[Closed] Lights too bright

[img] https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQEhKj2kgYQv_vJhPA0dHg8raU-t_eyW0OjyxZMqUgGroz6Gk1y [/img]

Never mind. Hopefully he did on the way home. 😕

He probably had a point. Our lights are too bright. We've gone to the extreme where our eyes are now so dependant that they fail to adjust to the dark. I ride no faster now, with my 5000000000000 lumen Solarstorm than i did with my old Lumi 20 + 50w halogen. It starts to take the fun out of it. Once you have a group all running silly bright, even the sun is out done.

Anyway it's been done to death that argument, i'm going back to old school 2.5w filament bulb..

Sounds like you lights might have been too bright. 🙂 Even on low most MTB off road lights are way too bright for road use as they are pretty focussed. I point mine at the ground so as not to dazzle other road users. Treat them like a car main beam and dip them when there is on-coming traffic.

You are aware they blind oncoming traffic are you? We always dip ours on the road between woods and trails.

I often got cars flashing their lights at me when I started out with a big proper headlight, I dim it now and put my hand over it. Op have you considered that your lights were too bright or was that guy just moaning for no reason. & what did it matter if

he was using a bike to get from a to b rather than a mad keen idiot like us/members of this forum.

A few years ago I would have said that people were whinging unecessarily about this, but it has to be said, it is getting a real problem these days. Lights are now stupidly dazzling and an awful lot of people seem to be blissfully unaware of the problems they are causing.

What they said, lights have gotten silly bright over the last 5 years, heck even the aforementioned 20+50 halogen is brighter than a motorbikes main beam (or a single car headlight) and far more concentrated!

Helmet lights dipped to their lowest or off, and bar lights pointing right down at the front wheel.

You'd get annoyed if car drivers lefr their main beams on 'so you could see them', a car's main beam is about 1000lumen and very spread out, how do you think other road users feel about that much light focused dead ahead?

should have put your light in strobe mode on max and chased him down to call him a turd! that way you would have won!

Too bright? Or just pointing too high?

We got stopped last year on a short road section by the police and asked to turn our lights down/point them down 😳

Couldn't be arsed to comment back...

What a charmer you are. You dazzle the hell out of someone because clearly your lights were apparently in his face then sneer at him because he was ' using a bike to get from a to b rather than a mad keen idiot like us' . Nice.

The anti-cycling, cycling forum strikes again. 😉

Your lights are obviously too bright. I'd have given you a mouthful too.

Mad Pierre - Member

He ... had ... no helmet

what has this got to do with anything? you tit.

turn your lights down when you're pointing them at people, you tit. It'll save your battery a bit, you might see some starts, and it's a nice thing to do - so you should do it.

HMMMM... is the clarion call you though it would be OP?

If I'm in traffic or near people I just clip this bit of waste pipe onto my light...

[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

Works well same brightness on the ground and avoids blinding people/cars.

[img] [/img]

Here's a scenario which although unlikely wouldn't be outside the realms of possibility.
You dazzle the cyclist,20 seconds later you dazzle a motorist behind him,10 seconds later the motorist has hit the cyclist cos he had his vision impaired.

to be fair to mad pierre - he said he didn't see him until he was on top of them - so maybe their lights were not that bright or dazzling?

any who - the moral of this story is... there is always someone who feels they have more morals than you and that gives them the right to criticise you

why do you think the German Road lights have very defined beam shapes. You don't need 1000+lumen lights, 2.5w halogens aren't much fun though. What you need is well designed light, and torches which is what most seem to use certainly aren't it.

Basic problem is most lights are actually crap. Lots of power and no thought about how to use it! Need the designers to go back to the drawing board and actually design bike lights.

@bellefield, what they are actually saying is we have hugely powerful lights that don't actaully use the light in a productive way!

Almost an Anti-lighthouse....

I like Mukes solution.

And yes. Lights are too bright. At the end of the month I am going to spend my evenings cycling home on the shared use, traffic free path with people who have a WWII spotlight attached to their bars. It's not necessary.

Basic problem is most lights are actually crap. Lots of power and no thought about how to use it! Need the designers to go back to the drawing board and actually design bike lights.

