙂

Had a quick play with Di2 on a roadie in a shop the other day. Quite impressed although the action of pressing a lever in like a micro switch messed with my head a bit, and maybe not being able to shift more than one each press may be a slight problem for some. As above though, looks awful on the bike, needs to be designed with a seattube battery or something.

and maybe not being able to shift more than one each press may be a slight problem for some.

you can have it mapped (similar to a car ECU) so it will do multiple shifts if you hold the button in

DA used custom made bits whilst ultegra used off the shelf servo motors etc, hence why it looked a bit ugly.

I can see it trickelying down to 105, maybe even tiagra though I doubt it as by that point the performance increace of going to 105 would be far cheeper and probably outweigh the Di2 advantages.

Offroad maybe XT? I can't see many people who'd normaly buy £40 mechs buying £140 mechs and the risk or wrecking them's far higher. How people buying Di2 actualy do more than 2000miles in a year or go out in conditions where crashing's likely?

And the market for isla bikes with £1k groupset systems must be even smaller!

I would imagine by the time it's available and affordable (to most) your son might be considerably stronger.

do you think they have released electric shifting because they should or because they could? I personally think its just the next logical marketing step. do you think it will really benefit your riding?

I already have to remember to charge up my phone, laptop, lights etc. don't need to charge a gear cable though.

[i]maybe not being able to shift more than one each press may be a slight problem for some[/i]

As flange (nice name btw) says you can have it mapped. You can increase or decrease the speed of the shift as well as making the buttons single shift, double shift or press and hold all the way up or down the block.

[i]needs to be designed with a seattube battery or something[/i]

There already is one that fits internally, usually in the seatpost.It is the snappily named SM-BTR2.

How people buying Di2 actualy do more than 2000miles in a year

I'd be willing to bet quite a lot of people with it do. I'm sure as it trickles lower though, there will be plenty of commuters with flat Di2 batteries.

I'm obviously a bit biased on this front but I don't think mine is that ugly. And regardless of how it looks, the function is awesome - for a start the self-trimming front mech makes me smile a lot!

It is expensive at the moment, the Mtb conversion stuff massively so. However I think if a higher volume were produced it would bring the costs down significantly, after all its not rocket science. Ultegra stuff whilst not pretty works really well - I'll be putting some on my next road bike when I can afford it

atlaz makes a good point - what happens when the batteries die? No shifting? For me that puts Di2 etc back into the niche category and not suitable for everyday utility type riding (eg commuting).

atlaz makes a good point - what happens when the batteries die? No shifting? For me that puts Di2 etc back into the niche category and not suitable for everyday utility type riding (eg commuting).

It takes aaaaaggeess for them to die and you get plenty of warning before they do. Just check the lights on the control unit like you would your bike lights. Stick it on charge for a night, you're good to go

tonyd, do you forget to put fuel in your car? Or forget to eat? You get plenty of warning you need to do both of those things, the same as you do when a Di2 battery needs charging.

Interesting points.
If you're using it on a commuter, how hard would it be to run off a dynamo hub?

the market for isla bikes with £1k groupset systems must be even smaller

Running it from a dynamo hub is a good idea.

tonyd, do you forget to put fuel in your car? Or forget to eat?

I'd be willing to bet quite a lot of people with it do

My perception (rightly or wrongly) is it's bought by ATGNI / MAMIL types, based on a very small number of bikes I've seen with it anyway.

Solution looking for a problem IMO. Ditto the dynamo idea, it (apparetly) takes months to use the battery, Li-ion batteries actualy like being discharged and charged rather than being left on float so trickle chargeing from a dynamo might actualy shortern their life!

what happens when the batteries die? No shifting? For me that puts Di2 etc back into the niche category and not suitable for everyday utility type riding (eg commuting).

If you let it get to that point, after the many warnings you get, the front shifter will stop first, meaning you have a 100 or so miles on the rear shifter only.

word is you need to charge it 4 or 5 times a year.

http://news.fortheriders.com.au/2012/10/matt-yeti-asr-5-carbon-with-di2

Di2 is irritating. I can't see the benefits and yet I want it.

