LLS - turns out it can be too LLS?!

I know you've read several/many of my posts... so i'll just say 'welcome brother'

🙂

So can i make my bike shorter?

Yes, shorter stem like you say

more spacers under the stem?

Have you got spacers above the stem? Then move them under, otherwise get some higher rise bars instead

Do bear in mind that Optic and Megatower are 2 very different bikes. Do you just need/want a shorter and higher Optic, or a big Enduro machine?

Try higher bars and/or moving spacers - I think a lot of us benefit from having our bars much higher with LLS bikes. I'm running 40mm rise bars and 160mm forks on 29" front wheels which is so much higher than in my 26" days.

Bizarrely I've found that a 50mm stem makes a bike feel less big than a 35mm stem - which I think is because the more stable longer stem gives me the confidence to move my weight forwards so I'm stretching less to reach the bars.

It's such a personal thing and there are so many variables, but it sounds like the longer travel and shorter reach might be suiting your riding style better.

Personally I'm an inch or so shorter than you and my MTBs are 460mm, 485mm and 486mm in reach.

There are definitely days when the shorter reach (and shorter travel) bike is exactly what I want, but other days I enjoy the full LLS experience.

One combination that I think can work really well for an all-rounder is a moderate reach with a sub-63deg head angle, especially if it pedals well.

It's funny you should say this because I used to have a V1 Hightower. By today's standards the XL has a fairly short reach at 475, but I never once thought it was too short. Recently I've had bikes in the low 500mm reach (Aeris 9, 2021 Stumpy and a Kenevo SL).

I've got a feeling they are a bit too long for my taste and whatever I end up on next time, I think I'll size down a bit.

There was a chap who bangs on about something called a RAD factor? I never took any notice of it really. Some people swore by it and other said it was a load of nonsense. I'm curious though now 🙂

Try higher bars and/or moving spacers – I think a lot of us benefit from having our bars much higher with LLS bikes.

Good shout.

That's another key part of the puzzle IME, even on not-so-long bikes.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/The-World-Cup-Downhill-Signals-the-End-of-Flat-Pedals.html

A decade old (but DH bikes are a bit ahead on the slack front) article suggesting the pedals could be key to this whole thing.

I'm another short bike fan. At a smidge over 6 foot I'm on a Bird ML and Santa cruz L.

Do bear in mind that Optic and Megatower are 2 very different bikes. Do you just need/want a shorter and higher Optic, or a big Enduro machine?

a part of me will be swallowing my own words. Since owning the Optic i have banged on to those around me how you dont need long travel, its more about line choice and optimising what you have.... but having ridden something with a chunk more, i think i am up for enjoying something with a bit more travel. And the V1 Megatower is quite conservative compared to most, so it might be the right mix of travel and geo.

Try higher bars and/or moving spacers

Then move them under, otherwise get some higher rise bars instead

Sounds like some experimenting is required!

We do all appreciate that the 'low' in LLS is reference to the the bottom bracket height don't we? Nothing to do with bar height.

Oddly when I got my (not demoed) Bird Aether 9c in 2021 I was surprised how short it felt JRA. This was coming off a 2009 turner. In reality the extra reach was cancelled out in the sitting position by the much steeper seat angle. The much shorter stem made a difference too I guess.

Biggest difference riding out of the saddle was a change in style - less arse over the back, more sinking into the frame down the steep stuff.

Bizarrely I’ve found that a 50mm stem makes a bike feel less big than a 35mm stem – which I think is because the more stable longer stem gives me the confidence to move my weight forwards so I’m stretching less to reach the bars.

Ah, not just me then. Initally used a 50mm stem on my LLS bike, then swapped to same stem in 35mm length. Didn't like it - felt I wasn't getting my weight far enough forward to properly weight the front wheel. Persevered for a while but eventually swapped back to the 50mm one. Much better. That was a XL Geometron, 535 reach and 187cm me (previous bike was 'only' 470 reach).