In fairness, for off road you do want a huge spread of light like a car's main beam and that's what most lights are marketed at. It's the dipped beams that are focused/reflected at the ground/side of the road. Most roadies seem to use the more common 200lumen lights from the mainstream brands (lezyne, catyer etc) rather than the Chinese 5000lumen searchlights.

so if the solarstorms are switched to medium is that ok for road use (not too dazzling) or is low best for road use... or none of the above?

Just asking as I've for the x2 on order and was thinking of keeping it on medium or low on the roads for this self same reason.

Basic problem is most lights are actually crap.

... for road use. But I agree with what you're saying. The only people paying any attention to beam patterns for road use seem to be those building to the German regs, which are boringly restrictive in other respects.

Muke - I'm a bit concerned you've gone too far the other way. Will oncoming traffic see you at all?

Yes lights are too bright for the road. I either stick my hand over the light or point it at the ground.
However I did have a cyclist moan that my lights were too bright as I over took him. Still can't figure that out.

so if the solarstorms are switched to medium is that ok for road use (not too dazzling) or is low best for road use... or none of the above?

IMO dipping the angle is probably more important.

BTW - I've already decided to keep a bail out torch on my bars in case the x2 dies on me, and this was also going to be my road option if the x2's were too bright.

In fairness, for off road you do want a huge spread of light like a car's main beam

To a point, you also need a decent throw, which a lot of lights lack, and an even throw, which even more lights lack. The ideal is not to have hot spots/halos and other artifacts. Just a nice even pool of light in which to ride.

Last few years there has been a pointless Lumen war going on which has just seen bigger number being better with little thought to what is being done with all the light.

so if the solarstorms are switched to medium is that ok for road use (not too dazzling) or is low best for road use... or none of the above?

If you point them down, and it needs to be down quite a lot

Agreed - and that's why they'll never be ideal for road riding. You end up with a hot spot in front of your wheel, which your eyes adjust to, meaning you can't see the less-well illuminated road a bit further away. I used to use some relatively low-power LEDs, and even dipped to the point of providing pretty poor road illumination, they were still clearly annoying to pedestrians and probably cars too.

If you look at dipped car headlights, or German bike lights, not only do they have a very sharp cut-off, but the brightest part of the beam is immediately below the cut-off, which means that the brightest part of the beam goes furthest down the road, giving you even illumination of a large area.

Liking my [url= http://www.crgmoto.co.uk/new-gloworm-x2-led-light-system---version-3---1500-lumens-2182-p.asp ]Gloworm X2[/url] for this.

It is stupid bright on the higher settings - but in "Commute" mode it has a configurable High and Low setting, which you can switch between by clicking the remote button.

I've got the Low set to a couple of clicks from bottom (~450 lumen) and the light angled down - so I can click down to Low when there are oncoming trail users (unlit shared-use path) then click it back to High (1000 lumen) so I can spot the ninjas walking their black Labradors.

Mind you 450lm still seems quite dazzling though, so I might experiment with going lower still (lowest available is 150lm).

I think it is a general issue with LED lights - they have a very bright sparkling centre to the beam.

The fella probably had a point OP, do you need to be booting 3000Lm out to see an A road?

"Hugely powerful" or not most lights tend to have a lower setting and can be angled down, I see various plumbs with full power lights or an XML on strobe set level (so about on driver's eyeline) and helmet lights, peering into every car with their death ray, there's more and more of this ****tery about this time of year...

If I'm on the road I make sure my single XML on the the bar is on its lowest setting, angled down so the hot spot is about 1~1.5m ahead of the front wheel and I certainly don't have my helmet light on, because as soon as you glance at an oncoming car with one you'll blind the driver... If you must have a while flashing LED, get a Nog or one of those lower power strap on jobs they are visible without being blinding...

You don't need all that much forwards lighting on the road IMO with or without street lighting...

250~300Lm, angled correctly is plenty to see potholes and markings TBH.

Steady Red LED and a flasher on the back as a minimum IMO, Again visibility is the goal not retinal destruction...

