[Closed] Long travel hardtail advice?

Bird Zero: AM 27.5 or 29er

I’ve got a Marino steel frame. Reasons I went for it over other frames where sliding dropouts as I like a short back end that brings the fun back into a long slow and slack from. 29 wheels as they roll better which I think is better for a hardtail as you will be shakers around more on a hardtail. Ability to run 2.6 tyres for more comfort as it’s a hardtail. I ride clips on the hardtail but flats on the full sus, think it’s really worth doing to make riding rougher ground more enjoyable.

The current ragley frames are cracking value with sorted geometry.

Not sure if you want steel specifically but check out hardtail party reviews of the mmmbop, big Al and bigwig frames.

I currently ride a 2019 mmmbop and its fantastic. Not harsh considering it's an alu frame

Production Privee Shan.

Its awesome. I run mine with 160 pikes in 650b and it properly loves Morzine

I’ve got a Bardino 2 with 150mm forks and it’s great downhill but I notice the weight on the way back up. Despite the weight it’s really lively and the front end comes up really easily when you want it to.
I’m currently running it 27.5 x 2.8 but it will be a 29er next week which I think will improve the climbing.

Cheers for the replies.
I'm not sure if it's the website but bird look a bit cheap on there. Are they nice?
I've not looked at Marino and I can't seem to get the spec I want on ragley.
I do like steel, hence the bardino.
I'm 5'8 so I'm edging towards 27.5 as I like a bike I can chuck about a bit.

Production Privee shan
Best hardtail I've ever ridden.

Actually one of the best bikes I've ever ridden.

Why did ragley make the blue pig race brown?

I've had a Moxie since October, so not all that long but I'm loving it so far and have barely ridden my FS since then. My last hardtail was a Soul (the last 26). I was worried I'd lament the move from a lighter steel frame to something heavier/stiffer but the Moxie feels really nice. I've ridden frames which feel "dead" to me too, and not liked the feeling at all, and this isn't one of them.

I also feared I'd lose a bit of the chuckable playful side of things but that's not come to pass at all. And it's obviously v capable. Because of singlespeed and light wheels mine is a relatively light build, which must help.

I've been on 27.5x2.6 on 35mm rims. I like the extra bit of give I get out of the tyres and I think these tyres run much better on 35mm than 30mm. In fact I wonder whether these lightish but wide wheels are a big part of why I like the bike so much. I have also got a 29" front wheel coming, same rim and again a 2.6 tyre, so I'm very interested to see how that goes. At 5'6" I don't fancy a 29 rear, I get enough arse/tyre moments as it is.

Depending on what wheel size you're thinking, it's worth noting on the Moxie that the BB is very low. With 27.5x2.6, 150 Pike and 165 cranks I have enough pedal strikes that I wouldn't make any change from here that would make that worse. Part of the reason I'm trying mullet. Upping fork travel to 160 is an easy option too but I've not felt the need.

Very, very interesting luke. Everything I hear about the moxie seems to say its a more capable version of the soul.

I hadn't really related it to a Soul because the geo of older Souls was so very different to this. However, I use it for similar riding, a little updated perhaps but not a lot, and in a way I get a 2020/1 version of the same pleasure and the same sense of a step forward as I got when I built my Soul up in 2013. Had Cotic still done a 27.5 Soul I might've been tempted mainly for the feel and weight but I liked the Moxie for its angles and sliding dropouts.

Oh, and the paint finish is lovely.

I also considered Pace, which is very similar geo IIRC. And there would've been a load of other options had I been happy with standard dropouts. But regardless, I like my Moxie very much. More perhaps than I expected to.

How about a Chromag Rootdown?

We have a mate who is really happy with his Pace 529 - feels it’s a big step up from his Soul, which he’s now sold

Also look at Stanton Switch9er/Switchback. People on the owners group seem to really rate them. Not yet ridden my Sherpa but the finish is excellent.

Another vote for the PP Shan. Really nice bike, one of the best I've ridden

I like a light bike I can chuck about and especially with a hardtail it will need to be nimble.

