Little Horst link chainstay bearings, why not bushings?

I'm going to say that dirt ingress can lead to premature wear of the bushing housing/bore? Just my guess as i have a couple of frames that have Igus bushings in the linkage and you have to stay on top of them here in the uk.

I will say also that I've got a Spesh stumpy '19 and the horst link bearings were in great condition when i pulled them out after about three years of use. I was really impressed and also annoyed at the same time 🤣

I've got a Canyon Neuron with bearings there and they've lasted perfectly after 2 years (1000 miles) of abuse. My Cotic Rocket has bushings in the same place (different suspension design but moves that bit just as little) and it took them around 1400 miles to develop play. Doesn't seem to make a difference which one is used, good sealing is more important.

Didn't Turner use bushings there?

I have never understood why grease nipples are not fitted to full sus bikes - bushings or bearings

Some do have grease nipples. My Turner did.

My old HL turner 6 pack had the most durable linkage of any bike I've ever had.

Bushings at every pivot and a grease nipple at every bushing.

I'd love someone to remake that 6 pack with modern standards and geometry.

I found them to be more durable in UK conditions and much smoother in use than deep groove cartridge. You could feel the extra breakaway force on the frame in the workstand but once the linkage was moving, there was very little in it.

However, I believe they were problematic when transferred across to the DW design. Too much leverage perhaps.

Given that every pivot used 2 top hat bushings in a clevis formation, I don't think you'd have much luck trying to convert an existing design.

Ibis still use a mix and match approach to pivot points considering what is the best option at each location.

I had plastic igus bushings on a Scott e-spark swing arm, £40 a set (a few years ago) fairly easy to do.

Blind back to backs on levo, special tools required and a bit more stressful (more so first time)

I’d stick with the bearings,much much, much longer life, many, many more suppliers and MUCH easier to buy (even when Scott bike was current bushings were not common) and if you forget to do them I suspect the consequences are much more obvious and much cheaper.

For me I had to do the Scott bushings about every 9 months on the levo I did them after 3 years, they were still ok one bearing was just a tiny bit rough and as stuff was apart I did them.

Edit just checked, now I don’t need them, bloody typical, they’ve come down in price and are easier to find but my orange 5 is neatly 20 years old and I can still get bearings, a lot less convinced about bike specific bushes,

Why don’t manufacturers use bushings in this location

Because standard sized bearing will likely be available years after the bike's been sold, the technology is known and users often have a price selection of bearings to upgrade for (perhaps) better sealing or better materials, they press in and out relatively straightforwardly at home or the shop and supply is mostly pretty local and often pretty cheap.

my orange 5 is neatly 20 years old and I can still get bearings, a lot less convinced about bike specific bushes

I had to junk a Cube frame as the bushings had disintegrated, I couldn't buy them and even Cube Germany couldn't tell me what the specs were to get them made...

Cotic use igus bushings on the seatstay pivot. With my specialized cambers I found they were the longer lasting bearings but remember they were a pain to remove when it came to it. The concentric axle pivot on my orbea is much easier to work on and just has one larger bearing each side.

Very good points.

I also found this article. It seems to be advertorial but the comments are great, worth reading the ones by user hampsteadbandit especially. Bushings more sensitive to manufacturing tolerances and alignment, degraded bushings wear out their sockets and axles.

My old Lapierre Spicy used to have bushes at the rear end. It chewed them up every few months. I like bearings.

Because standard sized bearing will likely be available years after the bike’s been sold

Then use standard size bushings rather than anything esoteric (see also shock eyelets).

I remember reading a mag’ article about this some years ago (possibly dirt mag). I think it was an interview with Dave Turner & Kalle Nicolai, I think or part of a multiple manufacturer/industry person opinion article; from memory Turner & Nicolai both talked about the bushing being the “engineering solution” for the exact reason given above i.e. the minimal rotation etc. & that the use of bushes at certain points increases longevity. I’m fairly certain they were expressing a little frustration that certain manufacturers & media, mags etc. we’re brainwashing consumers into believing bearings were the best, with the result being that they were constantly fielding questions & arguments by people saying they’ll never buy their frame until they use bearings..!

I’ve had numerous Nicolai & a Turner & all of the bushing lasted well beyond my ownership of the frames.

I am not generally a fan of bushings on bikes, seen too many frames written off by lack of maintenance, and also proprietary bushings that are discontinued. I have turned the odd bush for a couple of good customers, but its really not cost effective to do a whole frame on a regular service. You can sometimes bond in bushes, or turn oversize ones to save a frame. Pivot hardware is often specific to the frame rather than generic, remaking a pivot bolt in steel or stainless does increase its wear resistance compared to alloy.

I have never understood why grease nipples are not fitted to full sus bikes – bushings or bearings

Cost/design/fashion/weight? Santa Cruz do have grease nipples on their lower links, customers who regularly grease them can get decent bearing life, whereas the upper link are the standard setup and normally fail due to water ingress/corrosion. As 1 grease nipple is between 2 bearings, normally one clogs up, and the grease follows the path of least resistance, only one bearing is re greased and the other side fails

I have had loads of people who never even knew their Santa Cruz had a grease nipple, and most did not then grease it between services even when they knew.