Its all about lighting that is appropriate and proportionate to the environment you are riding in, chopping through the woods avoiding trees, roots and rocks, fine crank it up to 11, once you hit a public highway you are automatically an "Ambassador for cycling" the rest of us would hope you would act accordingly, blinding other road users is another thing for the DM lot to add to their list of gripes, lets not hand it to them on a plate...

I think it is a general issue with LED lights - they have a very bright sparkling centre to the beam.

Which can be overcome as per the German road legal lights

Note how sharp the cutoffs are
[img] [/img]

Not perfect, but you can see what the designers are trying to do,.

I go for the turn down light and dip it. Which is bloody irritating since you end up constantly trying to re-adjust your light angle.

Having a backup road light is a good idea, especially as it means it means you can use all the juice on the offroad lights without worrying about the ride home. The downside being another bit of bar space used up and another set of batteries to worry about.

I have poor night vision. 2000 lumen has transformed my night riding into day riding; not going back to mincing by candlelight.

Full output is only used on descents.

mrmo: the beam is actually quite nice on the Gloworm X2.

Here's the beam pattern from the [url= http://reviews.mtbr.com/2013-bike-lights-shootout-backyard-beam-photos ]2013 MTBR light shootout[/url]:

[img] [/img]

But I think the issue is more that when you are facing an LED light the actual bulb area seems very twinkly, bright and dazzling - much more so than an old halide bulb putting out the same amount of light. The fact that the light that LEDs produce is so white probably doesn't help either.

There was someone on here using part of an old milk bottle as a diffuser for road use on his led light. Looked like a good idea.

Grahams, problem with that light is the light above the horizon. Off road, that light is good, on road, with traffic coming towards you it is bad. Just a question of how you control that light.

high power offroad lights on commuter bikes IMO are beginning to become actively dangerous, especially with the occasional comment such as "shine my headtorch into his eyes so he knows I'm there"

Just a question of how you control that light.

Yeah that's it set level for direct comparison with the other lights in the test:
http://reviews.mtbr.com/2013-bike-lights-shootout-backyard-beam-photos

In actual use I run it pointing down just ahead of my front wheel. It is mounted level with the stem, so fairly low to start with compared to bar or helmet lights.

BadlyWiredDog - Member

What a charmer you are. You dazzle the hell out of someone because clearly your lights were apparently in his face then sneer at him because he was ' using a bike to get from a to b rather than a mad keen idiot like us' . Nice.

The anti-cycling, cycling forum strikes again.

I didn't dazzle him on purpose and he was quite sweary, offensive in his comments (the mods have removed some of that) I wasn't sneering at him at all. I was more sneering at us! I couldn't be arsed... well because I couldn't - it would have involved stopping or turning round for both parties and all this happened in a second.

ahwiles - Member

Mad Pierre - Member

He ... had ... no helmet

what has this got to do with anything? you tit.

turn your lights down when you're pointing them at people, you tit. It'll save your battery a bit, you might see some starts, and it's a nice thing to do - so you should do it.

I was actually trying to point out he was a "normal" person rather than the type (of tit it would seem) that hangs out here. On a seperate note there is no need for to be so insulting. I don't think you'd be so impolite if we were discussing this man to man?

Back to the real discussion:

I didn't know I was pointing my lights at him until he shouted - he was that hard to see in the dark even with our portable suns!

The problem is - it's not easy to dip or dim any of the lights we have. They cycle through modes including blinding strobe mode and the only way to dip is to physically move the light - not exactly practical for two lights in two places when you're popping on and off the tarmac for a short distance here and there.

I reckon bike lights need a re-think now they are so bright? We need a quick dip - so you can operate in a split second like you can in your car.

@ mrmo,the pic you posted of the German beam shot,any idea what it is please? Got a link ?

Ta

Mad Pierre - Member

I don't think you'd be so impolite if we were discussing this man to man?

i'd be exactly as insulting, but you'd be won over by my smile, charm, and charisma.

i hoped i'd chosen a word that would be accepted as [i]playful[/i] - perhaps 'doofus' might have been a better choice?

please accept my sincere apologies if any offense remains.

I reckon bike lights need a re-think now they are so bright? We need a quick dip - so you can operate in a split second like you can in your car.