I've since swapped to a 520mm reach similar version (G16 instead of the G15 I had) but stuck with the 50mm stem. I think I 'over-reached' myself with the XL G15 initially, so yes perhaps you can go too LLS. Possibly blasphemous to say when talking about Geometrons I know 🙂

Swapping from 20mm to 38mm rise bars made a good difference for me too.

We do all appreciate that the ‘low’ in LLS is reference to the the bottom bracket height don’t we? Nothing to do with bar height.

Yes but i'm not sure that's how things are percieved nowdays, that's kinda how the genre was first formed, but more and more the LLS is more 'cockpit' related in most peoples minds rather than the BB height/drop.

It's moved on a little in a terminology context i think.

Really - I don't see that.

Looking at geometry charts of 2022 notoriously LLS bikes and comparing to bikes from a decade ago I see lower BB heights, but not markedly shorter stack heights (which would directly impact bar height). Though appreciate we ride longer forks now so in certain circumstances at the end of the stroke that even a longer stack can compress up to low bars for a moment or two.

You sure it's not just riders used to older bikes now being older themselves and therefore less flexible and 'dynamic' and blaming it on the bike 😉

MAybe i'm wrong in my perception. That's how it seems to me.. But happy to be incorrect.

You sure it’s not just riders used to older bikes now being older themselves and therefore less flexible and ‘dynamic’ and blaming it on the bike

I think that's deffo a chunk of it, certainly for me anyway and why i find more 'old school' type reach/position is nicer for myself.

You have trouble weighting the front of the Optic and everyone is telling you to put a shorter stem on it.

How is that going to work? Short stems don't make the wheelbase shorter.

"but more and more the LLS is more ‘cockpit’ related in most peoples minds rather than the BB height/drop."

It's definitely not - stack heights are far higher nowadays than they used to be, due to bigger wheels, bigger forks (usually) and then you can add riser bars to that.

You have trouble weighting the front of the Optic and everyone is telling you to put a shorter stem on it.

maybe i worded it wrongly, i don't have too much trouble weighing the front, i guess the feeling is more that i am further forward on the bike, possibly due to the longer reach, which in turn makes it harder to drop my heels, as i am naturally more forward on the bike.

I guess part of it is i haven't really identified this or felt it was a problem, until riding something a bit shorter and taller, which in turn has highlighted these feelings.

I haven't been back on my Optic since riding the Megatower, so potentially it could all be in my head.....?!

You're more than welcome to try my Slayer to see if that helps fully evaluate matey.

I haven’t been back on my Optic since riding the Megatower, so potentially it could all be in my head…..?!

Grass is always greener etc.

It was only extensive riding on a slightly shorter - but still LLS - reach bike that convinced me to try a shorter replacement for mine. I was lucky to then ride both back to back on the same trails, making my decision easier.

i find when riding clips it shifts my foot back on teh pedal and the effect on the body position on teh bike is noticeable. it also effects you physical height on teh bike as the pedal/shoe stack above the axle is greater.

you probably noticed the compounded effect of the extra reach from teh foot being further back and the long frame and the low front end.

heavy feet light hands is the mantra is it not?. you cant drop yer heels (as much) if you are stretching for the bars.

remember bars are also differnt and affect body position. the boggo nukeproof bars with loads of sweep reduce the reach to teh grips by about 20mm over a pair on renthals for instance!

You sure it’s not just riders used to older bikes now being older themselves and therefore less flexible and ‘dynamic’ and blaming it on the bike 😉

I'd say long wheelbases are bailing us middle-aged riders out, as we don't need to be making so many micro-corrections to keep upright and on track.

Personally, I am anti shorter stems (sub 50mm) because they force you to ‘have’ to ride the bike aggressively over the front end to generate front end grip.

