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They are very popular in China with young Freeriders/DHers. Everything online says how great they are. Massive advertising, word of mouth, and nationalism with most home-grown products. £182 for a set of LH4 right now.
I finally got hold of someone's bike with a front LH model on. The lever was squeezing to the bar slowly like a Shimano with a punctured master cylinder reservoir. I told the kid perhaps it needed a bleed. He said it had been done a couple of days ago and showed me the video from the LBS doing it. I couldn't see any visible oil leaks. He also said it randomly stopped working and the lever easily went to the bar. 10 minutes later he showed me it had started doing it again. Perhaps it needed a rebuild I told him? Contact the seller about warranty. Literally nothing online about any other failing brakes. Either they're 99.99% perfect, or something is going on online.
No company has no manufacturing problems. Riders crash their bikes and damage brakes and I'm not seeing any of the aftermath of any of that either.
in my opinion was a cowardly and pathetic response by people who had not even used them.
Welcome to the internet.
The 'truth' still remains that buying Lewis is offshoring money that could remain in the UK if you buy Hope.
*Spoken as someone who is in UK manufacturing.
The ‘truth’ still remains that buying Lewis is offshoring money that could remain in the UK if you buy Hope.
I was going to make a clever comment about the price difference but the price isn't actually all that much less.
Yup, just buy Hopes.
It’s such a shit name.
Apart from that I can’t see the appeal, even if they were super cheap.
The ‘truth’ still remains that buying Lewis is offshoring money that could remain in the UK if you buy Hope.
Isn't that true of buying anything from abroad that's likely to be better? I can't think of any UK made bike parts that's the best in its category - the reason to buy is always because it's British, not because it's the best.
I'm not saying Lewis are the best (you'll have to do a lot to convince me anything is better than Formulas) but to say Hope, Renthal , Orange, Unite, Superstar, Burgtec or Middleburn are best at what they do isn't true either.
TLDR they directly copied Trickstuff for their early domestic market stuff but have made changes/improvements for the international market stuff.
Sorry I don't have time to watch the video, but does that mean they stole the Trickstuff technical IP for territories where they could get away with it - then made them legally compliant for countries where it could be enforced?
I've just ordered some Saint brakes on discount anyway, probably for less than these.
where did you find discounted saints, @cha****ng? I have a mate looking for exactly that
Gribs
Dale Stone has put out a video on Lewis brakes and it’s an interesting watch if a bit long. TLDR they directly copied Trickstuff for their early domestic market stuff but have made changes/improvements for the international market stuff.
If there was ever a youtuber that needed a TLDR, it's Dale Stone
That came up on my feed, but..... FORTY minutes long?
Try watching it and not just complaning about the length. I watched it, thinking I'll do it in a couple of attempts, but I found it interesting enough to watch in one go (if at 1.5 speed in places).
Apart from that I can’t see the appeal,
Of a company adding competition, & improving on previous designs?
The ‘truth’ still remains that buying Lewis is offshoring money that could remain in the UK if you buy Hope.
So your going on every non hope brake thread and start shouting the same?
Does that mean they stole the Trickstuff technical IP for territories where they could get away with it
Seemingly not at all, they did what all engieering companies do and take the competitions product to pieces, to design an improved brake... same as is done in every industry, everywhere... If the IP was stolen, then Trickstuff (or DT swiss) would be suing them, without a doubt.
I think there interesting, as all competition is good, & the fact there from an established company (if not in brakes), is a major plus to me. They have though made themselves famous by courting controversy with Trickstuff, right from outset. All publicity is good publicity
Not going to dump my Sram Codes just yet
but does that mean they stole the Trickstuff technical IP for territories where they could get away with it
In his video, Stone claims that they're a long standing manufacturer of fishing reels They decided (for some reason) to get into mountain bike brakes. In order to speed up development, they get a bunch of brakes and tear them apart to see what works and what doesn't. They decide that the Trickstuff is the best design. They go ahead and make 300 sets of a direct copy of the Trickstuff Detersseima and send them out to folks to use, abuse report back. In the mean time, they claim to have made a number of improvements to the Trickstuff design to make it better. I think the gist of the video is saying that copying in China doesn't carry the same implications that it does here, and that the brakes while still visually similar to Trickstuff are in fact their own thing.
Yes, I was bored and watched it last night
Thanks, that's impressively transparent and exactly what I'd assumed then.
And yes I was inferring that China has a lax attitude to IP enforcement, by common consensus.
But does that mean they got their influencers to "review" the direct Trickstuff copies, then changed the internals when putting them on sale?
