Just wondering what walkie talkies people use when guiding what sort of range do you get in wooded, hilly areas. We trialed the license free ones but they were useless. So now looking at other ideas
What you need are mobile phones. walkie talkies are pretty rubbish beyond a mile or so, and realistically have to be "in sight" of each other, the licensed ones are really no better than the unlicensed ones, in terms of those obstacles. They may work at greater distances, but put a hill between them, and your still going to get pretty terrible reception
@nickc unfortunately I need signal for the phones to work what I don't have hence looking at walkie talkies
unfortunately I need signal for the phones to work
Yep, seemed like a slightly weird suggestion to me.
There's no decent option for Joe Public that I know of, even our MRT radios with access to the many repeaters in the surrounding hills have areas that they just don't work.
Is this for guide to guide comms on the same group (rear gunner to lead, if they stop for a mechanical/fall for instance) or for guide to home base/van pickup?
I'd have though a mile or 2's range of a decent licenced set would be enough for the former.
@ta11pau1 It's more for group to group coms. We take out about 4 separate groups who ride around in the same area but routes are all a bit different due to skill fitness etc.
It's more for if one group has an incident and needs support they can radio for help from another group. Example in the Surrey Hills would be we have a group on pitch but we need to get into contact with someone on Holmbury etc
I assume you mean for the UK? The alps has a really good system of relays for licensed digital VHF's. However, you will not get a licence unless you are a mountain professional: and for mountain biking I think this would mean being an accompagnateur en montagne/ IML etc with a carte pro or a mountain guide.
Ah sorry...was writing during your last post: Surrey hills. Hence my post is not relevant.
the surrey hills doesn't have mobile coverage?
@jam-bo it does but it was just an example of distance and terrain. Not that their was no signal in that location
Walkie talkies (licence or not) will still only work line-of-sight. So stick some hills / woods in between them and they fail. Wont matter what you spend, the radio waves don't bend round obstacles.
I don't understand why you can use a mobile phone ?
We can't use mobile phones as there is not always signal in the locations we ride.
Line of sight for any kind of hand held unless you have a repeater on a hill top. Satellite phones can be had reasonably cheaply these days (sub £500), no idea on call charges though.
unfortunately I need signal for the phones to work what I don’t have hence looking at walkie talkies
I'll bet you 50p that your phone will get a better signal more quickly than a W-T ever will. Honestly, they're mostly crap. and the ones that aren't still need repeaters to work in hills and woods consistently well enough to rely on.
Look at it this way; unlicensed ones...if you're at one goal and I'm at the other on a pitch, we can have a conversation without having to yell, with licensed ones, if you're at the bottom of the quarry and I'm at the top, we can talk...other than that, don't bother.
My experience of using them in a large quarry is that the handsets can be very variable and one model can be substantially better than another. The problem is that to test you need the units.
We had one model that was substantially better than others and worked pretty much everywhere we needed it.
The other aspect is that you can just send someone to higher ground to try and get comms
Satellite tracking/phones are the way to go. They are 'just' affordable now:
https://www.findmespot.com/en-us/about-spot/company-info
I was about to suggest spot as well but it isn't free and you would probably need a coordinating person to receive messages and pass messages to the other teams.
Can’t you just note where signal is poor and have a solid plan in place for everyone when they find themselves needing help in those areas eg move to nearest good signal area after stabilising casualty etc???
I was expecting you to say you were in the Cairngorms or something. Surrey hills, you can’t be more than a minute or two away from a decent mobile signal at worst.
Maybe try different phone providers to see if they have a better signal where you are operating.
Yea it's pricey, the phone contracts start at $80pm. The 2-way messenger starts at $15pm with 20 custom messages.
Not seen a sat phone used for a while so I may be out of date. It seemed to take quite a while to acquire a signal. We were deep in BC backcountry at the time so this could have been the issue. Quite a bit more remote and mountainous than anywhere in Surrey. We have had some quite good range on a pair of Motorola licence free ones in the Alps. Mind you that was not in wooded terain. More of an issue of other people getting on the same channel.
Surrey hills was just an example of distance heavily wooded area. You can replace surrey hills with. FoD, peaks, wales, southdowns etc
Also while I could move to an area of signal there would be no way of letting the other group know that they need to move to an area with signal to receive my call.
It isn’t for contacting the emergency services. We have other procedures in place for that.
Maybe try different phone providers to see if they have a better signal where you are operating.
Not all phones are made equal. Some have focussed on aesthetics, weight etc and others will have better designed antennae. Some now have the option for dual sim cards - that substantially increases the prospects of having a signal if you pick providers sensibly. I'd say with a good mobile with 2 sims on different networks if one of you can't get signal then you'd be really lucky to get handheld radio comms between you unless you were within yelling distance!
I found a big difference between different walkies. We use these now, Retevis RT81 Walkie Talkie Largo Alcance, IP67, and they work great. We get really good coverage with them and use them for guide to guide and guide to van comms. They are a bit bulky and not cheap but much better than the motorolla waterproof ones we had previously.
Someone suggested having an idea of where mobiles work and don’t and it’s a fantastic suggestion. I think it’s key, knowing where your mobile (and the other guides) is likely to work and not and where to get signal as most often it isn’t far away.
Also worth noting that safety procedures should stand up without walkies, they are a nice to have and smooth things along but, I know from experience, it’s too easy to rely on them and take shortcuts.