I’m 185cm & my bikes vary in size from 470mm reach (FF ebike, so doesn’t need to be as big to increase stability) to ~500mm, which is a touch too long for me personally, but it still works. I would say you are on a fairly big bike for your height (excluding oddities such as Paul Aston / Geometron, which I don’t think are the answer).

Maybe what you are experiencing is a bit more of a balance of reach to chainstay ratio? The Optic has pretty short stays at 435mm - I have a Spur which is almost identical in geometry & it feels like a 4X bike in comparison to some of my other bikes when pushing on down a flow trail.

I don’t think you can isolate reach as the only issue here. Also, clips make a significant difference if you are having foot management issues, dropping heels is almost irrelevant in terms of feel, albeit a bad practice as not doing it massively affects the bikes grip in certain scenarios IMO. Also on a shorter travel bike it makes a bigger noticeable difference. Now we are in winter, my Spur is the only bike left with clips on it until the weather improves.

The low in long low slack definitely refers to the bb height in my head,and that of most people I talk bikes with.

As mentioned above, handlebar heights are getting higher not lower.

As per hobnob,I think the reach to chainstay length ratio affects things massively. And is hugely personal pref.

But there are so many othe differences between different bikes that you ( or rather I) cant really pin handling traits on any one thing.

I have bikes that vary in reach from 455 to 480mm and I like them all. I prefer the one with the longest reach,but probably not because it has the longest reach, but a combination of loads of things that make it my preferred bike

We're still in a transition of understanding LLS. This thread is a perfect example of the different things it means to different people. Mercifully, folk are beginning to realise there's more to it than long reach figures.

I think most of your observations are correct.

maybe i worded it wrongly, i don’t have too much trouble weighing the front, i guess the feeling is more that i am further forward on the bike, possibly due to the longer reach, which in turn makes it harder to drop my heels, as i am naturally more forward on the bike.

Bar height. It you're less hunched to reach the bars, you'll have more range of movement. FWIW, at 6ft, I'm settling on reaches c. 480 to 495. I think you're on the long side for someone of your height. The longer the reach, the taller your bar height needs to be IMO, but theres a balance to be found there with climbing weight distribution and wandery front ends. (Off set by a greater weight distribution to the front wheel due to a more forward position). So, bring your seat forward (and up a little) and raise your bars before shortening you stem.

You can't look at this stuff in isolation though. Steeper seat angle = more reach and higher bars, but if you don't have the wheel out front far enough your weight distribution will be horrendous.

A decade old (but DH bikes are a bit ahead on the slack front) article suggesting the pedals could be key to this whole thing.

Anyone who rides a HT on rough terrain rather than dirt pistes knows this IMO. It's still a preference choice for most of us though. A choice that I suspect is largely made on the basis of where one finds confidence - locked in and secure, or free to bail out immediately.

The low in long low slack definitely refers to the bb height in my head,and that of most people I talk bikes with

That's what it means, no question about it.

I do think it’s easy to go to big and we all have different styles and preferences

I’m 5’9 same as the op and rode a Bird Aeris 145 lt in ML (481mm reach) for nearly 3 years and after an initial period where I was getting faster and faster I found I struggled to get enough weight over the front for fast and flat corners. I had coaching and got better at it but there was always that nagging feeling. Tried a few different length stems etc - 40mm and 32mm etc

Switched to an Aether 7 in medium with maybe a 457 reach and a 50mm stem abs it was a game changer. Still benefitted from aggressive riding but I had so much more front wheel confidence. Obviously it was rougher on stuff like at Antur Stiniog but I enjoyed the bike so much more.

Now on a Transition Sentinel medium - 451mm reach and 50mm stem and 29er - also love this bike. Plenty of front wheel grip but with the bigger wheels and a bit more travel it rocks. Feels more trail than enduro smasher but gives you an easier time on the rough stuff.

