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I've seen this new brand pop up. CNC brakes from China. The look kind of decent quality. Anyone tried them?
Straight off copies of trickstuff but keenly priced at it appears £350 for f&r
never heard of them; wouldn't even consider them until they've been thoroughly tested by several people who know what they're on about and their reviews are published.
I sceptical but if they are copying trick stuff who make the best brakes going, then these Lewis ones bike be decent.
I have found this YouTube review.
Tempted. Typical recently got 2 sets of tech4 🙄
But if you can get a pair for £280, might be worth snapping up a set if they are as good as the vid says, before the price inevitably climbs.
I saw that video, couldn't decide if it was a review or an infomercial.
I find it irksome that they've straight up copied someone else's work and even more so that they're trying to wash over that fact. "We've taken the best of all brakes and refined it further". 🤔
While I'm confident trickstuff pays it's people a decent wage and has them working in decent conditions, I doubt they've making money hand over fist on their brakes.
I wonder how this compares to Lewis. I also wonder what small part availability is like. That's the reason I don't run Shimano brakes. But even if I did, I know I'd be able to find a compatible lever or caliper at a pinch.
I don’t know what’s more riling, China’s ability to copy and then somehow distribute somebody else’s intellectual property as their own, or the public’s willingness to buy the blatant copy as if that’s in any way all right. Shameful.
Isn't the reason the Trick$tuff brakes are so highly rated their precision machining to the finest mm and their quality control? That won't come cheap and will be difficult to emulate in a Chinese factory. They might look the same, but is the precision there?
These remind me of the pressure washer I used at work years back, a Chinese clone of Honda.
It worked just fine for a while, then conked out. No parts available, and Honda ones weren't interchangeable as it's not a perfect clone.
Scrap within 18 months. With a little care, those Honda engines run for decades.
Ethically, those brakes are such a ripoff I'd rather not support them, especially when Hope T4 are so good.
Amazing that the reach and bite point can apparently be adjusted separately with just one adjuster. Apparently much easier to bleed than Trickstuff too, despite being the same.
Plus a patented design? I’m sure it is, just not by them.
Remember kids creativity is great, but plagiarism is quicker and easier.
Yeah, nah.
Counterfeit brakes. 😳
When you can buy the shimano brakes world cup downhill riders use for the same money I think I'll probably leave it.
The LH4 can be (or could be) had from one UK shop at £270 for the set. I've had a go of them on a bike and they feel decent, and use Hope E4 pads. However, no idea on spares availability for other parts.
They certainly felt better than the Code R that came on the Kenevo SL but then they are shit.
I'll be getting V4s for the HB916, and then putting my E4s on the KSL.
With the price you can get a decent set of brakes for at the min is it worth it? Buy a set of Hopes for another £100 and you'll be able to get spares for the next 20 years, god knows if you'll find anything for these in a year.
I have a set on a bike right now. Ive not had them long enough to assert any bold claims they are brilliant, but I can tell you they are certainly not bad brakes. They have plenty of power, good feel and the adjustments are really good. While visually they're very similar to Trickstuff, technically there's nothing magic/new about most of either Lewis or TS brake designs, so I think the plagiarism only extends as far as the looks, and even there the design is pretty reminiscent of 100 brakes that went before, albeit not fully CNCed. Put another way, couldn't we accuse pretty much all brakes of being copies of Formulas?
At £130 less than the equivalent Tech 4 v4 they do make a solid case for themselves assuming longevity and support stacks up.
they started appearing all over insta and fb over the last few months, very nice looking, did have a google and not much came up. that'll be trickstuffs look and silver that melted the heart , love my hope tech silver calipers and the levers, although not sure they'll look that great with factory forks
I hope they have good longevity, having good support is great but it's even better when you don't ever need it.
Fair enough, anyone wants to send me a set I’ll do back to back comparisons with the Real Thing.
That single adjuster thing - on the video it appears to have 2 'stops', the adjuster looks like it is 2 things and you pop the end bit out to adjust the other 'thing'...
Any idea if a Trickstuff reservoir cap will fit them?
Asking for a friend... 🙂
Ever heard the metaphor "Standing on the shoulders of giants"
Thats how we've developed just about everything.
Ever heard the metaphor “Standing on the shoulders of giants”
Sure, but then there's sneaking into the giant's office and looking over his shoulder...