From what I have heard when the batteries start dying it will shift you into the small front ring and as warton says, will allow you the rest of the shifts on the rear but there is an inline LED panel with battery life displayed so cant see it being a real problem. Something like 600 shifts per charge.

warton (and flange) - thanks.

My perception (rightly or wrongly) is it's bought by ATGNI / MAMIL types, based on a very small number of bikes I've seen with it anyway.

I had a conversation with a chap a week or so ago who made a point of telling me that money is no object and that he spent £5k on his road bike, which is the first bike he's had since he was a kid (he's mid 40s). Told me how great Di2 is, although given he hadn't owned a bike for 30 years I'm not sure what he was comparing it to 🙂

(I've no doubt it is very good and would likely jump at the chance of owning some)

Trickle-down does just happen, and yes with 'leccy shifting you will inevitably exchange one set of compromises for another, but people are perhaps assuming it will be more effort to look after, I'm not sure why, you'll have a battery to keep charged and the same chain, rings and sprockets to monitor for wear and tear and that's about it, no need to change a wiring loom every six month just for the fun of it...

In terms of how far down the market Di2 will filter that's an interesting question, ultimately I think it will come down to whether or not shimano believe the target audience can be arsed with battery charging...

BSOs; forget it, for basic Acera group level [I]"Chuck in the shed and forget for 6 out of 12 months"[/I] type MTBs I don't think electronic shifting would be a major selling point, even if you could manufacture it at a low enough price point, DA/Ultegra/105/XT/XTR level, obviously there is a market for those, Tigra/SLX maybe that's kit targeted at price conscious regular rider/maintainer of bikes, they'll probably take a while ot trickle it down to this level though...

Deore to Sora level is where it becomes marginal, Deore picked up Dynasys pretty quickly but I suspect that was a cost of goods / volume related decision, and it it was easier to produce an extra 10 speed group and do an early "face lift" for Deore than maintain one 9 speed group in amongst all their "proper" MTB goups...

TBH where you hit the Lower-Mid end groupsets I would expect Shimano not to bother trickling Di2 down any further, Deore and Sora probably won't get Di2.

I'd also expect them to start ditching the mechanical variant of their higher priced groupsets after a while, DuraAce and XTR Di2 will eventually become the only premium option, once they've established its reliability, as maintaining support for the mechanical version will just become expensive once 'leccy shifting adoption has become "normalized" for the customers...

All IMO of course...

2000 a year isn't a lot, (admittedly 2000 on just one bike is a little more tricky) but what was that referring to? Has some component only got a 2k lifespan?

Solution looking for a problem IMO

Suspect there'll be some sort of collaborative effort with electronic gearing and suspension sharing a battery - an EI DI2 bike (although probably not RockShox(SRAM) pairing with Shimano).

honourablegeorge hmm maybe, get fox ctd and dropper and gears and your bars start looking very busy, wireless would help. Think we may be getting to the stage of too many on the fly settings tho.

Ditto the dynamo idea, it (apparetly) takes months to use the battery, Li-ion batteries actualy like being discharged and charged rather than being left on float so trickle chargeing from a dynamo might actualy shortern their life!

E-shifting will certainly offer advantages (no effort shifting, no worries about cable routing etc) but there's no doubt it's got disadvantages to overcome too.

If it were a truely joined up strategy then yes I can see value in sharing power and signal features with other systems on the bke (suspension control, droppers, etc) while they were at it "The Industry" could agree a set of common connection standards and interfaces, so that the bike you buy in ten years time comes with an integrated bus/wiring looms and there was no need for you to route any cabling internally or externally, quite litterally plug and play components.

Bit fanciful though TBH...

Dynamo? Nah Photvoltaics or kinetic charge generation is where it's at, who wants a dynamo sapping precious watts...

Photvoltaics

Do E-bikes use any form of KERS?