Modern cars dont generally have grease nipples on bjs etc either, just sealed for life.

After replacing my last ones I cleaned them, added a few drops of oil, force turned them using part of a bearing puller (didn't take much), added grease, and they felt almost good as new. I think I'll do this with the current ones in-place, and all the other pivots too.

I did notice on my bike the bolt they rotate on has no wear marks on the paint, whereas all the other pivots do. In fact it might even be plastic coated. So I wonder if it's just not gripping the bearing and so the bearing isn't getting any exercise.

Miniature bearings B2B in my Cube Stereo similar to skateboard wheels! Cheap tool off ebay, nice and tightened up properly, boshed the little blighters out with a hammer and chisel no bother. I had repacked them after 3 years use and got another year out of them, so all in all not the end of the world. The drive side main pivot bearing was the first to chuck it's hand in after about a year and half!

You would think bushings would be a better solution but a fair few of the bikes that have had them in past have had serious problems in reality.

My old Stumpy FSR had the little piiishy under-sized PITA horst link bearings ( at each side pressed into a blind holes).

Forever the bain of my life with that bike.

NEVER again.

I had lots of Nicolais. Over the years they had steel axles with needle bearings, bushings and then igus bushings on aluminium axles. Now the main pivots run on fairly large sealed bearings.

Issues for me were the failure modes when , inevitably, stuff gets left too long without servicing.

Roller bearings should have been great but they would sieze onto the axle with the risk that the bearing then wore the seat. The bushings would wear through the coating on the axle and then quickly wear it away (a custom machined part so expensive).

Sealed bearings seem to have the advantage of being off the shelf parts, and not damaging the frame or other parts when they wear out or seize.

The exception probably was the Horst links. Bushing seemed to last a long while there and not sure I ever needed to replace any (whilst I’d done quite a few main pivots and shock levers).

(But Nicolai’s bushings were machined in house (For a time from an igus part) so you couldn’t get them anywhere else)

Can't remember for sure but I think the cotic ones use shock bushings so no issues with availability. The old Hemlock had a pair of teeny tiny bearings on each side there which not only worse out about 3 times faster than the other bearings, they were also a pain to remove as they were blind (and smol, not an ideal combo).

My mate had a Rocky Mountain that had bushings in a bunch of places that you'd expect bearings but also had them running not on replacable axles or seats, but just right on the suspension linkage and whatnot so if you weren't constantly maintaining the things- like, after every race weekend- they'd wear the actual bike out, and Rocky of course said it's not a warranty job it's wear and tear so would only sell you a replacement frame part for hundreds of quid. But nowhere did they ever say "yeah you have to dismantle the suspension every couple of weeks" because of course you'd not buy the bloody bike if you knew that. I suspect bad experiences like this have a bit of an impact on acceptance, even if they're not really fair or representative.

AFAIK Nicolai and thus Geometron Bikes use IGUS bushings in the Horst link. Seems like a good idea to be.
Be nice to have grease injection. I know that are impregnated but injecting would help flush out the crap that gets in there.

I think a problem with bikes is that everything is built/specified with low weight in mind. So flex in the surrounding hardware leads to water ingress and so on, regardless of the bearing type.

My old Stumpy FSR had the little piiishy under-sized PITA horst link bearings ( at each side pressed into a blind holes).

Forever the bain of my life with that bike.

NEVER again.

Oh yes, I forgot this. They are so difficult to remove. PITA.

Again with bearings - why do we not see more designs aimed at ease of replacement? Collets, push through etc would all just *work* better.

And I do think that bushings should be better...

In my experience the bearings nearest the rear axle are usually in the best condition of all. Maybe because its possible to have 2 sets per side (on the frames I have had) and consequently stiffer? I am now the proud owner of a Last Cinto with flex stays and this is definitely a better solution. Ought to be cheaper to manufacture too if not to design.

Then use standard size bushings rather than anything esoteric (see also shock eyelets).

You know that bike manufacturers have a real problem with consistency and tolerances. and standards. I think my Enduro is the very first bike I've ever owned that uses just one size in the frame, I can't imagine how you'd ever get the bike to use one bushing size. Bushings can also wear out, misalign and that would be compounded by tolerance of bushing manufacture, especially off the shelf ones.

This is the same as the press fit BB issue. Press fit is by far and away the "better engineering solution" but it's been roundly rejected by consumers because bike manufacturers can't get good enough QI to take advantage of it. Bushings are probably better in some places, whether consumers would accept their use is another thing all together

AFAIK Nicolai and thus Geometron Bikes use IGUS bushings in the Horst link.

The MK1 G16 used IGUS bushes that were also adjustable.
Everything else since now uses bearings with extra sealing o rings on the retaining caps.
I've had both setups. Neither caused any problems but the IGUS on my first G16 did need adjusting from time to time.
I have a G13 that's almost five years old and still on the original bearings there.

My old Stumpy FSR had the little piiishy under-sized PITA horst link bearings ( at each side pressed into a blind holes).

I see here they are 6800 (10x19x5mm, part 1b). Same as in Bird bikes, same back to back blind arrangement too although they do have covers. RAAW use a single 6902 (15x28x7) on each chainstay.