You need a new bike/frame with a smaller reach IMO

I’m 5’9 same as the op and rode a Bird Aeris 145 lt in ML (481mm reach) for nearly 3 years and after an initial period where I was getting faster and faster I found I struggled to get enough weight over the front for fast and flat corners. I had coaching and got better at it but there was always that nagging feeling. Tried a few different length stems etc – 40mm and 32mm etc

Switched to an Aether 7 in medium with maybe a 457 reach and a 50mm stem abs it was a game changer. Still benefitted from aggressive riding but I had so much more front wheel confidence.

Those Birds were from their short chainstay days, I believe? So the first one was likely a bit unbalanced front-to-rear.

Your current Sentinel will have a better balance than either IMO.

hmmmm... lots to digest here. Many thanks for all the feedback thus far chaps.

I think i need to firstly get back on the Optic and secondly see if i can try some other bikes to try and nail down what i am feeling. Be it placebo effect or actual improvements.

I have never been uncomfortable on my Optic, but do sometimes feel like i am more of a passenger than being the pilot, but i always put that down to how much input i put in (aka, if i am being lazy or not).

Coincidently, at Ard Rock i got measured on the Atherton stand and they put me on a 470mm reach 'Low' frame. My buddy has a 470mm regular AM150 on order, so will be interesting to have a go on that.

Certainly plenty of food for thought.

oh and i look at the Low in LLS as the BB. kinda assumed everyone did?

Rather than dropping your heels (emphasis on plural!), try to weight your feet evenly and sink between the pedals so your feet form a V and your weight remains centred. This is more important with a longer reach bike.

Dropping the trailing heel extends your leg (reducing vertical compliance), rotates your hips and moves your weight back (unweighting the front). Pushing down centrally over the BB weights the wheels and generates tyre grip. On flats this also allows equal outward pressure with your feet in a V, generating more pedal grip.

Roxy explains it pretty well;

more of a passenger than being the pilot,

less travel will do that. as you reach your comfort limits faster. i ride a rigid singlespeed as an alternative to my suspension bikes and there is definately less control! less speed as well and more sounds of anguish and terror

If you're going to try different stems, measure what's on there if you haven't already. Spec Sheet says 2021 Large Optic has a 45mm stem, but mine arrived with a 55mm stem.

What a great video. Thanks for sharing

If you’re going to try different stems, measure what’s on there if you haven’t already. Spec Sheet says 2021 Large Optic has a 45mm stem, but mine arrived with a 55mm stem.

mine came with a 45mm, but i changed it to a 42.5mm.... just cos i liked the look of the Unite one 🙂

@diggery - i will check the video and oddly watched something about this a while ago. Maybe its time to update my (poor) technique.

less travel will do that.

glad its not exclusive to me!

When was the last time the forks, shock (which sounds like it needs attention) and frame bearings were serviced?
If your feet are being bounced off the pedals and the rear end is well overdue a service, then this is the start of your problems. If I get a year out of a set of frame bearings, I'm doing well!

I'm not keen on bikes with super short back ends and big reaches, the balance is all off and you end up with something that you have to ride off the front, which few of us can, all the time!

G1 515/455
KSL 485/447
Stumpy 480/432

All three of those end up with the same weight split within a percent. I tried the S5 stumpy and wasn't keen, it felt like the same issue my XL smuggler had, the balance was all off, which was made even worse with anglecups.
I had an XL ransom, the back end on that was 465 and it was really stable, but hard work to get the front up, made easier when I mulleted it.

When was the last time the forks, shock (which sounds like it needs attention) and frame bearings were serviced?

fork and shock was just before i did the Mega, so about 6 months ago. Frame bearings admittedly haven't changed in quite a while, but feel smooth when the shock is removed.

I agree with some bikes being imbalanced. I remember reading Enduro mags take on the Commencal Meta SX (or may have been an AM), but they said due to same length chainstays across all sizes, the large and above were inbalanced.