There's at least one dynamo that pulls the magnets out of range when not needed so no drain in power. It wouldn't be too hard to run a system which has a capcitor charged for a few shifts, when it runs low, it automitcally connects up the dynamo to charge itself back up.

Well solar cells sort of make sense, I mean bicycles are generally used outside, OK if all you do is night rides then perhaps a wall charger will be needed, but most people do at least ride their bike outside some of the time, no problem supplimenting mains leccy with a bit of renewables for general use...

Sod it, why not mount a mini wind turbine on the bars, turn some of that head-wind into charge for your gear shift, power pack, would work day or night 😉

I'd also expect them to start ditching the mechanical variant of their higher priced groupsets after a while, DuraAce and XTR Di2 will eventually become the only premium option, once they've established its reliability, as maintaining support for the mechanical version will just become expensive once 'leccy shifting adoption has become "normalized" for the customers...

Disagree, there'll always be a big weight (and cost) benifit for going for the mechnical version. Same reason I don't really see disks catching on.

2000 a year isn't a lot, (admittedly 2000 on just one bike is a little more tricky) but what was that referring to? Has some component only got a 2k lifespan?

That was kinda what I was implying, I just used 2k/year as an arbritary cut off betwen those who ride a bike occasionaly on sunny days for fun and probably never actualy wear stuff out or crash, and those riding regulalry and probably get through a few hundred quid in wear and tear parts on that bike in a year due to riding in the wet and higher likelyhood of crashing. The former wouldnt care if their shiny new road bike had a £200 mech on it, they'll never replace it. The latter would baulk at the cost as they know that at some point they'll likely crash on the shifters and mech.

Disagree, there'll always be a big weight (and cost) benifit for going for the mechnical version.

Except that Dura Ace 9050 Di2 weighs less than 9000 mechanical...

As above though, looks awful on the bike, needs to be designed with a seattube battery or something.

Trek put the battery under the BB shell, you can't see it unless you're looking at the bike from the NDS, the mechs look a little clunky, but with proper internal routing it looks fine to me. Mechs aren't quite as neat admittedly, but not [i]that [/i]bad.

The trimming front mech is awesome.

For me id buy xtr electronic , te price of the k-edge stuff is just a little to steep at the moment
But as my nice mtb is 1-10 its only battery one shirfyer and rear mech

Used the road stuff a fair bit and seems great esp the auto trim
But for the road I'm a die hard campy fan and they seem a little behind but maybe next year

I reckon this might be the start of something interesting. The electric shifting will already self correct trim etc, but what if you were to select your ideal cadence, and have the system change gears to match for you? Sort of like cruise control for your bike...

Or link it to a HRM and the bike will shift gears when you are working too hard (or not hard enough).

The next step would be to hack into other people's gear systems and remotely change their gears for them from across the world. 😀

They've already introduced Di2 Alfine... who knows, maybe the dynamo link in is under development...

The next step would be to hack into other people's gear systems and remotely change their gears for them from across the world.

I reckon this might be the start of something interesting. The electric shifting will already self correct trim etc, but what if you were to select your ideal cadence, and have the system change gears to match for you? Sort of like cruise control for your bike...

Funny you say that as having just bought a DI2 bike, I've also bought some 2nd hand DI2 bits of ebay to have a bash at the signal decoding to do that.
On the power front, whilst looking through the patent database for any info in the protocol, I did notice a recent shimano patent for a dynamo built into the lower jockey wheel 🙂

have you seen Di2? It's horrible

**rubs chin**

[url= http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2807/9146293686_5881a5feff_b.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2807/9146293686_5881a5feff_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_atkin/9146293686/ ]Untitled[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/peter_atkin/ ]PeterPoddy[/url], on Flickr

Naaaaah. No. It's not.

that is fairly gopping peter

But strip it of all the stickers (and put a saddle on it) and I'll give it a spin.

The latest Dura Ace Di2 looks lovely, especially with an internal battery.

The Ultegra stuff not so great, the motors on the mechs make it look like they have a growth.

I've ridden a few bikes with it, and keep having expensive thoughts about having a nice new road bike, the costs involved are enough to make my eyes water though.

that ^^^ is a total chav-wagon.

why do people love MASSIVE logos so much?

