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Our government never said masks encourage spread did they?
No.
I want doughnuts now.
It's pretty depressing reading and now participating in this discussion again. However as before there are facts missing.
As you can read from the NPCC guidance, the police have no mandate or interest in preventing travel within the bounds of reasonable reasons to leave home. Why would they? There is zero evidence of Covid transmissivity being significant in open spaces.
Furthermore of the oft sighted reason for not travelling: increasing risk of of accidents therby burdening the NHS is bullshit too. I'd like to see the evidence that that risk is not offset by the mental health impacts of not doing the things we live for!
Governments have always been a poor measure for doing the right thing and this is no different.
I’d like to see the evidence that that risk is not offset by the mental health impacts of not doing the things we live for!
The mental health impacts of lockdown are real. That truth doesn’t help hospital staff stretched to the limit this month and next. Any reduction in road accidents right now genuinely will.
The mental health impacts of lockdown are real. That truth doesn’t help hospital staff stretched to the limit this month and next. Any reduction in road accidents right now genuinely will
A consultant on the news today saying quite bluntly that the way things are going they soon won't have space to treat accident victims, or anyone else.
I totally get the mental health concerns of lockdown, I've had my issues in the past. But I think we we lose 6-7000 a year to suicide in the UK. Awful as that is, that's looking like 1 weeks Covid deaths in the next few weeks.
I totally get the mental health concerns of lockdown, I’ve had my issues in the past. But I think we we lose 6-7000 a year to suicide in the UK. Awful as that is, that’s looking like 1 weeks Covid deaths in the next few weeks.
My biggest concern around mental health would be wait times which in some trusts is likely a year or more right now. Staff are being relocated to fight covid which is stretching an already stretched system. Although you may not be too far wrong regarding deaths the impact of mental health related lockdown/covid will take a lot longer to solve at this current rate.
The mental health impacts of lockdown are real. That truth doesn’t help hospital staff stretched to the limit this month and next. Any reduction in road accidents right now genuinely will.
Do you have any references or metrics to back up that statement?
We are talking the risk of some people making a local journey once a day, VS the risk of mental health issues, overdoeses, self harm, and increase of at home injuries DIY, garden etc. Not to mention the unquantifiable aspect of millions of people just being ****ing miserable.
I suspect the balance isn't as you infer. And for what's it worth, neither does Scot Gov.
Which statement do you disagree with?
I read from your response Kelvin that you believe that the impact on the NHS from accidents associated with limited lockdown vehicular travel (as per Scotland for example) is greater than the impact on the NHS from mental health issues and at home incidents (DIY, Garden) associated with the apparently total (English) lockdown? Is that correct?
Ignoring the word limited (no one is saying don’t drive), this month, and next, yes, avoiding unnecessary driving right now in England makes sense to me. Only because trauma from road accidents require the same NHS resources that look likely to be overrun by this winter wave of this virus. The mental health impacts of all this are very real, and absolutely need paying attention to, and minimising/mitigating them with outside exercise is something I would always be encouraging… like most mountain bikers I’m probably a bit evangelical overly proselytising about it. I have nothing to say about driving rules or guidance in Scotland, I don’t live there, I don’t know what’s happening in your hospitals. Go ride…
The devil is in the detail here and I fundamentally believe that the rules the government have put in place are fundamentally misjudged, politically minded, and worst of all, inciteful; causing disagreement and malcontent via vague wording and contradiction. Inciting the masses to look on each for fault, for breaking the rules, rather than on the government themselves for not having the courage to lockdown earlier, harder, shorter. It's an obsence failure of government.
And you are right that the accidents require the same NHS services as Covid patients. But do you have evidence that the net impact balance is in favour no vehicular travel? It's not wrong but in the absence of evidence its not a statement of fact either.
But do you have evidence that the net impact balance is in favour no vehicular travel?
No. And no one is saying no driving. I certainly am not. What evidence are you after about what? I really don’t know what you want, or if you even disagree with anything I’ve said. As for the government’s handling, wording, timing, action, inaction, dithering, vagueness, blame shifting, lying… I’m not exactly a fan.
Sorry Kelvin, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you specifically. My beef is with those blinding advocating that we all follow the guidelines to the letter, as if they were a defacto guide of what is right and wrong, and what is best for the country. Personally I don't believe they are but most importantly I think there is enough evidence or at least an absence of evidence to not judge those who think similarly. Peace to all men and women and all that jazz.
Peace to all men and women and all that jazz.
Wise words. Ride on…
NPCC Guidance
As you can read from the NPCC guidance, the police have no mandate or interest in preventing travel within the bounds of reasonable reasons to leave home. Why would they? There is zero evidence of Covid transmissivity being significant in open spaces.