Is there a formula you use to work it out? As i assume headtube angle would come into play with regards to everything in front or behind the BB? Or am i talking out of my backside?! 😛

Long reach is the new short chainstays isn't it. Things get changed from what we're used to, the change can be good but at the extremes it's a bit specialist.

Is there a formula you use to work it out? As i assume headtube angle would come into play with regards to everything in front or behind the BB? Or am i talking out of my backside?! 😛

My understanding about comparing front/rear balance is it's normally chainstay length and reach that are compared (like @SirHC's figures above). Thankfully for someone like me who's on XL sized bikes, the old fashion of the same length chainstays on all frame sizes is becoming less common. Longer reach balanced by longish chainstays puts the rider more centred between the wheels, which I like.

I also look at rear/front balance too because, like you say, HA comes into it. I'm unsure on the value of comparing this though as there's only a small range of variance in chainstay length (generally for 29ers it's 430-455mm ish), whereas front-centre can vary a lot more. Front-centre being BB to front axle, i.e. wheelbase minus chainstay length.

@chakaping

Those Birds were from their short chainstay days, I believe? So the first one was likely a bit unbalanced front-to-rear.

Your current Sentinel will have a better balance than either IMO.

The Aeris wasn’t massively short I don’t think - maybe 430 or 435.

The Aether is though - 425mm chainstays. I liked that though - nice and easy to pop the front wheel in the air and cornered really well. I imagine the balance is worse when you get longer reach than the medium though.

Sentinel is more balanced - think it’s 451 reach vs 440 ish chainstays. I’d say it’s marginally slower then the Aether 145lt through fast rocky stuff just because it’s shorter overall and less stable (plus 10mm less travel at each end) - but literally everywhere else it’s quicker for me. Faster in the corners - I was worried going to 29er would make it harder but it really hasn’t. Plus the big front wheel is more confidence inspiring rolling off drops. Love it.

@V7fmp

If you’re anywhere near Bristol you’re welcome to have a go on my Medium Sentinel for comparison purposes. I did consider an Optic when I got the Sentinel but couldn’t get one frame only. Also considered the Bird Aether 9 / 9c (was out of stock) and Nukeproof Reactor (alloy was out of stock and carbon was a bit pricey). Also considered a secondhand Evil Offering - but decided that was a bit too risky.

@joebristol - cool, i will give you a shout if ever your way. Going to a few posts back, when you changed from 481 reach to 451 of the Sentinel, did you test ride or sit on one? Many manufacturers suggest a medium for me, but these reach numbers are around 450ish, which i fear would be too short?

I had a car-park test of a colleagues medium 275 Vitus Sommet, which has a reach of 449mm and once standing it felt like the bars were on my knees (possibly exaggerating for entertainment purposes, but it felt short).... yet in lockdown i rode a Ragley Big Al in medium for a while, which was an equally short reach and it never worried me.

(I fully understand that the sum of a bike size is more than reach mind).

@V7fmp

I didn’t test ride no - just bought the frame and went for it. It was just after the Aether 7 came out and I got it a month before lockdowns started in 2020. Running a 50mm stem it just feels right vs the 32mm stem / 482mm reach I had.

I’d say on a shorter reach with a modern steep seat angle it’s sitting down (ETT) that’s more cramped vs older bikes - rather than standing up.

I find in most ranges of bikes there’s almost a gap for people our height - something in the 465mm range would be ideal I reckon. That’s what the atherton calculator suggests for me (but they are way out of budget).

I think only Commencal and Orange have bikes with that sort of reach from last time I looked. Everywhere else is sub 460mm reach for a medium and over 470 for a ML or L.

I find in most ranges of bikes there’s almost a gap for people our height – something in the 465mm range would be ideal I reckon.

yeah, i think you are right.