Which if i have remembered the bumf for the Hope Vision R8 is exactly what they have tried to do....

but obviously they are over priced and the chinese torches work as well.... [/sarcasm]

In actual use I run it pointing down just ahead of my front wheel.

So you end up with a hot spot just in front of your wheel, less illumination further down the road. Very different from the beam mrmo posted which gives very even illumination a long way into the distance, and virtually nothing going above the horizon.

As mrmo says, that beam is fine for off-road, but far from ideal for on-road. It's not just a question of where you point it, but of the beam pattern.

We need a quick dip - so you can operate in a split second like you can in your car.

That's why I mentioned the Gloworm X2, it does this at the press of a remote button.

BUT.. it's not really the same as dipped headlights on a car as the beam angle stays exactly the same, just the power output drops.

What we really need is a proper dipped light like this:

[img] [/img]

But that looks a bit complicated and breakable. Maybe just a shroud like the one Muke showed, but hinged somehow so it could quickly be flipped into place?

So you end up with a hot spot just in front of your wheel, less illumination further down the road.

I should try and get a picture of it but even with it pointed down I still get a pretty good distance throw. Enough to light up road signs at a couple of hundred metres (ie like a car headlight does).

I have it set with one spot and one flood at the mo. I've got an additional spot optic so I could potentially swap that in for a sharper drop off.

As mrmo says, that beam is fine for off-road, but far from ideal for on-road. It's not just a question of where you point it, but of the beam pattern.

The trouble is that (like many folk) my commute is partly on-road but mostly off-road along completely unlit paths. So I need a light that copes with both.

You don't need the big bright light when on the road though. I have a nite rider commuter type light on my bars and the big chinese lumen torch on my head. I know a lot of people like big lights on both but for me I can go fast enough on the offroad forest downhill bits with just the light on my head. When I'm on the road I tend to just have the small bar light on because you don't need much light to see the tarmac and the hedges.

My answer was two lights. A proper road light with a sharp cut-off built to German regs, and a normal MTB light with a remote switch to toggle between 1600 lumens and almost-off.

It'd be nice of someone could build something like that into single unit, but it's not easy, as getting a decent road beam typically takes a fairly large and very carefully designed reflector.

I`ve moaned at people off road before, on a fire road blinding the hell out of anyone (me) coming the other way.

the new breed of led lights are not really suitable for public areas i recon.

its inconsiderate of you to not dim/dip your lights and you deserved to get told off.

However I did have a cyclist moan that my lights were too bright as I over took him. Still can't figure that out.

The problem is - it's not easy to dip or dim any of the lights we have.

Then don't use them on the road. You were in the wrong.

I draw so much satisfaction from being intelligent; you know….looking past the immediate chaos to the calm waters beyond. You see, you’ve all rushed out and purchased those horrible ‘binary’ lights from ‘Jonny Foreigner’ when you should have modified your old set - remote switch ‘Sugru’ moulded to ‘fit-like-a-glove’ onto the STI bracket thus alleviating the need to remove ones hand(s) to change settings (I know, you’re jealous, but it’s ok, I don’t think any less of you). Programmable driver (7) levels, no need for plastic pipe ‘faffery’, stopping to adjust/dip/cover...etc etc.
God I’m good.

P.S. Thanks Troutie, and cohort for being such‘illuminating’ inspirations.

P.P.S. Anyone up for a night ride?

Um, let me see. Shall I start out on 500, then ‘tease’ it up to 2k for the DH section? Or, take it easy and enjoy the proprioceptive benefits on, say, 1000…no wait, 1500. Choices, choices………..

Come on, I bet I've cheered you all up?

I draw so much satisfaction from being intelligent; you know….looking past the immediate chaos to the calm waters beyond. You see, you’ve all rushed out and purchased those horrible ‘binary’ lights from ‘Jonny Foreigner’ when you should have modified your old set - remote switch ‘Sugru’ moulded to ‘fit-like-a-glove’ onto the STI bracket thus alleviating the need to remove ones hand(s) to change settings (I know, you’re jealous, but it’s ok, I don’t think any less of you). Programmable driver (7) levels, no need for plastic pipe ‘faffery’, stopping to adjust/dip/cover...etc etc.
God I’m good.