The NPCC guidance does raise an interesting question. What differentiates outdoor recreation from exercise? It's statement that the new legislation prohibits outdoor recreation isn't however true, it just removes it from the list of reasonable excuses that clearly states it is not exhaustive. It may still be reasonable but you'd need to take your chance in court.
Something we can all agree on?
The fact I'm not riding a bike at the moment is probably a win for everyone.😉
That said, I fell on my are in the mud whilst out on a walk a couple of weeks back...
Stay safe all.
That said, I fell on my are in the mud whilst out on a walk a couple of weeks back…
I did, too, and the wife did very recently. Everywhere round here is super muddy (and consequently slippery) due to the weather and volume of users. While it was just a bit messy and embarrassing it could easily have been a mangled wrist or turned ankle. Not quite sure what the point is, but trying not to end up in casualty isn't as simple as not driving or not riding off road.
trying not to end up in casualty isn’t as simple as not driving or not riding off road.
What we need is a message to stay at home to protect the NHS, and some guidelines....😉
Except the home is the most likely place to have an accident. 6000 deaths a year from accidents in the home
Except the home is the most likely place to have an accident. 6000 deaths a year from accidents in the home
Might that be because folk spend more time at home than anywhere else? Have a look at that again taking time in location into account.
I think you will find that mental health issues are a bit more of an impact that just to those that kill themselves.
I know that going out cycling helps my mental wellbeing but it is not as simple as no cycling = ending up with mental health issues that may lead to serious issues.
I think you will find that mental health issues are a bit more of an impact that just to those that kill themselves.
Oh absolutely. I still live with it.
But Covid is not just those who die of it. 5% apparently end up with long Covid? Despite the best efforts of the NHS, people with other health conditions are going to start to miss vital treatment as the system gets overloaded with Covid patients.
The only way to tackle those problems is to stop people passing it on to other people. We are arguing over the grey area about how that is best done. If the government had said "you have an hour to exercise door to door", we might not like the consequences but the grey area is vastly reduced.
Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that.
If the government had said “you have an hour to exercise door to door”, we might not like the consequences but the grey area is vastly reduced.
I could live with that as long as it is increased for spring/summer 🙂
The problem with a one hour limit would be mostly experienced in cities where you'd have lots of folk cramming into the same space, notably during limited daylight hours. This is why the guidelines have some wiggle room.
Wasn't it Derbyshire police who kicked off based on their own rules about people daring to be out in the countryside last time?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814
So the moral is, if you do go for a ride be sure not to carry any food or drink that could be confused with having a picnic.
What about a scotch egg?
What about a scotch egg?
No that's a bar meal not a picnic.
got to be more to that story
Coronavirus: Women on exercise trip 'surrounded by police'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814
I saw this happening whilst walking my dog. How can the police hand out fines based on their individual discretion for behaviour that is deemed to break guidelines rather than the actual law. Derbyshire police have a history of his in first lock down.
There are always some selfish entitled types who will spoil it for everybody else and just do what they want based on their own interpretation of the rules - unfortunately its almost impossible to weed them all out of the force.
I saw this happening whilst walking my dog. How can the police hand out fines based on their individual discretion for behaviour that is deemed to break guidelines rather than the actual law
Because the officer might regard driving five miles and it seems grabbing a coffee for a stroll with a mate as not being a necessary and reasonable excuse to be where they were ticketed and a breach of the law (which should all be on the penalty notice). If the women are that bothered they can fight the penalty and reasonableness of their actions can be decided by the judicial system. Just seen one of the women is from Ashby de la zouche, quick google shows plenty of parks, streams etc in her home town, go figure.
It does seem like the police have overstepped their authority here...
Human rights barrister Adam Wagner said: "There is no law against travelling to exercise. The guidance is not legally binding and the police have no power to enforce it unless it is reflected in the lockdown regulations which in this case it is not."
It's going to be hard to get the support of the public if this is how they behave. I hope the women refuse to pay the fine.
Too slow
It seems there is a generally inability to distingiush between
- Actions which are explicitly against the law
- Actions which migbt be deemed against the guidance, where that guidance provides the best or most appropriate way to adhere to the law.
- Actions which migbt be deemed against the guidance, but where that guidance is merely what it is recommended should be done and has no standing in law.
To be fair, these three categories are explicitly recognised in the legislation (which states "The law is what you must do; the guidance might be a mixture of what you must do and what you should do").
So the issue is which of the foregoing categories travel to exercise (and having a picnic, albeit categorising a take away coffee as a picnic appears a bit of a stretch) falls into.