Thanks for that write up Ben - definitely more trustworthy than a video review that feels like a sales pitch.
mashr
Full Member
I wonder if Clarks will rebrand them?
They already have
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/first-look-clarks-crs-brakes/
Clarks ones even come with Hope calipers 🙂
Clarks / Lewis - they don't appear to be exactly alike - lots of difference just visually
Bar clamp on the Lewis looks a bit less prone to flex.
That single adjuster thing – on the video it appears to have 2 ‘stops’, the adjuster looks like it is 2 things and you pop the end bit out to adjust the other ‘thing’…
So the adjuster is a regular barrel CNC thingy, but it has a second adjustment (via a grub screw) in the middle. Like a mini version of how high/low adjusters work on forks. The upside is its very neat, and the adjustments are meaningful and don't mess with the other aspects of the brake. The downside is that without the little add on bit which you plug in the end to adjust the bite point, it's actually quite hard to adjust (with an allen key on a tool). Maybe no harder than other brands, but none the less the extra dial you can plug in both makes all the difference and is also eminently looseable as its not fixed in way, its literally a tiny allen key on a thumb wheel.
Didnt realise they were the same (admittedly also didn’t look).
So we do have Lewis and Clarks in that case – someone has to be taking the piss
Those clarks are obviously a totally different brake as anyone with eyes can confirm. They may be great, I have not tried a set. You can get the Clarks ones in different brands, I don't believe Lewis have sold their brakes under anyone else's brand.
Lewis do actually make the brakes themselves - well Lewis is a brand owned by the actual manufacturer, but you know what I mean; they're not just a rebadge. They seem good to deal with.
Bar clamp on the Lewis looks a bit less prone to flex.
it will be but there is a wee support outboard of the lever ala Shimano
yep that was the point making, the Clarks lever does not have this shimano esque bit, just one of visual differences.
there is a chap locally that has Lewis, based purely on lever feel (car park squeeze, no ride) they felt very nice.
I spotted these on the instagram feed of a mechanic who is famously anal picky about brakes. Admittedly he got sent a set for free but he seems to like them compared to MT7s.
I was really interested by the integrated bite point and lever throw adjuster and emailed the company directly to ask if they'd sell me just that part to try and bodge into my Direttissimas. The Direttissimas are amazing but a bite point adjustment would be a nice thing to have.
Anyway, they eventually refused to send me the parts which is fair enough, I wasn't really expecting them to say yes, but before that they did tell me that every single part was available to buy as a spare and sent me these exploded diagrams to let me pick which parts I needed.
I do think it's very crappy to rip off the Trickstuff aesthetic and I'd feel quite conflicted about buying a set.
how would you say the Lewis compare to latest Hopes?
Hmm. Probably on par in terms of power with a v4 but Ive not ridden the two back to back and the conditions Ive run the lewis in haven't been anything like nice, so its been asked to do a lot. I think the lever on the Lewis has a more solid, shimano like feel which I prefer to the big moto lever on the Hope. The Lewis takes e4 pads so you get a little less friction area which I guess accounts for the feel differences too - it will need a bigger lever piston to caliper bore ratio to jack the power up, which will rob it a bit of the feel, but I happen to like that slightly firmer feel.
I should say one flaw is the lack of iSpec EV mount at this time. The wide clamping zone and length of lever makes set up with Shimano tricky. I run XT and Ive made it work but its not perfect. I needs an EV adaptor really. One is in the works I believe but its definitely better with SRAM at the mo.
Two people i ride with have them and have been happy with them so far (plenty of power and modulation). They both pretty much said if the brake stay consistant then for money it's a no brainer.
People are spending £350 on no-name Chinese brakes? Because they look like Trickstuff (but aren't really?) and have been plugged by some "influencers"?
Genuinely surprised by that.
of course you can always get a copy of a lewisbrake.....
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006171373934.html
( I'm not saying you should....)
Would be tempted to try them if my saints ever fail. The e4 pad would put me off though, the bigger v4 would have been a better choice.
Mainly as I thought hope e4 brakes were rubbish whereas v4 were ok.