I appreciate your feedback tho, it is putting my mind to rest with regards to 'sizing down'. Or rather adding more food for thought.... Raaw Madonna... mmmmm 🙂

I currently ride a large Evil Offering and find the back end a bit short. I notice it most when climbing as its quite hard to keep the front end from wandering. Its a 477 reach and 430 chain stay. I would want my next bike to have longer chainstays to balance it for the ups better

There was a different thread recently discussion bar height, where someone described the difference in low and high bar height as being pulled forward versus being able to push on the bars, that description really resonated with me. I feel the same with reach too.

Im 5ft9.5, leggy, had bikes with reach up to 475mm, subsequently came back to 460mm felt better, gone even further back to 450mm with things getting even better. All with 35mm stem. I run "high" bars. Flat pedals. Same feeling as the description above, it's the feeling of being pulled forward (long) versus pushing on the bars (shorter). I think flexibility and how active you are on the bikes comes into it too.

So yeah, different sizes work better for different people, but yeah totally, longer isn't always better, shorter isn't going to be always better either.

So can i make my bike shorter? A shorter 35mm stem (to replacer the 42.5mm stem on there), more spacers under the stem?

All of that lifts your weight off the front wheel, so you'll still have to consciously weight the front, possibly more so. You will have a better view and be able to pop the front wheel more easily though.

you could play with pure bar height - worth a watch of this from 13 mins.

yeah, i think you are right.

I appreciate your feedback tho, it is putting my mind to rest with regards to ‘sizing down’. Or rather adding more food for thought…. Raaw Madonna… mmmmm 🙂

There’s a whopping hole in the Raaw Madonna range too - 455 up to 480. Chainstays look fairly balanced against reach. It’s a lot of bike though - imagine more than a V1 Megatower to ride.

Madonna has longer chainstays and wheelbase size for size - also has a much higher stack.

Wonder if it’s worth a look at the Privateer 141 or 161 too? P2 in the 141 is 465mm reach and P2 in the 161 is 470mm reach so in the right ballpark

If you can wait a few weeks you can try a 141 in a P2 and the Slayer

I appreciate your feedback tho, it is putting my mind to rest with regards to ‘sizing down’. Or rather adding more food for thought…. Raaw Madonna… mmmmm

The Madonna if you stayed size for size would be a really big bike for you, even with a shorter ETT. As context, I have a V2.2 which is my holiday/big race bike in a L & i’m considerably taller than you. As a race bike, I accept its a bit smaller than I would usually ride, for the trade off of some stability, to have more agility.

It is an easy bike to get on and ride fast though, and the primary reason for having it was reliability, which it showed recently. I did 2 weeks abroad & over 30,000m of descending & literally didn’t touch it. Came home, hosed it off, lubed the chain & it’s ready for the next one.

The Privateer would be a more budget version, but I ride with a few people who have ridden for them, or still do & no-one is overly complimentary of how they actually ride.

So can i make my bike shorter? A shorter 35mm stem (to replacer the 42.5mm stem on there), more spacers under the stem?

All of that lifts your weight off the front wheel, so you’ll still have to consciously weight the front, possibly more so. You will have a better view and be able to pop the front wheel more easily though.

This is true, though with a higher bar and the bars being further behind the F axle you might find it easier to shift your weight fwd by moving your hips fwd rather than leaning lower and fwd. We do think of front wheel weighting as something that comes from our upper body lean and arms but I think that's because the bike positioning leans us forward anyway. You can only go so high at the front before the wheel just feels too far away in a corner, but I did find a higher bar and weighting from the hips and staying more upright a useful technique to learn.

I’m 5’9” and currently on a bike with a 465 reach, which I’ve always thought is a bit too much. After chatting to Propain, I’ve ordered a Tyee in medium, with a 450 reach and I’m very much looking forward to trying it as it “may” be my sweet spot 🙂

How is that going to work? Short stems don’t make the wheelbase shorter.

You can apply more force to an object that is closer to your center of gravity.
A shorter front centre would be most effective but not many options for that.

Glad to see people mention balanced reach v chainstay length though. Was only a few years ago where reviewers were suggesting longer reach was the answer to getting more front end grip!