Given that there is nothing whatsoever in the legislation that I can see which even refers to travel for exercise, it must logically fall into the third category. Indeed the none of the words "travel", "distance" or "local" is in the legislation by reference to exercise.
So whilst the armchair moralists of STW may happily criticise the actions of the women in this story, it should be recognised that this is not because they have broken any law but because they have offended individual views of what people should or should not be doing.
Derbyshire police have a history of his in first lock down.
I was genuinely shocked it was Derbyshire again. My immediate reaction was that there was more to this than is being reported, maybe the coppers offered advice and the women kicked off.
I know a few of Derbyshire's finest, and while I wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of them, I can't imagine they would be this far up themselves. This was a notorious problem location in the first lockdown, car park was closed and parking on the road was horrendous, the Police were ticketing and towing cars for weeks
Given that there is nothing whatsoever in the legislation that I can see which even refers to travel for exercise, it must logically fall into the third category. Indeed the none of the words “travel”, “distance” or “local” is in the legislation by reference to exercise.
Not sure I agree with your finding, the law states
Restrictions on leaving home
1.—(1) No person who lives in the Tier 4 area may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.
As you say there is no mention of travel for exercise, the law just states
2.—(1) These are the exceptions referred to in paragraph 1.
Exception 1: leaving home necessary for certain purposes
(2) Exception 1 is that it is reasonably necessary for the person concerned (“P”) to leave or be outside the place where P is living (“P’s home”)...
(c)to take exercise outside
so it is arguable that travel for exercise is actually illegal l because as you state it is not detailed in the legislation as a permissible exception to the law nor is it in itself taking exercise. Obviously ianal and this is all hot air until a court of record gives some precedence.
Love the fact alot of trendy types who now visit the great outdoors seem incapable of doing so without a coffee on the go
Forgetting of course that the plastic top has been pushed on manually with the hand of the barista, which they then put to their mouth, who may have a glove on or may not, who may have corona, or may not.
Forgetting of course that the plastic top has been pushed on manually with the hand of the barista, which they then put to their mouth, who may have a glove on or may not, who may have corona, or may not.
If that's where the risk comes from then it's takeaway coffees that need to be restricted.
Love the fact alot of trendy types who now visit the great outdoors seem incapable of doing so without a coffee on the go
Forgetting of course that the plastic top has been pushed on manually with the hand of the barista, which they then put to their mouth, who may have a glove on or may not, who may have corona, or may not.
the sanctimony of people on here...so now takeaway coffees are not allowed..give me a break
Yes, but if you carry that takeaway coffee into the countryside how many people might you infect on the way. 🙄
Not sure I agree with your finding, the law states
However your interpretation of the law (that you can exercise as a permitted reason for leaving home but not travel to it) would also preclude anyone for travelling to any of the other permitted reasons. So you can go to work, but not travel there. Buy goods or services, but not travel to do that. Etc etc.....
Love the fact alot of trendy types who now visit the great outdoors seem incapable of doing so without a coffee on the go
I think there's a degree of snobbishness with that comment.
I know "proper" outdoors types, the likes of which inhabit STW will only drink coffee if it's made on a stove behind a dry stone wall with beans picked by a Columbian virgin, or at the other end, concider coffee to be a luxury to be left at home. But the rest of the world isn't like that, they like a coffee with their stroll and I don't see why they should not do that.
Not sure I agree with your finding, the law states
Restrictions on leaving home
1.—(1) No person who lives in the Tier 4 area may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.
As you say there is no mention of travel for exercise, the law just states
2.—(1) These are the exceptions referred to in paragraph 1.
Exception 1: leaving home necessary for certain purposes
(2) Exception 1 is that it is reasonably necessary for the person concerned (“P”) to leave or be outside the place where P is living (“P’s home”)…(c)to take exercise outside
so it is arguable that travel for exercise is actually illegal l because as you state it is not detailed in the legislation as a permissible exception to the law nor is it in itself taking exercise. Obviously ianal and this is all hot air until a court of record gives some precedence.
It seems you appear to know more than the Human rights barrister quoted on the BBC article. Tell us more...
I’m taking a coffee on my next stroll now.
However your interpretation of the law (that you can exercise as a permitted reason for leaving home but not travel to it) would also preclude anyone for travelling to any of the other permitted reasons. So you can go to work, but not travel there. Buy goods or services, but not travel to do that. Etc etc…..
I think the difference here is that most people can't walk out of their front door and immediately start working or buy goods and services, they have to travel to do so. Most - obviously not all - people can walk out of their front door and immediately start exercising. It might be the form of exercise they would normally choose, but they can do it.