Can’t understand the love for these at all. £280 seems an absolute rip off when an extra £100 will get you a set of made in the U.K., Goodridge-hosed, Hardline-proven brakes with spares guaranteed for 5 years (and probably a lot longer) with incredibly strong residuals if you ever choose to sell them and (in my experience) assistance over the phone or email.
Opened this thread and found myself starting to think that they sound like good value for a minute until I remembered I've never spent anything like that on brakes and so I don't have to feel conflicted about copyright issues etc.
how would you say the Lewis compare to latest Hopes?
Hmm. Probably on par in terms of power with a v4 but Ive not ridden the two back to back and the conditions Ive run the lewis in haven’t been anything like nice, so its been asked to do a lot. I think the lever on the Lewis has a more solid, shimano like feel which I prefer to the big moto lever on the Hope. The Lewis takes e4 pads so you get a little less friction area which I guess accounts for the feel differences too – it will need a bigger lever piston to caliper bore ratio to jack the power up, which will rob it a bit of the feel, but I happen to like that slightly firmer feel.I should say one flaw is the lack of iSpec EV mount at this time. The wide clamping zone and length of lever makes set up with Shimano tricky. I run XT and Ive made it work but its not perfect. I needs an EV adaptor really. One is in the works I believe but its definitely better with SRAM at the mo.
thanks @benpinnick
Ohh the radials look cool
Ohh the radials look
coolthe same as Trickstuff Picola HDs
FTFY.
I don’t get why, if the genuinely have innovated, why make them look the same as someone else’s product, isn’t that asking for trouble, if not from litigation, simply from people assuming they are just shit copies?
Stainless pistons don't sound great for heat management?
Yeah, but mark your card immediately by looking like a counterfeit crap, you won’t sell as many as if you pick your own design
Stainless pistons don’t sound great for heat management?
I'm not convinced it makes that much difference. And after all the worn/sticking plastic, ceramic and whatever else over the years, the stainless ones in most other applications just keep working 🤷♂️
There's a ti version, with the bolts and the pistons in titanium.
Why are we still talking about Goodridge metal braided hoses as a selling point? I thought we got past that in about 2012. Kevlar is better for bike use- just as good in use, lighter, more flexible and cheaper. It just doesn't look fancy is all.
It just doesn’t look fancy is all.
answered your own question. Plus its wider diameter, threading the stuff through frames is both a PITA and because the only benefit of braided hoses are that they look cool, you loose that to.
Mainly as I thought hope e4 brakes were rubbish whereas v4 were ok.<br /><br />
well you’d be wrong.
They might be great, they might not. I just don't like the thought of China ripping off someone else's hard work and selling it cheaper. I try to buy as much as I can that's made in the UK. Orange bike, Exposure lights, Hope brakes, etc. The videos I watch online of Chinese stuff gives me the impression that the quality control is hit and miss. Some carbon bars for example will give you years of service, but an identical set will fail in the first mile and you'll break your face. At the end of the day you make a choice and pay your money I guess.
Trick$tuff brakes are so highly rated their precision machining to the finest mm and their quality control? That won’t come cheap and will be difficult to emulate in a Chinese factory
fair bit of snobbery there
are we not at the stage where china has surpassed us in precision manufacturing?
I don’t get why, if the genuinely have innovated, why make them look the same as someone else’s product, isn’t that asking for trouble, if not from litigation, simply from people assuming they are just shit copies?
Chinese culture has a very different view of creativity and IP to ours. A long time ago it was considered a skill to be able to reproduce something like a Ming vase accurately. It wasn't seen as a copy, more like equalling the skills the original showed. Same now to a point, seems there's more western influence in the whole topic but they'll copy something quite happily, now with added commercial incentive. The main reason they might not copy something is probably if there's a business relationship with the originator. And if you want to sue them it'll get very expensive. If it's just the looks, suing for design copyright or passing off could get complicated.
I guess they've found a perfect market in cycling - blokes who like stuff that looks cool but don't want to pay Ming vase money.
are we not at the stage where china has surpassed us in precision manufacturing?
Not really, or in volume yes but maybe not necessarily in ability. For some factories the business practice may be to keep things looking the same but remove cost by using cheaper materials or speeding things up, keep going until something goes wrong or someone notices then deal with it. It's probably less of a thing these days but it can seem variable there. Of course it varies by factory and it's not a problem unique to China. There's some high-end quality stuff made there too.