Does that fella like the brakes or not?
where did you find discounted saints, @cha****ng? I have a mate looking for exactly that
Have a look at Biketart and Edinburgh BC.
Seemingly not at all, they did what all engieering companies do and take the competitions product to pieces, to design an improved brake… same as is done in every industry, everywhere… If the IP was stolen, then Trickstuff (or DT swiss) would be suing them, without a doubt.
Kelvin's right. IP in China is a different subject. There's a pride in the ability to copy something well, it's a different way of seeing it. But it's also right that no good engineering company doesn't understand the the detail of the competition before creating a competitor. And when the original product is at such a high price, arguably the door is left wide open for a lower cost version.
z1ppy
Try watching it and not just complaning about the length. I watched it, thinking I’ll do it in a couple of attempts, but I found it interesting enough to watch in one go (if at 1.5 speed in places).
He covers it all in the first fifteen minutes, then literally repeats that first whole fifteen minutes as a "quick summary"
He's an unbelievable waffler, which massively detracts from his content, which is generally very good
I'll pass. Just the approach taken by Lewis brakes doesn't sit well with me. For similar money to Hopes? No-brainer of a choice to me.
jameso
There’s a pride in the ability to copy something well, it’s a different way of seeing it. But it’s also right that no good engineering company doesn’t understand the the detail of the competition before creating a competitor. And when the original product is at such a high price, arguably the door is left wide open for a lower cost version.
This is all fair, but they are absolutely trading on the look of TrickStuff, like copying the body panels of a Ferrari and sticking them on a Toyota - design/appearance is IP as well as the internals and the engineering.
Does that fella like the brakes or not?
Broadly; yes. He says the same sorts of things about them that other testers have said. They're very powerful, the range of adjustment is good they seem well made and robust. He's done a large amount of research on the development of the brakes, and takes what Lewis says about their claims of improvements and that they are substantially [internally at least] different, at face value.
Here's a thought, if a Chinese company who had never made brakes before came along claiming to make some of the best brakes around and was still charging a premium for them (not Trickstuff premium but not cheap), would anyone buy them. Surely it's the fact that they are so similar to TS that people are buying them. If they were a completely new design then would people trust them so readily?
The definitely copied Trickstuff including using some of their branding for the first iteration of their brakes. The current ones are clearly inspired by them but have some changes. There's no suggestions they're doing anything illegal. If you're at all worried then buying Hope is a safe option as they're functionally excellent, have brilliant long lasting support and are made in the UK.
In his video, Stone claims that they’re a long standing manufacturer of fishing reels
Shimano?!?!?
{insert winky face}
Ignore my post now I've read and watch some of that video it is obviously a rip off. When I said ethically I was thinking more from an employee (slave?) Well being/renumeration perspective. Didn't realise IP had been taken so blatantly, nor did I realise they were from China.
I've removed from list of prospective brakes. God modern shopping is a minefield these days!!!
claims that they’re a long standing manufacturer of fishing reels
Shimano?!?!?
Same thought! Copy a business diversification strategy from one company, and product from another.
So where do Clarks CRS fit into all this. They are also very similar
From 'bikeradar'
"The four-piston caliper has more than a passing resemblance to that found on the Hope Tech 4 V4, while the lever takes on a Trickstuff aesthetic."
I just sent some counterfeit guitar strings back to Amazon because they turned out to be Chinese knock-offs of Ernie Ball strings.
There's no way on earth I'd ever knowingly use anything actually important that's a rip off copy done without the knowledge of what went on in development. Especially brakes ! Go check out the Russian Concordski crashing because they'd made it based on pre-design-update drawings stolen from the real Concord makers !
Ethical ? Yes. Abso****inglootly.
design/appearance is IP as well as the internals and the engineering.
I agree, I don't like the extent of similarities. There's an inevitably to it though.
A follow up video by Dale
He liked them, but they require more lever force than he’dike
Interesting to see on his score chart that shimano's M520 scored very highly. Above XT 8120 and tops that chart for value for money.(currently £175/bikes worth at Merlin) -I've a pair of these and find them bloody good.
If you're on a tight budget, these seem a better overall deal than Lewis by about a hundred pounds.
He seems to not be a fan of the lever force required for Sram brakes in general, I know Mavens are supposed to have a stiffer lever but it's not something I've experienced with other Sram models.
When it comes to Shimano, they would make some of the best brakes around if they improved their quality control. I've not had issues with wandering bite point but I've had plenty of micro leaking calipers. I have a pair of the 520's and they're great when they work but I had to send one back and in the back of my mind I'm always expecting them to stop working.