Indeed it’s a fairly crappy piece of legislation to work with and can have a semantics coach and horses driven all over it.
The legislation includes “ : leaving home necessary for certain purposes” one can argue that travel to the shop or workplace is necessary for the purpose of shopping or working. Driving to take a walk - is that a reasonable requirement for the purpose of taking exercise, some would argue you can, in a lot / the vast majority of cases take exercise by walking from your door it all eventually comes down to the nature of reasonableness, Clapham omnibus, one mans fixed penalty notice v another’s no problem etc.
Again ianal
Maybe that was the plan to keep us all indoors arguing about it.
Hah - beaten to it 🙂
Maybe that was the plan to keep us all indoors arguing about it. blaming other people for spreading the virus, rather than looking critically at an ineffective government, and an underfunded NHS that works at maximum capacity in any normal winter.
It seems you appear to know more than the Human rights barrister quoted on the BBC article. Tell us more…
Does this help;
Obviously ianal and this is all hot air until a court of record gives some precedence.
Love the fact alot of trendy types who now visit the great outdoors seem incapable of doing so without a coffee on the go
Forgetting of course that the plastic top has been pushed on manually with the hand of the barista, which they then put to their mouth, who may have a glove on or may not, who may have corona, or may not.
People go Tesco Forgetting of course that the food has been put on the shelves manually with the hands of the staff, which they then put in their mouth, who may have a glove on or may not, who may have corona, or may not... lets just remove all small joys from life. And yes I still stop by my local coffee shop (its 4mins from my house) on my way to tesco or to have a nice warm drink while going for a walk.
Maybe that was the plan to keep us all indoors arguing about it. blaming other people for spreading the virus, rather than looking critically at an ineffective government, and an underfunded NHS that works at maximum capacity in any normal winter.
Not far wrong.
to have a nice warm drink while going for a walk.
That’s just weird.
I'm still going to try it.
[ making it myself though, sadly... I miss coffee shops... and will spent in them relentlessly once we're through the worst of this ]
It seems you appear to know more than the Human rights
barristerbarista quoted on the BBC article. Tell us more…
FTFY :->
So the guidelines/rules are stay local, well i did, got 5 miles went down a muddy track and fell off and hurt my hand, wish i'd gone to the forest now FFS!
Just popped in to see if there was a consensus.
Carry on.
It's not the people carrying a coffee on their walk I object to. It's the mouth breathers who drop the empty cup in the countryside (or whenever they may be) that wind me up.
It’s not the people carrying a coffee on their walk I object to. It’s the mouth breathers who drop the empty cup in the countryside (or whenever they may be) that wind me up.
Beat me to it. Should be a punchable offence.
mouth breathers
As long as the mask covers their mouth and nose...
It's the chin breathers I can't effin stand, the ones who think the mask only need to cover their chin.
I take a coffee (or tea) whenever I go for a walk round my local woodland park with my daughter. Should I not be doing that? Is a hot drink against the rules on a cold day among the trees during lockdown?
not against the rules - just weird 🙂
I often but a hot or cold drink outward or inward on a walk. No idea why that be weird rehydrating or keeping warm.
If a coffee is a picnic, is a water bottle and a bag of Haribo a banquet? What’s the fine for that?
I received an email from our local council (North Yorkshire) but I imagine it's pretty similar to others (my emphasis).
Here is a summary of the key points of this national lockdown. You are only allowed to leave home to:
> shop for essentials for your household or a vulnerable person/people you are helping and this should be as locally as possible;
> go to work, or provide voluntary or charitable services, if you cannot work from home;
> exercise with your household (or support bubble) or one other person, this should be limited to once per day and you should stay local;
> meet your support bubble or childcare bubble where necessary, but only if you are legally permitted to form one;
> seek medical help or avoid injury, illness or risk of harm (including domestic abuse); and
> attend education or childcare, for anyone who is eligible.
exercise with your household (or support bubble) or one other person, this should be limited to once per day and you should stay local;
I think the issue is local hasn't be defined. How do you define local is it a postcode, borough, radius (ie what wales did), city. Until an exact definition is given anything is just opinion from people.
So none of you think about 3rd party contact of foodstuffs. None of you disinfect or quarenteen your shopping as it comes into your house?
Wheely bin handles, petrol pump hamdles, cash point touch pads, selt service check out screens
Its nieve to think none of these surfaces can have a viral load
This could also be helping to push the death rate over 1000 a day.