Since the introduction of the 'new standards' the likelihood of getting 'long travel' and 'light' will be difficult, unless you're prepared to throw serious money at the components.

HT-wise I went from a 26" 456Ti to an alloy 29" Scandal in the autumn - rides fine and tbh I'm glad that On One hadn't introduced the Ti version when I bought it, as I've saved the best part of £1k.

I got around the problem on my Soul (Mk5) with setting the forks to 140mm and a second pair of wheels, 30mm rims / chunky 2.6 tyres and 25mm rims + xc tyres. My Soul is more than capable of anything I ride.

I've started a list!

I've had my soul set up with more travel and bigger tyres but it's become my all rounder bike as where I live it's like Holland so I need something light and faster rolling. I suppose its still an option to get some 140mm forks and beefy tyres but then I'd still need to get something for riding locally.

When I was considering one last year the Pace frames were top of my list. Worth considering the Orange P7 or Crush as well. I had a 2017 P7 and it was a great bike to ride.

I love my Zero 29. At some point I'll probably up the travel from 130-140 but it's really good at 130. I wasn't looking for a 29erer but when I tested the two Zeros I was pleasantly surprised how much fun the bigger wheels were.

I have been looking for something similar. I almost bought a Kona Honzo ESD, but wasn't quick enough and now they're sold out everywhere. I really like the Moxie, but the jump in reach from 470mm to 510mm between sizes is too big. Interested to see what the new Bird steel frames are like when they come out, but I'll probably wait until the next batch of Honzos arrive in the summer.

What's the finish on the frame like on your zero? On the website I'm always put off because they look a bit cheap but I think it's just the website is a bit rubbish.

I have the anodised one so can't talk about the paint but I'm happy with it. Finish is not something I'm overly bothered about at that price and I got that version so I didn't have to worry about paintwork.

jree,I have two bird cycles here,an original Zero hardtail from 2015 and an Aeris 145 and the finish on both is excellent.The Zero has been thrown down some rocky banks and has survived in remarkably good shape.The rider less so.

Got to say I struggled to find a 27.5 hardtail frame when I replaced my old xc bike. Everything seemed to be 29'ers.

Cheers ogri I'll have a good look at bird then, you can get lots of bike for the money with them.

I'm not ruling out 29er as an option at all either.

I have a Zero29 - that make a lovely hard tail - and finish is really good (mint green and is durable), plus Bird are excellent to deal with, mine set at 140mm and with 2.5/2.6 tyres very capable bike.

if you are tall i have a spare new Zero29 XL frame (still boxed) for sale.

The Bird hardtails are decent - and as they’re alloy they’re probably reasonably light. Good company to deal with.

I built up an all rounder hardtail recently but fancied trying steel. Went Marino as I couldn’t find exactly true geometry I was after in steel ‘off the peg’. I think as standard the Bird Zero AM was closest (but alloy) then the Stanton Switchback.

The Marino frame isn’t light but it does ride really well so far - I’ve got fairly light components on it - I haven’t weighed in since I finished but it’s probably about 29lbs with pedals. I must weigh it just to see!

Frame weight was 3.1kgs with rear axle and seat clamp but it’s got carbon cranks / bars, xm421 rims on erase components hubs (think front hub 150g ish and rear is 237g), Exo Forekaster / Dissector, Pike Ultimates at 140mm travel, Code R brakes, Sram GX cassette and mech / shifter.

It spins along the road nicely on the way to trails (with lockdown it’s done a lot of that) and on flat stuff at Ashton Court / Leigh Woods in Bristol it just wants to manual / pop off stuff /
rip round corners.

I think geometry is just as key as frame / bike weight. I went 65.5 degree headangle for stability, not to slack a seat angle at 74 degrees so it’s comfy for long cycles not just steep climbs, short chainstays at 425mm and a middling reach at 445mm (static). I’m 5’9 with fairly short arms / longer legs for my height.