Just remember, Hope pay fair wages to skilled manufacturing employees in the UK.
That little detail is also contributing to UK taxation.
Adding that to the backup that's available on a critical component to the safety and fun of my biking and the lack of any doubt over quality control..?
Trick$tuff brakes are so highly rated their precision machining to the finest mm and their quality control? That won’t come cheap and will be difficult to emulate in a Chinese factory
China builds spacecraft, stealth fighters, submarines, etc. Machining some disc brakes for a bicycle is really not very difficult. I have no doubt that Chinese engineers are quite capable of making good products, the quality control concern is whether they are cutting corners to do stuff on the cheap and then what chance you have of getting something fixed under warranty if it goes wrong.
The machining accuracy and capability thing might be a bit of a moot point. There are probably only two parts of the entire brake that needs an accurate machining, the reservoir cylinder and piston interface, and the caliper pistons and bores. Even on these, there is a rubber seal that probably isn’t manufactured to the same tolerance as the sealing components it is going between. As much as Trickstuff are high end, I don’t think it is machining accuracy that makes them powerful.
But yes, I’d echo the general sentiment, for that money I think I’d rather have the reassurance of chipping in a bit more and getting something like Hope brakes. IMO, there are some parts of a bike that I wouldn’t want to cut corners on.
I guess they’ve found a perfect market in cycling – blokes who like stuff that looks cool but don’t want to pay Ming vase money.
I'm always surprised that there's such a thriving industry in making knock offs of high end, very niche MTB parts.
Can you also get knock off xtr, Saint and x0 parts on AliExpress?
Do "influencers" plug those on YouTube?
Is this not a bit like buying a fake Rolex watch or Chanel handbag?
Why wouldn't you just get a nice midrange brake set with established reputation and product support instead? Potentially for less money in this case.
I’m always surprised that there’s such a thriving industry in making knock offs of high end, very niche MTB parts.
Look at the engagement levels on instagram for high end builds, all-the-gear bikes, customised parts, Dangerholm's stuff etc. Who wants a durable, sensible hi-lo spec build that just works eh?
I try to buy as much as I can that’s made in the UK. <br />
each to their own but my experience has been somewhat different. 2 sets of Hope brakes were distinctly average, my exposure strada is horrifically overpriced and the run time is crap, and the orange 5 I had was significantly worse that the specialized that quickly replaced it
chinese products are every bit as good as uk manufactured ones ime, and significantly cheaper. That said I wouldn’t be buying these brakes at that price..
Mainly as I thought hope e4 brakes were rubbish whereas v4 were ok.
well you’d be wrong
Hope fanboy triggered.
I’ve been running a set of the Clarks crs brakes for around 6 months. Work fine no issues. <br /><br />
I've been using a set for a few weeks now. They easily have as much power as V4s. They are £280 a set not £350. I'm using Magura storm rotors which you can pick up for 20 quid each.
Hope fanboy triggered.
Oh **** off. It's just boring.
As much as Trickstuff are high end, I don’t think it is machining accuracy that makes them powerful.
Correct.
Trickstuff Maxima's are incredibly powerful because they have a higher leverage rate than most. 2x17mm and 2x16mm pistons per caliper (these Lewis' are 2x17 and 2x14, at least the ones available currently are, their website says new ones have 4x17mm pistons), and a smaller master cylinder bore than most, along with a lever arc that is quite progressive as it goes through its travel.
Where the tolerances come in though, is that on anyone else's hardware previously, this would have resulted in a brake lever that pulled into the bar without much happening. The high tolerances, the cartridge bearings on all pivots, the goodridge hoses... It's marginal gains to get an acceptable lever feel back with an insane amount of power.
Maxima's are pretty squishy by most peoples standards in the car park test. The difference in riding them is that you don't need to access much of the power available to make the bike stop in a rapid fashion. Significantly reduced input at the lever of course helps with arm pump and rider fatigue. But even on a well bled Maxima, with the levers positioned quite far out, you can still pull the lever into the bar with a lot less effort than on most other brakes.
Really wish I hadn't sold mine now... The reality was that the goodridge hoses were a pain on almost any bike as they don't fit in the same 4mm holes as a typical brake hose does (as they're 5mm thick), and if you have more than one bike, you won't want to ride the other bikes until you've fitted Maxima's to those too!