There’s a whopping hole in the Raaw Madonna range too – 455 up to 480. Chainstays look fairly balanced against reach. It’s a lot of bike though – imagine more than a V1 Megatower to ride.

its strange how there can be such size jumps. I always think of the Madonna as a big bike, but in reality its the same travel as a megatower. I guess the extra weight would be felt. Its all brain farts at the moment 🙂

The Madonna if you stayed size for size would be a really big bike for you, even with a shorter ETT. As context, I have a V2.2 which is my holiday/big race bike in a L & i’m considerably taller than you

I would go for a medium if i did, as you say, large would be too big for me. Good to get some real world feedback on the Madonna tho.

I’m 5’9” and currently on a bike with a 465 reach, which I’ve always thought is a bit too much. After chatting to Propain, I’ve ordered a Tyee in medium, with a 450 reach and I’m very much looking forward to trying it as it “may” be my sweet spot

very interesting. When is the Propain due? Would love some feedback.

Its incredible that one manufacturer can differ so much from the next!

I went through a lot of good bigger bikes and settled on the optic in size large @6ft back in 2020. I have still tried to find a better bike and actually for Tweed Valley riding I do not think in my case there is a better bike. Yes it has 125mm rear travel but it is a DH shock. It is a really fast bike. Climbs really really well and down the hill there are few bikes that can match it tbh. Super rough tracks or a long day out you maybe will be a bit more battered but for the speed and ride feel I have not found a bike close to it that makes me smile so much. Just a pity no support and not many around. I had my original C2 stolen then picked up a frame only ebay special and built it back up. I have a pretty good bike fleet of newer longer travel bikes and most cases I will pick the Optic for group rides or riding with ebikes.

If you're looking at the Raaw Madonna and money is a consideration, I'd also consider the Bird Aeris 9 (with the Formula Mod coil shock they offer).

It's got a pretty chonky aluminium frame that feels bombproof and really well designed. You can also get an optional linkage for 180mm travel).

And if you had the means to keep something like that AND the Optic, you'd have a nicely complimentary pair of bikes.

@lightfighter762 - i totally agree, the Optic is such a good package. And had i not ridden something shorter, i dont think this conversation would be happening!

@chakaping - good shout, and a much better chance of testing one or at least sitting on one.

In an ideal world i would keep the optic and maybe tailor it more to 'down country' type riding.... AKA longer distance stuff, XC bimbles etc.

I'm 5'11 and went from a V1 Hightower to a Cotic Jeht. Big increase in reach. It felt weird for a few rides but then i settled into it. I was unsure of any real world benefits until i went back on a V1 Hightower and it felt horrid in comparison.

YMMV

@chakaping – good shout, and a much better chance of testing one or at least sitting on one.

Yeah I think they have demo bikes in Swinley, Hamsterley & the Highlands?

Or drop me a line if you're in NW England.

But maybe a better option right now is the Nukeproof Mega frame with EXT shock that CRC are selling for £1,900. Unbelievably they are still showing in stock.

@v7fmp the Tyee should arrive in the first two weeks of January, then I need to get it invisiframed and built up. Then it will be getting some vigorous testing 🙂

@v7fmp, the Propain Tyee finally arrived and it’s now built up and hitting the trails. Despite my concerns that the medium and 450 reach would be a bit too short, it turns out that the sizing couldn’t feel more perfect. Bike design obviously matters, but even with heavy duty tyres and inserts, it’s a seriously poppy and manoeuvrable bike in this size for me (176cm / 5’9”). Still stable too. Defies logic a bit. I’m running a 48mm stem and 38mm rise bars, neither of which I plan to change in the immediate future.

The formula MOD coil is an awesome bit of kit too, turns 8ft plus drops into silky smooth landings 🙂 I should probably stick its own thread up!

i just replied to your NBD thread.

Interesting that you find it a really good fit.