Does a dynamo really make any sense here? Considering the low weight and long life of the batteries. It's a good AA replacement (because AAs are stoneaged pish) but I can't see any point to it with modern batteries)

I'm a bike nerd, so it's interesting to me and I can see more point on road bikes than mtbs (since road bike shifting is so compromised with flappy levers, cable routing designed to cause the cables to bind, etc) but cables are a good solid solution.

That Cervelo has bigger worries than whether its shifting components are ugly.

I think it's a road thing. They want everyone to know they are riding a CERVELO!

It's what's putting me off a nice carbon road frame at the moment, I don't want to be a mobile billboard. Tempts me to look at Ti and leave it bare just because its more subtle.

I reckon this might be the start of something interesting. The electric shifting will already self correct trim etc, but what if you were to select your ideal cadence, and have the system change gears to match for you? Sort of like cruise control for your bike...

Pretty sure a dude/company in the states has already done this. Along with sequential shifting, so always changing in to the next easier/harder gear even if it means shifting on the front and back.

Fairwheel Bikes did that on an MTB, was really neat, clever too, had a bit of a chat about it. It wasn't a pre-programmed sequence, it had been done to minimise shifting on the front mech.

If the new Ultegra stuff is lighter than the outgoing one (which has a significant weight penalty over mechanical, and even more notable over Dura Ace mechanical, which it's a similar price to), then they could be onto a winner. 9050 is beautiful, but just so expensive!

Not sure about auto changing to maintain cadence: 1) I like to vary my cadence - what if you're out of the saddle?! 2) I'm not sure random unexpected gear changes would be much fun! 3) Off road particularly your cadence changes constantly, how do you either have it keep up, or not change 5 seconds too late.

Some sort of CVT for bikes could be good but automatic shifting of derailleurs? No ta.

I love it when people say its only for MAMILS - someone should have a word with Froome about that. Get him to cut down on the carbs..

I think total integration of shifting, power meter, bike computer including GPS and so on will eventually be made available, probably wirelessly otherwise it'll all start getting a bit busy. Have the battery in the 'Garmin' type device power the shifters and power meter. No nasty cables, no battery mounted anywhere. Finished your ride, download it to Garmin Connect/Strava/your choice of web-based showing off and charge your battery for your shifters at the same time.

I think those saying its a solution to a problem that doesn't exist need to try it first. It really is very good. Yes, Ultegra does look a little clunky at the moment but if you're bothered about aesthetics then buy DA.

Does it have a place on an MTB? Maybe if you integrated it with the new electronic shock from Fox? In my opinion its of more benefit for racers rather than trail riders, consistent shifting which you don't always get with mechanical (think muddy races).

9070 Nick 😉

Does anyone else remember Nexus Auto D? 3 speed automatic transmission for comfort bikes.

I'm a bike nerd, so it's interesting to me and I can see more point on road bikes than mtbs (since road bike shifting is so compromised with flappy levers, cable routing designed to cause the cables to bind, etc) but cables are a good solid solution.

7900 was compromised (as is every other shimano groupset of that generation that followed), but 7800 is brilliant, and by all accounts 9000 is as good/better.

Not sure about auto changing to maintain cadence: 1) I like to vary my cadence - what if you're out of the saddle?! 2) I'm not sure random unexpected gear changes would be much fun! 3) Off road particularly your cadence changes constantly, how do you either have it keep up, or not change 5 seconds too late

Not insurmountable though. keep the shift buttons and use them to vary cadence instead, click down and it drops 5rpm before you stand up to avoid drop kicking the guy behind, then a saddle sensor to automaticaly go back to your normal cadence when you sit down again?

