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With no spoiler thread today, and a very quiet day here at work, I'd thought I'd start this off.
Yesterday I posted a comment early on in the race before it all kicked off that the peleton needs a new 'patron'. I'm even more convinced now after yesterday's madness. Obviously this wouldn't stop cars driving into riders, but it would help to steady things down in dicey situations. Just watched an interview with Cadel, he said that the main group slowed down after the Vino crash, but not everyone. Some tweeters, particularly festinagirl, have spotted a trend of Leopard going to the front and pushing on when a GC guy is stopped or chatting to the team car. We need someone to sort this out.
Now I know I'm gonna get people saying 'it's a race, it's every man for himself' but that just shows a lack of understanding of professional bike racing.
So, I'm after your opinions and, if you agree with me, your nominations for patron.
I'm leaning towards Cadel Evans, I think he's really turned himself around in terms of his public image - no longer psycho spoilt brat - and he earnt my respect in last year's Giro when he turned himself inside out on the Zoncalan.
[u][b]PLEASE NOTE: THIS IS NOT THE PLACE FOR THE INFERNAL DOPING ARGUMENTS*[/b][/u]
Any news on Flecha? I've just watched the highlights of yesterdays stage with my lad and was a bit shocked. Will he continue?
Thought everyone slowed right up yesterday after the big pile up where Vino broke himself. The breakaway guys gained 2/3 minutes there and you could see them all sat up/discussing with the race organisers. Looked like Thor, Gilbert and Spartacus doing the organising. Usually the guy in yellow, pink etc is the guy that takes charge of things like that.
timbur, this doesn't quite answer your question, from team sky's website:
With Flecha safely back on the team bus Team Principal Dave Brailsford said the team would look at the matter during the rest day, saying: “He’s not the best to be honest. He’s got a very nasty cut and laceration to his knee. His elbow is not good.“He’s got a lot of whiplash. A bit like being in a car crash really and so whether he can continue or not we don’t know yet.
“We’ve got a rest day tomorrow so we’ll assess him then and take it from there.
“When things like this happen it’s important to stay calm. Obviously there is a lot of emotion amongst the team but we’ve decided that the best thing to do in these situations is to remain calm and assess the situation.
“I’m in contact with the race organisers and we’re deciding on the action we’re going to take and we will comment further tomorrow.”
My guess would be he'll start Tuesday's stage, but I wouldn't be surprised if he gets into the team car after a while.
Usually the guy in yellow, pink etc is the guy that takes charge of things like that.
I can't see anybody outside SaxoBank listening to anything Contador* has to say.
*I refer you to the end of my OP!
There is no patron this year. The patron isn't simply the best rider or anything like that - it's someone that the peloton as a whole respect and/or fear enough to listen to what they say. Lance for good or bad had that position. Contador/Evans/Schleck/anyone else simply don't have that respect across the board.
Someone like Millar would seem like a logical choice. Very experienced, apparently respected in the peleton, seems to be in the front groups the majority of the time.
I'm not sure a real GC contender is the man for the job as they will have other things on their mind.
Millar could give it a go IMO but I don't think he's popular or respected enough across the board for him to be able to do it alone.
I said this on another thread yesterday - there's no one strong team that can control things effectively. Even HTC's lead-out train, probably the best in the world, don't always have it their way. Compare it with Cipo's old Saeco lead out train in the 90's, nothing ever came close to them!
In the same way, Lance Armstrong had pretty much absolute control over the bunch - no break succeeded without his tacit agreement and he had a team strong enough to dominate the race most of the time.
Millar and Cancellara are two of the most respected people in the peloton at the moment (look at Millar's behaviour on the stage of the Giro the day after Wouter Weylandt was killed, he handled it perfectly). But everyone knows that neither of those two are GC contenders so they don't have quite the same clout when they're not in yellow/pink...
This year the crashes are having a big impact on the GC. Lots of riders out who would have had a chance of a top 10, and Contador down by 1:40. I can't remember there being so many crashes before - not to be having such an inluence on the overall race.
OK it has been wet and windy - but it has been before without so many accidents. So why is this happening? Luck? The route?