Which isn't good when they should be working to stop!
dc1988
He seems to not be a fan of the lever force required for Sram brakes in general, I know Mavens are supposed to have a stiffer lever but it’s not something I’ve experienced with other Sram models.
Maven are sold has having a super light action, he found the opposite. SRAM recommend their "piston massage" to address this, not sure if Dale missed that step, not seen other reviews complaining
Pinkbike said the Mavens' lever action is a bit stiff too:
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-sram-maven-the-big-brake.html
When it comes to Shimano, they would make some of the best brakes around if they improved their quality control
100%
I still stick with them as a known quantity, and they seem to have improved on the wandering bite point - but if they could just get the oil to stay in the brakes consistently they'd be such an easy choice.
I'm not against these in anyway but for me it would be an easy choice between saving a bit and getting whatever Shimano 4 pots I could get on offer from the MT500 up or spending a bit more and get a set of Hope Tech4 V4s.
How are we still talking about them?
A quick summary:
- They’re brakes that work fine.
- People on social media like the free ones they got.
- They ripped off Trick Stuff and then changed it a bit in typical Chinese style. Which some people don’t care about.
- They’re much cheaper than Trick Stuff.
- They’re a little cheaper than Hope.
- They’re not that much cheaper than Hope.
- They’re more expensive than Shimano, SRAM and Magura.
- They have unknown longevity and support unlike more established brands, nor do we know what their warranty is like.
- They’re Intense DH team are sponsored by them and use them racing, except when they run something else during a race.
but overall they seem to get a lot of shilling from people on the internet who are die-hard fans of something that’s only been out a few months
(Edit - No idea why my txt formatted differently and can’t be bothered to fix it)
– They have unknown longevity and support unlike more established brands, nor do we know what their warranty is like.
Of all the points raised most can be overlooked or justified one way or another except this. Shimano brakes can be a bit shit with leaks and wandering bite point but you get a 2 year warranty (3 with XTR) that is pretty much always honoured. SRAM brakes can be a bit shit (or used to be) with sticking pistons and you get a warranty that's honoured. Hope have had issues with the pistons on the Tech 4 master cylinder and warranty honoured, and all parts available as spares.
Until someone has to go through all that with Lewis, no one knows. And their shills haven't told us.
SRAM brakes can be a bit shit (or used to be) with sticking pistons and you get a warranty that’s honoured.
The best I got out of them was a bleed and a denial that there was anything wrong.
So un-ironically for this thread I bought the metal pistons from China to fix them myself.
Of all the points raised most can be overlooked or justified one way or another except this. Shimano brakes can be a bit shit with leaks and wandering bite point but you get a 2 year warranty (3 with XTR) that is pretty much always honoured. SRAM brakes can be a bit shit (or used to be) with sticking pistons and you get a warranty that’s honoured. Hope have had issues with the pistons on the Tech 4 master cylinder and warranty honoured, and all parts available as spares.
And magura levers crack because they're made from plastic.
So in summary established MTB brands all make crap* brakes, but it's a gamble whether the newcomers are as bad as everything else.
*Hope can maybe have a point back in their favor for seemingly fixing the problem quickly rather than ignoring it and telling everyone there isn't an issue.
I'd just rather support the UK economy and run something I know will be repairable basically forever. In my opinion as a country we buy far too much shite from China that ends up in landfill. Yes I'm aware a lot of branded stuff is made there but if it's branded it'll have dealers and warranties and parts backup. Lewis are not there yet by a long stretch, which is why I choose to put my money into Hope.
Until someone has to go through all that with Lewis, no one knows.
Magura are 5 years too, and European made.
chakapingFull Member
Pinkbike said the Mavens’ lever action is a bit stiff too:https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-sram-maven-the-big-brake.html
/blockquote>
They talk about it here, early brakes with stiff seals, and the "massage" process to set the pistonshttps://nsmb.com/articles/maven-ultimate-brake-update-plus-panzer-insert-update/
So in summary established MTB brands all make crap* brakes
This is one thing I've been saying for years.
This is one thing I’ve been saying for years.
It does surprise me how apparently blasé the bike industry is about this sort of thing. Can you imagine if T6's had a plastic brake pedal that saved a few grammes but cracked regularly, or Octavia's had a known fault where the plastic piston in the master cylinder would just seize leaving you with no brakes suddenly. Or Berlingo calipers leaked just enough fluid to contaminate the pads.
Those weren't maintenance or durability* issues. They were just really poorly designed brakes.
*in a crash surviving sense
Magura are 5 years too, and European made.
