[Closed] Long, slack, short-travel steel hardtail ?

Cotic Solaris Max?

BTR Ranger

Oh yeah, as a Cotic fanboy you'd think I'd have looked there first 🙂

Not keen on the latest colours and not really sure I'd fancy both bikes being the same brand. But you're right, it does seem to tick all the boxes.

New on one when it arrives?

Will you be doing them in colour 🙂 Preferably a nice bright one, but anything that isn't on a greyscale will do.

Will you be doing them in colour 🙂 Preferably a nice bright one, but anything that isn’t on a greyscale will do.

No - they are all coming like that with decals you can remove with a hairdryer.

So easy to paint your own if that's your thing.

New Kona Unit/Unit X? Has sliding dropouts for SS as well.

If that's a Big Dog, what's a 'Bootzipper', please?
Are there two different steel frames or have I just picked up on an old project name from somewhere?

Big Dog = 120-130mm 29er hardtail.
Bootzipper = 650b and 29in rigid riding around bikes.

I demoed the Solaris Max when they came up to Pitfichie. It was a blast. It's near the top of my list of bikes I'd buy if I could afford them and could justify another (or fit it in my garage).

Bootzipper the same colour?

Yes

The Bootzipper is what I'm after then, more old skool xc and mixed use rather than trail, although I 'might' fit a 100mm fork if Brant says I'm allowed to do that instead of going strictly rigid..

Bootzippers are based around short rigid forks, not suspension corrected and will ride terribly if you fit suspension.

Bootzippers are based around short rigid forks, not suspension corrected and will ride terribly if you fit suspension.

I am already a terrible rider, so will a bootzipper with a suspension fork ride terribly enough to cancel that out and make me awesome.
(Asking for a friend obvs)

Pace RC529? If you can ever trust their website stock levels - don't ask.

I'd forgotten about the Pace. Looks nice but is designed around 130-150mm forks, so a bit long for me.

It's just idle musing at the moment, but I'm actually looking more at "xc and mixed use rather than trail" as well, but not sure I fancy "old skool xc".

I love my FlareMax but am doing a lot of "mixed" rides these days. Mixed may include a fair chunk of road, but it may also include riding in on some track I haven't used before then dumping the bike and hiking for a few hours to visit a few peaks before riding out again.

I toyed with the idea of an old fashioned tourer (or gravel bike as they are called these days 🙂 ) but I can't escape the feeling that I'm just making the boring bits easier at the cost of making the bits I enjoy most less fun.

So that puts me back to XC hardtail territory, but I really love the confidence I get from the long slack FlareMax. Those rides where I'm using tracks to access the hills can be tame but they can suddenly get technical and I hate riding/carrying uphill just to carry down again. I guess I've just got addicted to the confidence and security that I get from the FlareMax.

So, I started thinking "what if it was still long and slack, but I built it up with light tyres for the road and tame trail sections". But maybe that's a daft idea.

I picked up a 2nd hand Kona Kahuna and I really like the geometry. The angles are steep compared to the FlareMax but it's reasonably long and has room to spare with a 170mm dropper.

It's heavy for what's supposed to be an XC hardtail but rides well. I think the 2020 model is a bit longer and slacker too.

I'm not sure I'm recommending this specific bike but maybe you don't need to be looking for something super long and slack for the use you want.

Stanton Sherpa not quite XC as such but decent enough all rounder. SolarisMax would be slightly slacker with 120mm on mind and is longer too.

Solarismax is the obvious choice - or go all out and get the Soda Ti version. All designed with 120mm fork. Or have a look at the Solaris 2 if you can find one second hand. That's what I have and it would fit the bill beautifully, though not supper slack, plus you can fit a Front mech if so inclined.

Genesis Longitude

https://www.biketart.com/bikes-c1/frames-c33/genesis-longitude-frameset-2019-p49214

Something from Sick! ?

On my list for such a beast:

Sherpa
Solaris

neither of which I can get spousal approval for.

The Big Dog - Brant, what builds are you planning? I haven't got time to build my own, but I have got £1000-1500 available in the spousal approval account...