Yes, the coffee lid is a nice treat on a cold day, but crossing your fingets and hoping that the barista ( Tesco shelf stacker) is covid secure is in my opinion blasé at best, but you crack and lick their fingers if you really want to
I like a coffee whilst out on a walk. But I'm a tight bugger so take a flask with me. You are not truely middle aged until you own a selection of vacuum flasks.
So none of you think about 3rd party contact of foodstuffs. None of you disinfect or quarenteen your shopping as it comes into your house?
Wheely bin handles, petrol pump hamdles, cash point touch pads, selt service check out screens
Nope, haven't done any of that since the pandemic started. Talking to friends, none of whom are high risk, I don't know anyone who does. Had quite a lot of takeaway coffees as well.
We use plenty of sanitiser, wash hands, wear masks, keep a proper distance from people. I was wasn't aware the expert advice extended to all the other stuff.
I like to take a coffee with me if when I go for a ride or a walk. I had no idea that this was 'weird'.
I think it's been pretty much established that coronavirus is transmitted by droplets in the air - so masks and open windows are likely to help prevent it. Government advice says:
"touching surfaces is not thought to be a common way that COVID-19 spreads"
so you're probably ok with a cup of coffee. There's a small risk, of course, but probably more from breathing the same air as the person who passes the cup than from later drinking from that cup.
Obviously someone with a brain has given Derby Polis a rocket. Those 2 ladies FPN's will be recinded within 24hrs and common sense prevails.
FFS its a pandemic not a full scale reversal of civil liberties taking us back to the 1700's
https://www.derbyshire.police.uk/news/derbyshire/news/news/forcewide/2021/january/force-welcomes-new-guidance-from-npcc-around-about-travelling-during-lockdown//blockquote >
Wow, I can't believe that Derbyshire Chief Constable didn't read the guidance from the NPCC when it was published 2 days ago.
Forty
Eight
Pages
People, eh.
I don't take coffee, I take tea, my dear....
.....which is actually what they were drinking (peppermint)
So none of you think about 3rd party contact of foodstuffs. None of you disinfect or quarenteen your shopping as it comes into your house?
Wheely bin handles, petrol pump hamdles, cash point touch pads, selt service check out screens
Every time new stuff comes into the house it gets cleaned, when I'm out on the road and buy a drink/sandwich, it gets cleaned.
I stood in a supermarket and watched a woman with latex gloves on, sneeze on her gloves then proceed to touch everything she possibly could. It was like she was using the shelves as a climbing wall.
Off topic, but why do people squeeze a bag of oven chips before buying? Are they checking they're ripe?
I wear gloves when I put fuel in the van, sanitize after putting the pin in and avoid people as much as possible.
As far as I'm concerned, riding from home is staying local, even if it's a 35mile ride. Driving to ride is not, I'm not going to judge anyone that does though.
Especially as if I have the bike with me when traveling about for work, I'll go for a ride.
Ultimately staying away from others and not touching stuff people have touched is the way forward.
You're not alone, Jamesoz. I do all of that.
Sanitising my hands while out riding after touching gates etc as well.
I've never done any of that and haven't caught the covids. Good job really, I'm quite busy with work and can't afford a few days in bed feeling a bit poorly.
You might have. You might be one of the 30% asymptomatic carriers, and be transferring the virus around with your dodgy hand hygiene (duly noting that airborne transmission is the major route by far, not surface)
So none of you think about 3rd party contact of foodstuffs. None of you disinfect or quarenteen your shopping as it comes into your house?
Wheely bin handles, petrol pump hamdles, cash point touch pads, selt service check out screensIts nieve to think none of these surfaces can have a viral load
I don't because the risk of transmission from surfaces is extremely low. I still wash my hands after going out somewhere but quarantining shopping is not necessary.
And while London transport has a cleaning regime it won't be every 10 minutes and was interesting that no virus was found on any surfaces on buses, oyster card readers, touchpads etc,.
This could also be helping to push the death rate over 1000 a day.
Not really. That will be because people were still mixing in houses (allowed), going out to eat (sitting for hour+ with no masks on) and the fact people could mix to a small amount over Christmas will just be adding to that 1,000 a day from round about now.
I've had two teenagers in college, surrounded by positive tests, and attended socially distanced face to face out if school activities when permitted. As part of an "elite" gymnastics display squad LittleMissMC has been hands on with team mates since September - both our kids, and their friends, are pretty sensible and neither have even been asked to isolate.
MrsMC is a front line social worker and has been having to visit clients throughout the pandemic with nothing more than a mask and sanitiser. She's had an order that this must continue in the current lockdown. She's also been doing Guiding when face to face was allowed.
I'm way beyond worrying about the risk of the virus on my tin of beans, tbh.