Have I understood correctly ... You want something to communicate in situations that are not emergencies with another group of riders but it has to be pretty much guaranteed to work instantaneously in a variety of terrain? I don't think one Comms method will give you that - you need options depending on where you are.
A couple of things I'd be thinking if I was guiding a group.
1) as I assume a paid/commercial/third party guide each group should be self sufficient in terms of safely managing most minor incidents that do not require escalation to emergency services (I appreciate you might need to call the sag wagon for a broken bike but that's a wait by the road job)
2) if you follow principle 1 and the issue doesn't require escalation to the emergency services then you can leave a voicemail. Without serious antenna height the range of a VHF type radio is very limited.
3) if you need the emergency services then you really need a phone signal which means a short ride to find one in most places
The key thing here is I don't get what situations (other than serious injury requiring a 999 call) a properly prepared guide would encounter that REQUIRE an almost instant conversation with another group of riders who might be a mile or two away. Yes it might be desirable but it's not seemingly safety critical if each group has the right gear and preparation.
Firmly in the mobile phone and being well equipped camp here, which no doubt you are.
Peak STW!
OP: I need this, whats a good one?
STW: No, you don't need that, what you actually need is something else you've already tried and said doesn't always work for you.
OP: but that doesnt always work for me so want something else as well.
STW: Nope, you're obvioulsy lying, and we know more about your situation than you do....
🤣
Sometimes the answer you think you want is not actually the best one.
Sometimes the answer you think you want is not actually the best one.
And here is one place where I've had fairly consistent good advice that fits that mantra.
If someone came on here with "what screwdriver for knocking in 6inch nails" you'd expect people to suggest a hammer or screws instead.
There is no doubt that walkies can be really useful and important for a lot of situations. Just you can´t rely on them and procedures should always assume no communication is possible between guides / groups / vans. Having the walkie is really, really useful, especially when phones are carefully packed, charged and not taken out unless you need to call emergency services. I know from experience a lot of situations where walkies help with safety and also help the day just run much, much more smoothly. From talking amongst the team while also talking to emergency services on the phone, to radioing ahead to get cold drinks on the table as you are arriving to the lunch stop!
Have you looked at the Garmin INReach as an option? Would be cheaper than a sat phone. Admittedly text only with the advantages and disadvantages that brings, but: you require a communications method: it's usually: mobile, walkie talkie, sat phone, garmin InReach and seeing as all the other options have been discussed and disadvantages/ advantages with all so far, it would be worth ensuring you have researched all options.
Have I understood correctly … You want something to communicate in situations that are not emergencies with another group of riders but it has to be pretty much guaranteed to work instantaneously in a variety of terrain? I don’t think one Comms method will give you that – you need options depending on where you are.
Yes
A couple of things I’d be thinking if I was guiding a group.
1) as I assume a paid/commercial/third party guide each group should be self sufficient in terms of safely managing most minor incidents that do not require escalation to emergency services (I appreciate you might need to call the sag wagon for a broken bike but that’s a wait by the road job)
No all trained volunteers. We take a group of about 30 kids out with varying levels of abilities. but yes each group is self sufficient. With First aid kit, Bivibags (in lue of Shelters due to covid) etc
2) if you follow principle 1 and the issue doesn’t require escalation to the emergency services then you can leave a voicemail. Without serious antenna height the range of a VHF type radio is very limited.
Thanks that's what I was trying to find out we used license free I am trying to establish if paying the cost of licensed ones is worth the money.
3) if you need the emergency services then you really need a phone signal which means a short ride to find one in most places
Part of the risk assessment is locations where we know we can get signal in the case of emergency.
The key thing here is I don’t get what situations (other than serious injury requiring a 999 call) a properly prepared guide would encounter that REQUIRE an almost instant conversation with another group of riders who might be a mile or two away. Yes it might be desirable but it’s not seemingly safety critical if each group has the right gear and preparation.
No not safety critical but desirable
Example 1. kid crashes is hurt but not enough to need hospital treatment but doesn't want to ride anymore. I have a group of 6 other kids who want to keep riding. If I can get hold of another group I can get two of the DBS certified parents to come and get the child and take him back to the parents while the group continues on their ride.
Example 2. We have a mechanical near the end of the ride we now have a 1.5 mile walk back rather than a 1 mile ride. It means we are going to be late back. There isn't any real issue so I don't want the late back procedures to be engaged but I do want them to know we are going to be late.
Example 3. We have an incident that does need 999. Second ride leader rides off to get signal to phone emergency services. while first ride leader administers first aid. it would be useful for that first ride leader who is with the casualty to communicate with the second who can relay to the emergency services. (to be clear this is a bonus not something that would be relied on)
Firmly in the mobile phone and being well equipped camp here, which no doubt you are.
If phones worked all the time that is what we would use
Sometimes the answer you think you want is not actually the best one.
Happy with any answer the general jist of the thread. Just wanted to make it clear that mobiles don't always work and what alternatives is their. What I am getting is no its not worth purchasing Licensed walkie talkies and stick to what we have got.
Assuming you are working under BC, the following should be helpful:
We do very similar to you, and have many radios being used to control groups of kids out on road runs, whilst we use ours to help with keeping tabs on all the groups we have across a forest. We all use the Mitex General UHF radios - they won't always work, but with enough of you out, you can almost always get a message through.
Thanks all
the sat phones and Garmin's are a bit beyond what we wanted to pay.
we might try a set of Mitex General UHF radios as they aren't to expensive for a set of two to try to see if there is an improvement over license free.