130mm steel 29er do? There's only 10mm in it.

https://sour.bike/en/shop/models/268/crumble?c=122

67 degree head angle so not mad slack but pretty slack. Reach is reasonably long - the medium is equivalent to my large Transition Patrol.

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New tarn frame in classifieds

Non-stealth ad!

In all honesty, I ride a cross bike for what you're talking about. Maybe 10% of what I ride on it is rocky Peak District bridleway stuff where it's nowhere near as fast as a mountain bike, but... here's the thing, you just ride a bit differently and there's a certain amount of entertainment in the sheer silliness of it. Plus if you're prepared to be brave, you can often go surprisingly quickly.

I can't imagine dragging a steel hardtail along the other 90% or so of easy hardpack bridleways and cratered back lanes. It just sounds like a waste of the bike, particularly if you already have a FlareMAX for proper mountain biking and potentially purgatorial on climbs.

Does it have to be steel? Something like a Sonder Frontier with a rigid fork and big, but fast-rolling tyres would be my compromise choice.

That’s the problem though, I’m not brave. I’ve been spoiled by the FlareMax. I love the fact that when I come over the hill on a strange trail and find myself faced with a descent that is (say) steep and covered in loose rocks, I don’t instinctively grab a handful of brake (as I did with previous “trail” bikes), nor do I end up broken on the side of the trail. I just ride down with minimal drama and maximum fun.

So, I want a bike that can do that but is significantly more efficient over miles of tame track or even road. It’s probably not possible, but I can dream.

That Crumble does look rather tasty by the way.

@davros Alice Copper ? Presumably that’s the copper at the front and black at the back. It’s almost worth it just for that name 🙂

Yes roverpig, that's the one. I didn't think much of it in pictures but it looks rather nice up close. To be honest the tarn is possibly a bit heavy for what you're after, but it's very confidence inspiring for a hardtail. I went from that to a signal ti which is nice but spendy.

How about a modern xc carbon hardtail bargain?

https://www.freewheel.co.uk/genesis-mantle-xc-carbon-race-2018-vargnad3?ps=OTM9MjMxNTgxJjE4ND0yMzIxODE=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIt8Cn4qe15AIVBLTtCh2bTAKOEAQYASABEgLXuPD_BwE#93=231581&184=232181&fo_c=2922&fo_k=13562e8b9f34992d6da2f3b034ba71e3&fo_s=gplauk

I don't get why On One and Pace want to ruin a long, low, slack frame by putting rack mounts on it. It's not intended for touring, epic distances, commuting or going to the shops on. It should be a pure trail slaying weapon, with clean, purposeful lines.

I don’t get why On One and Pace want to ruin a long, low, slack frame by putting rack mounts on it. It’s not intended for touring, epic distances, commuting or going to the shops on. It should be a pure trail slaying weapon, with clean, purposeful lines.

Although if you want a true do it all hardtail they are not a bad idea.

I'm also interested in such a beast. One of the frames I'd been looking at that hasn't been mentioned yet is a Pole Taival

Make your own?

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Stanton Sherpa?(I'll admit to having a 21" frame in green that is for sale.....)

I’ve owned three Sherpas in different guises. A really good all rounder. Wouldn’t hesitate to get another. Never had a Solaris so can’t comment

Genesis Tarn or longitude give you two different options.

I am already a terrible rider, so will a bootzipper with a suspension fork ride terribly enough to cancel that out and make me awesome.
(Asking for a friend obvs)

Ask him if you can put a rigid fork of around 485-490 on a big dog. Go one, I dare you.

Sorry to hijack.... Has Brant said how much the Big Dog is likely to cost?

You can answer too Brant.lol

That Sour frame is lovely!

I’ve always had a soft spot for Stanton, but coming from a longshot Cotic even the 21” Sherpa is looking pretty short. Maybe that’s not a bad thing, but I’m thinking long should work better as an all round (road and trail) option.

I guess that’s the crux of the matter. Can you take a modern long slack MTB frame, build it light with fast tyres and end up with something that would be efficient on the road and tame trails but still confidence inspiring and fun on the trickier sections. Or would it just be a dogs breakfast.