P.S. Thanks Troutie, and cohort for being such‘illuminating’ inspirations.

P.P.S. Anyone up for a night ride?

Um, let me see. Shall I start out on 500, then ‘tease’ it up to 2k for the DH section? Or, take it easy and enjoy the proprioceptive benefits on, say, 1000…no wait, 1500. Choices, choices………..

Come on, I bet I've cheered you all up?

Programmable driver (7) levels, no need for plastic pipe ‘faffery’, stopping to adjust/dip/cover...etc etc.
God I’m good.

But that has exactly the same issues as mentioned above: it's not a real "dip" just a dimming of the power. So it is still dazzling.

(By the way, the Gloworm X2 driver has [b]10[/b] selectable levels: 10% giving 48hrs of 150 lumen, up to 100% giving 2.5hrs of 1500 lumen. God they're good 😛 )

Oh poo 😉

just to cheer you all up:

Last winter I was riding back to the car along a footpath at the edge of a road, helmet light on.

As a car came along the other way, I tipped my head down and to the side to avoid blinding the driver

... and rode into a telegraph pole 😳

Your remote switch Sugrued onto the STI bracket sounds interesting though. Any pics?

(The lead for the remote on the Gloworm isn't quite long enough to position it right up on the lever so instead mine is on the flats, next to my bell. Be nice if someone did a wireless Bluetooth Smart switch so you could position it anywhere).

I just just rotate the light slightly on the bar.
Didn't seem that much of a problem.

@alex, it reduces the problem, but it doesn't solve it. And if you point it far enough down to eliminate the glare for on coming traffic you won't be able to see very far. ( which you can counter by using a more powerful light....)

Real solution for road riding is properly designed lights not torches.

If you scroll down to the bottom and use the light comparator if gives an idea of the difference between a torch/mtb off road light and a road light.

[url= http://road.cc/content/news/69237-big-roadcc-lights-test-2012 ]http://road.cc/content/news/69237-big-roadcc-lights-test-2012[/url]

The Exposure Strada has been designed for roadies. It's 'only' 800 lumens, anyone know if the beam is more road friendly?

ransos - Member

The problem is - it's not easy to dip or dim any of the lights we have.

Then don't use them on the road. You were in the wrong.

If you'd like to come and build me a few 20 mile completely off road loops or sort out the rights of way so that's possible I will gladly stay off the roads.

As I said it's not practical to switch lights for a short bit of road. We need a proper designed light that's good for off-road and on and easily switchable between the two.

devon roadie, have a look at the page i linked to, if the beam pattern is to be believed it does seem to be fairly well controlled.

If you'd like to come and build me a few 20 mile completely off road loops or sort out the rights of way so that's possible I will gladly stay off the roads.

So you can't fit a commuter light on to your bars for riding to and from the trails? What other simple and easily accomplished tasks do you struggle with?

If you'd like to come and build me a few 20 mile completely off road loops or sort out the rights of way so that's possible I will gladly stay off the roads.

As I said it's not practical to switch lights for a short bit of road. We need a proper designed light that's good for off-road and on and easily switchable between the two.

I don't think that's what he was suggesting, he was suggesting you act considerately when you do go on the road. All lights have an off setting for your helmet, and it takes a split second to flick a handlebar mounted light down at the ground. That's all that needs doing.

You're sounding like one of those car drivers that ignore 30 limits as they drive a big powerfull car that won't go that slow (aka: the taxi driver in 4th defence).

The Exposure Strada has been designed for roadies. It's 'only' 800 lumens, anyone know if the beam is more road friendly?

I've not seen any decent beam shots, but as far as I can tell it's just a wider and flatter beam, rather than something with a proper cut-off. Certainly there's no sign of a cut-off in the road.cc beam shots, but it's hard to tell because I think the shot is taken with both beams on.

That road.cc test highlights the problem quite well. Despite being a test by a road website, only 2 or 3 of the lights tested have a road-specific beam (e.g. the B&M lights), and compared to the other lights, they're so dim that you can barely see them. Using most of the lights on that test in the position shown would be pretty antisocial, so the beam shots aren't really very informative. What you really want to see is what the beam looks like on the road once you've pointed it down to the point that it's inoffensive to others.

so for road use are we recommending Philips SafeRide?