I don't really want to rely on a warranty or 1970's nostalgia for DIN and TUV standards when it comes to brakes, I want the lever to remain attached to the bars when I grab it in a panic.
Formula Curas are powerful and completely reliable IME and about £200 a pair on eBay new. I don't really know why I don't see more of them - I've had the same problems as everyone else with Shimano (leaky pistons), Sram (couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding, then just die after 5 years) and Magura (absolutely useless) but my two pairs of Formulas have been faultless, as have those of the other people I know who run them.
They talk about it here, early brakes with stiff seals, and the “massage” process to set the pistons
OMG the comments on that are tragic.
We might be a miserable, argumentative bunch of bike nerds here - but at least we have a sense of humour about it.
And the people who write NSMB really need to get over themselves.
Formula Curas are powerful and completely reliable IME and about £200 a pair on eBay new. I don’t really know why I don’t see more of them – I’ve had the same problems as everyone else with Shimano (leaky pistons), Sram (couldn’t pull the skin off a rice pudding, then just die after 5 years) and Magura (absolutely useless) but my two pairs of Formulas have been faultless, as have those of the other people I know who run them.
2 pots on all my bikes, no issues at all, want a bit more power, fit a bigger rotor. Our riding group has a fair few sets, and no issues, ever.
munrobiker
Formula Curas are powerful and completely reliable IME and about £200 a pair on eBay new. I don’t really know why I don’t see more of them – I’ve had the same problems as everyone else with Shimano (leaky pistons), Sram (couldn’t pull the skin off a rice pudding, then just die after 5 years) and Magura (absolutely useless) but my two pairs of Formulas have been faultless, as have those of the other people I know who run them.
Yeah, I would thoroughly recommend them also, they're brakes that just work, and work really well
Historically formula importer has been poor.
How long ago was that? Pre their switch to Geometron or did it continue?
Current Formula importer (fella who used to work at Geometron IIRC) did a fine job of warranty servicing my Mod coil shock.
Not needed spares for it though, fortunately.
I might try their brakes if I weren't locked in a mildly toxic, co-dependent relationship with Shimano.
Anyhoo, back to the topic of the post, Lewis brakes wasn't it.
I do see that Lewis have another brake set out, and by some crazy coincidence it has ended up looking exactly like Trickstuff's other model, the Piccola
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRD2cNa3A2nkSpyiJ2rSFYBOaef-dgpcXjZrg&s
trail_ratFree Member
Historically formula importer has been poor.
Formula were generally terrible, I swore I'd never use their products again after some early experiences, but they have very much turned me around
I've only needed Formula spares once - I bent a lever in a huge crash. It was about £8 posted from Italy and they had every spare available. And if you're willing to pay way over the odds, the new UK importer now they're not with Windwave seems to be able to supply everything.
A quick summary:
– They’re brakes that work fine.
– People on social media like the free ones they got.
– They ripped off Trick Stuff and then changed it a bit in typical Chinese style. Which some people don’t care about.
– They’re much cheaper than Trick Stuff.
– They’re a little cheaper than Hope.
– They’re not that much cheaper than Hope.
– They’re more expensive than Shimano, SRAM and Magura.
– They have unknown longevity and support unlike more established brands, nor do we know what their warranty is like.
– They’re Intense DH team are sponsored by them and use them racing, except when they run something else during a race.
And the OP was touched here and here by the internet.
Lol... Trickstuff will love that
I do see that Lewis have another brake set out, and by some crazy coincidence it has ended up looking exactly like Trickstuff’s other model, the Piccola
Covered on the original thread months ago. They also offer it with the 4-pot trail caliper.
Hang on...........
Shimano XTR
Formula Cura
It's almost like there's actually very few novel ways of arranging a lever and a piston that don't look like each other.
Except those two levers and pistons aren't the same... and aren't trading off the look and design of the other... at all.
You are SUPPOSED to look at the Lewis... and think... ooo... bargain Trickstuff knockoff. That's their MO. It's blatant and undeniable by anyone without a vested interest.
What Kelvin says. Those levers are nothing like the same.
There's only so many ways you can change the look of a bike brake. There will only be so many ways you can push a fluid down a hose. I'm sure all designers of brake company XX will look at the brakes of YY ZZ & AA to see where they can improve their products, blatant copying the design is poor form.
It's a no from me.
Your ethics and mileage may vary.
Your ethics and [s]mileage[/s] stopping distance may vary.
Ftfy
I have hope tech 3e4s and a set of tech4e4s. The new tech 4s light actioned and like a stick in the spokes.