“build it light with fast tyres and end up with something that would be efficient on the road and tame trails but still confidence inspiring and fun on the trickier sections”

So much of efficiency on the road and easy trails is down to the tyres. The question is, can you get away with a fast efficient tyres on a long slack hardtail that can monster truck through rough descents or are you going to end up in the land of sideways skittering and endless pinch flats?

Yes, it’s a good question. In my case it probably comes down to how sticky a front tyre I need to still feel confident. I don’t mind going slower on the descents, but maybe all the length and slackness in the world isn’t going to help if the front tyre isn’t up to it.

I do have a pair of 2.25” Racing Ralph tyres in the shed (I think). So I could stick them on the FlareMax, pump them up a bit and see just how awful it is.

I’ve only ridden one briefly and that was an original Ti Spaceframe, but I wonder if this is what a Jeff Jones is made for (despite the lack of suspension fork!)?

I’ve always had a soft spot for Stanton, but coming from a longshot Cotic even the 21” Sherpa is looking pretty short

Yeah they've lengthened them slightly for the Switch9er frames but the Sherpa does feel shorter in comparison (because it is).

Nobody has mentioned Nordest... I've recently swapped from a Cotic SolarisMax to a Britango and absolutely love it.

Nordest is a good shout, although the Sardinha is probably a better match to the OP's original description for some folk than the Britango would be. Similarly, a Solaris Max is really happiest with 130-140 forks and then a burlier build takes you into very capable trail bike territory.
For my own part, I'm looking for a frame that can be run rigid or 100mm to replace a 2007 Inbred 29er. I looked at the Nordest but dismissed them through cost; a Genesis Tarn falls about halfway between the two but if I can run my existing wheels & some build components on the new Bootzipper, which I can, then that's a better route to go down. The old frame was carbon rigid until fairly recently and hasn't actually killed me for fitting the short bouncy fork. yet... Maybe Brant loves rigid bikes himself, so can explain why I'm banned from trying such a short fork on a Bootzipperk..?

Maybe Brant loves rigid bikes himself, so can explain why I’m banned from trying such a short fork on a Bootzipperk..?

Crack on.

Issue is that the bootzipper 650 is designed around a 405mm fork length, and the 29in one around a 440mm fork length.

Compare that to (even) a sagged suspension fork and you’ll see why.

Ah, point taken, thanks for that Brant!
A tape measure is a wonderful tool...

How do you think a Big Dog would be with a 510mm A to C, 100mmm travel fork then?

Isn't the bottom line there that any hardtail that's going to smash through rubbly chunder like a FlareMAX or similar is also going to need tyres to suit and be burly enough that riding it along back lanes is going to be a chore at best.

If you really want that, get a spare back wheel for your Cotic and stick a Rock Razor or similar on it. It'll roll faster and still smash through stuff.

Or accept that there's more to riding bikes than just pointing them downhill without having to think about lines and get something that'll cope, but be fast elsewhere too like a gravel bike or a cross bike. You'll get fitter, enjoy the easy stuff more and might even up your skill level riding on off-road stuff, though that's arguably a completely different thread.

@willalone Do you have two accounts, or is this just a popular swap?? I've just bought a SolarisMAX frame from someone on here who had bought a Britango

IME some (a lot) of riders go overboard when it comes to tyres and tread patterns. I've gone back to race kings after years on more gnarr tyres and rellished their zippyness and you just learn to live with a bit of sliding and pick lines to suit. Just picked up some fast tracks in the specialized sale.

Even on natural muddy singletrack you end up just sliding into a wheel rut left by the bike before or slight natural berm and finding grip.

How do you think a Big Dog would be with a 510mm A to C, 100mmm travel fork then?

Thats basicly my plan for my scandal as ive an old fork with knackered stanchions that will do untill i can accumulate some pennies for a new fork.

Downside is I'd planned to run it 650b+ but the fork wont do that. So it will need some bolt through 29 wheels too. Which starts to make the full build look appealing.

How do you think a Big Dog would be with a 510mm A to C, 100mmm travel fork then?