The Moxie was on my backup list but really the bb was too low for 27.5 unless you run proper plus tyres. Ribble HT 725 might also be worth a look if you fancy steel / 27.5 - for the money I don’t think you beat that value on steel anywhere else (bar Marino).

Bird has a steel and stainless steel HT coming, think Steel HT is due this month?

Interesting! Unfortunately I'm only 5'8 so an XL I wouldn't be able to reach the bars!
It's a good point on the moxie with 27.5 tyres.
If bird do a matt black steel frame I might be in trouble!

We've done this before, just buy one 😉

with a super steep seat angle and slack head, the long reach doesn't come with a stretched seated riding position.

you won't regret it

That's stunning mate.

Moxie all the way. Look at the bike above.
I have a sirius on the way and if it rides like the moxie only less travel I’ll be a happy boy. Ps I had a mk5 soul.

I've just looked up the Moxie MK3, the geometry for the longest is very similar to my custom Marino. I love the long reach with the steep seat angle/slack head angle. The fact you can adjust the dropout length on the Moxie means you can tailor the playfulness slightly too. Looks like a great frame.

Cotic BFe Max
Pace 529
Orange P7

Id go Moxie 29er or a Norco Torrent. The Moxie climbs really well and is really fast/stable in 29er form. I swapped the Moxie for the Torrent and I would say it is much better in steep terrain. It is not just about one thing though. The Torrent/BFE Max have nothing on the Moxie IMO climbing.

I had a Shan, it was really good.
If I was gonna get another hardtail it would be a Shan, loved my Soul and my BFe, but the Shan is something else.

Go on, you know you want to...

I have a Switch9er. Just upped the forks from 140mm to 160mm.
Haven't noticed any climbing defecits yet, but it's gooderer on the downs of course.

If I was after a long travel hardtail (i sorta am) my money would be on a moxie or bfe max.

Alternatively, what about getting a 130mm fork hardtail and some high rise bars?

E.g a Whyte 905.

That way you get more predictable dynamic geometry (more consistent head angle) but replicate the riding stance of your 160mm full sus.

I have a long travel hardtail and I tend to find that if I need an enduro fork on the front, I probably need some Squish on the rear.

Best hardtail I've ever ridden... No best bike, was a BTR Ranger, Marzocchi 350 set at 120mm. It was fast as, had great spring, everything you'd want.

Ever since I've thought 120-130mm is the sweet spot for a hardtail, albeit put a sweet fork on there with high speed compression damping.

Just my thoughts. Aware other people like them. Just not me anymore

I also had a go on a 130mm Stif Morf and that was top banana too

I had the same thoughts regarding hardtails suiting less fork travel and went on a bit of a journey with this - from a Cotic Soul which had 100mm and then 140mm forks, to then a Bird Zero AM with various different headsets for angle changes and 130, 140 and 150mm forks. It was indeed BTR that set me off on this investigation but I was too poor for a nice British handmade frame.

Anyway, I do think a lot of what works comes down to your fork - and particularly the spring curve due to the negative and positive volumes. And negative volumes tend to be fixed for a given model and don’t work as well at some travels as others. I can’t remember all the details but I’ve had the Zero AM for over five years now and it’s been at 150mm for maybe three years.

I put a Luftkappe in quite early on which makes it more sensitive at the start of the stroke, fairly firm through the middle and then ramps up more at the end. At 150mm it sits nicely at about 25-30% sag, loads of grip, you can pump well or brake hard without it diving and that last 20-30mm of travel only gets used when hucking to flat or having some kind of disaster.

So if you think about it, I might nominally have 150mm of travel (and thus handlebar movement and geometry change) but in reality I’m normally only using about 85mm of travel, with the first 40mm used for negative travel so the tyre tracks into holes for max grips, and the last 25mm to give my feet an easier time when landing flat (bear in mind that 150mm of fork travel gives your feet about 50mm of travel at the BB).

The Pike didn’t feel as good at 140 or 130mm and as explained above, I’m not dealing with 150mm of seesaw, it’s a lot less in practice.