I've got a dynamo powered SafeRide on my 'hack' bike and it really is very good.

So who does make bike lights with a road-friendly, dip-type beam? Any recommendations beyond the generic German thing?

[url= http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TrustFire-1000Lm-Zoomable-Z3-CREE-XML-XM-L-T6-LED-Flashlight-Torch-Zoom-IN-OUT-/261010603896 ]This is what you want for the roads.[/url]

That is my every day light. I thought it was rubbish when I first got it, but now its never off the bike.
Its got a wide beam for around town and a strobe if its very busy and some people aren't paying attention (during the day only).
Last night I was on a long dark fast road section after a play in the hills, and I used the zoom to get the perfect shape of light too light up the road in front of me without dazzling oncoming fast moving traffic.
I turned the light and used the zoom so that it was putting out a diamond shape, which gave me enough light at the sides and about 30 foot from the front of my wheel forwards.
I had my off road XM-L flashlight on the other side, but couldn't really use it on the road because I'd have to point it at the front wheel to stop it dazzling drivers.

Philips SafeRide is generally thought to have the best beam, but the battery performance in the 80 is pretty disappointing. Other battery powered options include the Trelock 950, B&M Ixon IQ, and Supernova Airstream.

The German regs not only impose rules on the beam pattern, but also require that the light is dynamo powered, and limit the maximum power, so there a bit of a gap in the market for lights with decent beams and decent batteries.

Thanks, that makes some sense. Looks like a gap in the market to me...

fwiw, I run an old Troutie-made quad spot - quite a focussed beam - with a home made sort of extended eyebrow shade over the top which has the dual merit of keeping stray light out of my eyes if I'm out of the saddle and meaning that I can get away with a relatively shallow dip and reduce glare to oncoming vehicles. It's not perfect, but it works okay.

If I'm on the mountain bike for short sections of road, I'll just angle my off-road light down severely and accept that I can't see as far ahead and slow down accordingly.

Going back to the OP, having had fellow mountain bikers riding towards me down a muddy lane and not doing a thing to dip their lights despite me doing just that, I suspect a lot of riders just aren't aware of how bright their lights actually are face on.

Thinking about this, i guess the solution is to canabalise german legal lights.

Take a B&M lumotec for instance rip out the electronics that make it Dynamo friendly and replace with battery friendly electronics then link to a battery.

As long as the cooling can be dealt with the actual reflector is what your after. I know this is basically what the edelux is but it is also a dyno light.

I suspect a lot of riders just aren't aware of how bright their lights actually are face on.

I think one thing everyone reading this thread should do is prop their bike up against a wall with their light on, walk 20 metres away, turn around and see how dazzled they are.

It's an informative test!

It's an informative test!

still seeing a white spot????

The lights with the LED very near the front of the lens (usually with a lens as opposed to a reflector), are much worse for this.

This is the first one where I [i]really[/i] noticed it. You need to move it 70-degrees before it stops dazzling!
[img] [/img]

I'm guessing the exposure lights might also suffer this, but haven't tested.

I'm still of the opinion that with the normal Bastid/XML lights you can dip the beam enough to prevent dazzling though. I tried it on mine when I first got my cross bike and got used to what the pattern on the floor should look like when it's no longer dazzling. Yes, it's a bit bright near the wheel and it trails off a bit early, but it's still fine for dark lanes.

are there any stick-on reflector type lenses that can deflect light downwards only that can go on the top half of a light?

like this

[img] [/img]

I think one thing everyone reading this thread should do is prop their bike up against a wall with their light on, walk 20 metres away, turn around and see how dazzled they are.

It's an informative test!

We also need to learn the difference between lumen and lux, for it is the lux that is the issue.

We've also moved on from the old days when lights on the road had to meet the british standard and have some illumination to the side too. Even lights like the strada don't seem to feature this any more which is a shame.

and have some illumination to the side too.

That's why I use a Fibre Flare:

[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

Thinking about adding some spoke reflectors too after this pic from trail_rat in the [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/insanely-bright-rear-lights/page/2 ]"insanely bright rear lights" thread[/url]:

[img] [/img]