All suspension forks are the same size when bottomed out. So long as you don't run tons of sag I think that would be more than fine on there.

Brant, that's fine, thanks for that again. The fork is for wrist-saver duties only on rooty, lumpy but not very rocky trails on my commute more than anything. On the current Inbred it rarely goes past half travel anyway. Large, Orange Big Dog please.

No orange.

Thanks for all the responses. Especially the ones that were vaguely related to the original question 🙂 I've read them all and although I've only responded directly to some comments I found them all helpful.

It would appear that I'm not the only person looking for something that is efficient on road and tame trails yet still inspires confidence on the more technical stuff. Ton's recent thread was heading in a similar direction and Nordest even have a name for it. Downcountry hardtail. No, I can't see that catching on either.

As a few people have noted though, what this often amounts too in practice is putting inappropriate tyres on a long slack bike. In my dreams the tyres make it efficient on road and tame trails and the geometry gives confidence on the more technical stuff. But it could equally well go the other way. The sketchy tyres mean you don't have the confidence on the technical stuff while the geometry means it's still a slog on the road and tame sections. All bikes are a compromise, but I'm not sure if this is one that would actually work.

I still think what you should do is stick a tough but fast tyre - Rock Razor is a good one - on the back of your FlareMAX and see how it feels on the sort of rides you're talking about. If you find that fast enough for your mixed rides with the current front tyre, then you could run a similar combo on a hardtail no problem. Of course the question then is why you wouldn't just run a fast tyre on a spare wheel on the back of your Cotic and save a bunch of cash, but that's arguably a different thread.

Also, just because there are two people looking for the same solution and some marketing genius has invented a name for it, doesn't make it a real thing - just saying 😉

Anyway, good luck with it. To me it sounds like an excellent excuse to buy yourself a SodaMAX 🙂

edit: sorry, I keep repeating myself like an idiot.

I still think what you should do is stick a tough but fast tyre – Rock Razor is a good one

Good idea, except that's what I've got on there already 🙂

You could be right though, I may have the perfect bike (for me) already. Most of my riding is "Exploro" though i.e. picking trails I've never ridden before off the OS map and checking them out. When I get back from 30 miles that turned out to be all road, gravel and forest tracks I can't help thinking that the FlareMax might have been overkill 🙂 But when I suddenly find myself faced with a tricky descent I'm really glad I've got it.

Edit: SodaMax is a great call, except I have an irrational hatred of grey bikes. Daft I know, but there you go.

Different set of wheels can make a huge difference. On my Soul, I run either a Vigilante/Riddler (f/r) for quick local bridleways / canals or a pair of 2.6 Bontrager SE4 for the peaks when I want a bit more grip and squidge at the expense of speed on the road. The different tyres transform the Soul, and suits me for 95% of my riding. Hopefully keeps me from succumbing to a Rocket/RocketMAX

The downside of tubeless, a spare set of tyres now requires a £200 investment in wheels to go with them.

PITA for me right now as i just rebuilt some new lightweight qr 29er wheels to put fast tyres on for the remainder o the suummer and save the cheap oems for winter tyres. Then the new scandal comes allong with boost and bolt through. So im confronted with either rebuilding them again, selling them, changing plans or resigning to another two sets.

My worthless opinion:

Slack and Long

Pros = great for going down

Cons = makes for pretty boring bike handling everywhere BUT going down. I would go for a little slack and a little long for an all round bike. These super long/ slack bikes today are a bit of a pig to get to do anything except go fast downhill.

Having said that I am about to try a long(ish) slack(ish)frame with 420mm chainstays so I will see if that makes a difference.

Sounds like you can run a sus fork on the front of the Bootzipper. It'll just have to be 26" front 29" back.

It would appear that I’m not the only person looking for something that is efficient on road and tame trails yet still inspires confidence on the more technical stuff. Ton’s recent thread was heading in a similar direction and Nordest even have a name for it. Downcountry hardtail. No, I can’t see that catching on either.

No, you are definitely not. Although I would also add the ability to run and rigid fork and nearly fat tyres, so I can ride it in the snow in cold weather.