I have sat on a few bikes recently, which i know isnt an exact science, but the difference in reach feels quite substantial.

Had a car park bounce on a mates Vitus Sommet, which in a medium has a 445mm reach i think.... the handle bars felt on my knees when standing up!?!

See i find that weird... mine is about 449mm reach and i'm 6'0 and absolutely love it... My Trek was 475mm and again i wasn't unhappy with it... but the Slayer feels a bit more 'right'
My lads P2 PRivateer 141 also, feels spot on for me. Although i don't get to use it lol

I find handlebar width significantly affects how short a given bike feels.

ie wide bars can make a bike with a shorter reach feel fine.

Yeah i think bars are a massively interesting one. I kinda ballsed up slightly recently and trimmed a set too much, with the DMR Deathgrips adding 5-8mm at the end they're coming in about 775mm... I went back to a set that came as standard on the Slayer yesterday which are closer to 800mm all in and feel a lot nicer.

It definitely doesn’t feel short and there is loads of room on the bike to move around. My old BBB was about the same reach and that felt much shorter. Putting it next to my friends Santa Cruz of yesteryear in XL, it’s about the same as that length wise… Propain have a UK demo centre now and you’re always welcome to try mine if you are ever around here. 🙂

Folk IMO focus too much on height rather than leg length vs upper body.

I'm long legged for my height and consequently have the saddle very high which means that I've usually plenty of 'reach' AKA top-tube.

In the past it was easy, just get an XL for the length of the seat tube & stack - and suffer with bars way below my saddle.

I rode a LLS Cotic and not only was it the first bike I felt was in my 'size' but I actually bought a large (after back-to-back testing an L vs XL - thanks Sam). I run a long dropper, plenty of stack (50mm spacers and 40mm risers) and the saddle well forward. It pedals well plus plenty of room for descending means it's perfect for the Scottish off-piste where it spends most of its time.

I recently bought an eBike too, ended up with a Specialized in S4 - not the largest size but set up just as per my Cotic. And I had an extensive demo (actually hired it) on my local trails (Golfie) so could play around with it.

Lesson? These things aren't cheap, so worth spending a bit of time/cash to get the right one - and then once you've got it, play with it.

“Folk IMO focus too much on height rather than leg length vs upper body.”

This is so true!

However, what you’ve said is really about seated position - effective top tube length at your actual saddle height.

Once the saddle is down and you’re in attack/ready/boss/whatever position then a rider with longer legs / shorter torso ends up with their hips further back because of their longer femurs, and shoulders further back relative to their hips because of their shorter torso. And that means they fit better on a bike with shorter reach.

I had a cotic rocket that I really struggled to weight the front wheel, I tried loads of things to fix it. Dropping bar height was an obvious one to get more weight on the front. I only recently heard the downtime podcast with Si where he mentions bar height and the consequence of bar height being too low... Basically to weight the front wheel with bars being too low, you end up hunching over the wheel and pushing your bum out, which effectively pushes your centre of gravity back.

Bit of a light bulb moment for me, where your hands are isn't directly relevant to weight on the front wheel (unless you are mega aggressive), it's more a combination of front centre length and hip position. Obviously length of arms, torso, pedals type, bar sweep/rise all effect where the hips are.

The other thing is that riser bars are not the same as extra spacers under your stem. Extra spacers increase height but reduce reach, where riser bars increase height with no effect on reach.

Shorter stem along with more swept back bars work well on LLS bikes. Also try adding a spacer or two to help lift the bars, this should help with maneuverability.

I'd also get the shock serviced and maybe get some custom tuning to try to achieve a similar feel to the Hightower.

Another thing I noticed when I first got my Hello Dave was that it required more aggressive steering to get the most from it. More of bossing the bike more than just being a passenger. I noticed the same thing when I went from 26" to 29" wheels, probably why it can be hard going back once you're used to it, also probably a reason why I just bought a angleset set headset for my xc bike.