I'd be interested to try these Lewis brakes. Don't think I'll be spending my own money on them any time soon though. Not when I value the modulation of Code RSC's over and above absolute power anyway, and where a change of pads to CL Brakes VRX (in addition with SRAM's HS2 rotors) makes enough of a difference in stopping performance so as not to wish for any more, at least for the riding I do...
FWIW, I chatted with the Hope guys about the Tech4's at EWS Innerleithen last year, shortly after they had come out. The brief had been simple... Improve all the shortcomings of the tech3's that had been highlighted by other brakes, not least of all the Trickstuff's. The calipers weren't the issue, the M/C was. So they completely redesigned it, pivot bushings were replaced with cartridge bearings, the bore size was reduced slightly I believe, the fulcrum distance was increased slightly etc... All made for a lighter feeling, more powerful brake.
All this said... It's worth remembering why the fast boys and girls are fast, and it isn't cos they've got the most powerful brakes. They're fast cos they're staying off the brakes wherever possible!
Trickstuff Maxima’s are incredibly powerful because they have a higher leverage rate than most. 2x17mm and 2x16mm pistons per caliper (these Lewis’ are 2×17 and 2×14, at least the ones available currently are, their website says new ones have 4x17mm pistons), and a smaller master cylinder bore than most, along with a lever arc that is quite progressive as it goes through its travel.
So in conclusion, they've visually copied trickstuff's lever design, but the engineering's completely different (better/worse, who knows)
speeding things up, keep going until something goes wrong or someone notices then deal with it.
The irony being that Hope deliberately machine things 'badly' to get that "CNC" finish (presumably they do the internals better than the external).
All this said… It’s worth remembering why the fast boys and girls are fast, and it isn’t cos they’ve got the most powerful brakes. They’re fast cos they’re staying off the brakes wherever possible!
Chicken Vs egg though.
If you believe you can stop on a sixpence, you don't drag the brakes for comfort.
I was riding like crap this weekend, got home and realized I had no rear brake pads left 😂 I just thought it was the rain and mud.
[no, I didn't notice the noise, It was pissing it down, and it was Swinley, grinding noises form the brakes is par for the course!]
So in conclusion, they’ve visually copied trickstuff’s lever design, but the engineering’s completely different
If they copied them, the engineering would be the same. If the engineering is completely different, they haven't copied them.
That was my point. If they're different shapes, sizes, etc then it's not really a copy is it.
Whether that's better or worse is debatable, I would have thought that mimicing a known good brakes lever length, pivots, piston, hydraulic ratio etc would be the sensible starting point, then let loose your designer to re-invent the wheel visually. Rather than mimicing the look of a good brake, but re-engineering it internally. It's worked though, people know about them and talk about them which might not have been the case otherwise.
TBH the whole "quality" argument is nonsense. Shimano and SRAMs quality and reliability has been awfull when it comes to brakes. These could fall apart in 6 months and still be considered more reliable than Shimanos leaking* calipers or SRAMs** lever pistons.
*Touch wood not a problem I've had
** every single pair I've owned has failed eventually.
R & D; Ripoff and Duplicate (as it was known somewhere I worked).
Shimano / Shumano - one of these things is not like the other.
I collected mine last, week from the national distributor in Switzerland. Sadly the same week I had surgery on my broken collarbone, so it will be a while until I get to try them.
I honestly considered the Trickstuff brakes, and Hopes.
Hope are reported to have a very linear feel, which I was keen to avoid. I'm also not sold on the bulky looks.
The Trickstuff brakes were in stock, but that hasn't often been the case. I have ridden with people who use them with glowing reports.
So I thought I'd try these, just cos. I first heard of them from Instagram, bee_kay77, an account I started to follow to get tips on how to get the best from my wife's Magura MT7 brakes.
I was initially concerned about spares availability, but I live just around the corner from the distributor, which offers some confidence. And I've already had problems finding parts for Formula, so no doubt Hope would have been similar here.
The initial reaction was that they have fancy looking proper packaging, a reasonable manual, stickers etc. The finish looks ok. I went for silver which is rather unforgiving, but should last well. Black might look better to hide some of the shut lines etc. The hose is not a genuine Goddridge, but something similar. It has reusable hose barbs.