Would also need an input from the brakes/speed/gradient too, to stop it shifting into a really easy gear when coasting downhill or upto trafic lights. TBH it's probably far too complicated to work well for everyone. It'd be a cool 'mode' for a training session (maintiain 90rpm for an hour and let the computer pick gears that make you do a 2x20min FTP workout regardless of headwinds, accelerations and gradient). But for just riding arround, races or club runs, 99% of people probbaly just flick gears subconciously based on 101 factors a computer program would struggle to resolve, how would it know you're about to aproach a climb, even with a GPS/map data to base it's decision on you might want to either ease off in anticipation of an attack, or up the speed to get to the front in anticipation of being dropped (basicly Cav and Froome would want entirely different modes).

Oh, and battery unit aside (which is quite big) Campag EPS is lovely. The action of the buttons is a fair bit nicer than Di2 and it looks more like a traditional groupset. Just a shame its 3.5k..

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

As for automatic gears, I wouldn't want it but on comfort/city bikes it might work. Maybe rather than having a set of gears, it uses an expanding cylinder similar to a 50cc scooter where the faster you go, the bigger the gear gets with no noticeable jump in ratios

9070 Nick

Right you are, my bad!

It'd be a cool 'mode' for a training session (maintiain 90rpm for an hour and let the computer pick gears that make you do a 2x20min FTP workout regardless of headwinds, accelerations and gradient).

That's probably closer - link it to a power meter, that's probably not all that difficult!

I've ridden a few bikes with it, and keep having expensive thoughts about having a nice new road bike, the costs involved are enough to make my eyes water though.

Ultegra Di2 is available for about £1k, the mechanical equivalent about £600. Ok, so £400 is a fair wedge, but not that bad in the context of a new bike purchase.

I'm waiting until Shimano sort out an electronic system with hydraulic brakes...

I can see more point on road bikes than mtbs

Auto trim forgot about that, good feature.

Those who've ridden leccy shifting, what are the downshifts (up to a bigger cog) like? are they silky smooth rapidrise-esque eeeeeeease the chain into the pickup gates or more like the standard none-RR *snick* straight across?

Those who've ridden leccy shifting it what are the downshifts (up to a bigger cog) like? are they silky smooth rapidrise-esque eeeeeeease the chain into the pickup gates or more like the standard none-RR *snick* straight across?

I can shift under full load up and down the block and its silky smooth

what happens when the batteries die? No shifting? For me that puts Di2 etc back into the niche category and not suitable for everyday utility type riding (eg commuting).

Can't believe this is still being trotted out!

You get 500 MILES warning before it goes. 500 miles, even for a committed club rider is a couple of weeks. For a weekend warrior, it's likely to be a month. Even then, it stops the auto trimming feature first, then it stop the front mech, then it stops the rear so you can still drop it into the granny ring, use the rear for another 50 miles. Should get most people home. Frankly, if you're stupid enough to let your battery die, you deserve to be stranded miles from home!

Dura Ace Di2 now weighs less than the mechanical Dura Ace.

The extra benefit is that it frees up lots of space in the lever for hydraulic brake internals for when disc brakes become the norm. Completely cable free bike - internal electronics and hydraulic hose routings. Nice. 🙂

If battery life is a concern, how about wireless charging? You just park your bike on a powermat and it tops it up. As has been said, you don't actually need to do it more than twice a year, so its never going to catch you unawares then.

I wonder how hard it would be to make a version for Rohloff?...

I can shift under full load up and down the block and its silky smooth

+1, I've always tried to confuse it, to no avail, it just works really well, even the front will shift flawlessly when you're out of the saddle. That's just Ultegra too, I've not done any more than a car park test on DA.

Do the shifters move like conventional STIs, or are there a couple of buttons to press?

Can't believe this is still being trotted out!

Do the shifters move like conventional STIs, or are there a couple of buttons to press?

Buttons - the 'smaller cog' button is in the same place, the 'bigger cog' one is just in front of it. See here:

[img] [/img]

The textured bit replaces the moving brake lever, the other button is behind. They are close together, I think they could have done more with that to be honest, they've tried to mimic the mechanical shifter too closely.

I must say I don't get on with the ergonomics of it, but I still use 7800 STIs on my bike, and really like the more pronounced hook at the front and the external cable as a place to put my thumb.