Anyway Spartacus seems to step into the Patron role - eg. last year's neutralised stage finish - he was one of the leaders for that was he not? With all the crashes this year I'm a little surprised the riders haven't done something similar.
Had an each way bet on Vino 🙁
The other day there was a guy on the radio saying that when something happens to the guy in the peleton who 'initiate' the pile up, there's a scream or a shout or something like that that the riders senses/hear which makes them be careful and the pileups are smaller.
Nowadays at least half the peloton has at anyone time, a directeur sportif who shouts stuff in the ear piece, so they don't get the warning and hence the huge pileups.
think it died a bit last year when the maillot Jaune was attacked during a mechanical last year
I would help but it seems like the unwritten code is breaking down.
Leopard upped the pace quite a bit when Wiggins went down a few days ago, Spartacus is only interested when its one of his guys down
Last years 'mechanical' was entirely his own fault and so I dont think attacking was all that much out of order. Although the French didnt like it at the time.
Warton is right, Spartacus is only bothered when its his own team who is on the road. Miller or Thor would be good, but as stated above if they're not in yellow or pink they maybe dont have enough clout.
The peleton seems to be in transition at the minute. Whether its a post Armstrong thing or a Contador related issue, or something else, there seems to be a certain amount of distrust. It's a bit more cut-throat, and dare I say it, a bit more exciting as a result.
My vote would be for Spartacus, but he's not a GC contender so perhaps doesn't have the leverage. Evans? Well I think he needs to win something first...
There is no patron this year.
That was the point I was making in my OP, n'est pas? 😕
the crux of the matter:
it seems like the unwritten code is breaking down.
How does this problem get fixed? Or is it not a problem?
Well yes but then you're going on to suggest people who could be. My point was really that there isn't anyone in the peloton at the moment who can be the patron - almost by definition if there isn't anyone who is the patron then it's because there isn't one. The patron doesn't wait to be asked...
Oh I see, misunderstood you there slightly, I see your point now you've made it better 😉
I think I was trying to say was 'who do you see stepping up to the job' in due course, as we could with one sooner rather than later. i agree there is no obvious candidate putting themself forward - and as you say, they are 'self-appointed'.
Who was the Italian that Lance had a grudge against who basically got shut out by the peleton? I want to say Cippollini, but I don't think so...
yossarian - Member
The peleton seems to be in transition at the minute. Whether its a post Armstrong thing or a Contador related issue, or something else, there seems to be a certain amount of distrust. It's a bit more cut-throat, and dare I say it, a bit more exciting as a result.[b]My vote would be for Spartacus, but he's not a GC contender so perhaps doesn't have the leverage. Evans? Well I think he needs to win something first...[/b]
What, world championship maybe? Cadel's palmares are up there with the top 1-2% of the peleton.
Matt
What, world championship maybe? Cadel's palmares are up there with the top 1-2% of the peleton.
Dunno really, I get the impression that the patron needs be successful to be fully respected. I'm not sure the Evans falls into that category yet.
Evans is plenty successful enough but just doesn't have the right personality which is what it's really about.
Eg - Big Mig was never the patron.
What sort of personality clubber? I would have thought that Evans was the right kind of guy, not confrontational enough?
Probably, yeah - and tbh, much as I like Evans as a rider, I think he's not universally liked for his personality and doesn't have enough fear to cancel that out (as per Armstrong).
Dunno, not sure if I would back off for drug cheat to get back on his bike.
Regarding Wiggins if you see the reaction that Cav did post-win maybe the communication isn't as brilliant as we think it is.
I suspect in times to come the 'unwritten rule' will become more and more forgotten. Probably down to money.
Sponsor - "so why didn't you win that stage after all the money we give you?"
Rider - "well, a rider from your competitors got a mechanical so we all slowed down and let him get back into the pack and subsequently win the race".
Sad but true. Don't see McLaren or Ferrari backing off if the Red Bull has an issue with it's gearbox.
Maybe [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Hinault ]The Badger*[/url] needs to organise a rider's meeting, especially for the youngsters? He's there on the podium everyday...
*linky for those who don't know, not trying to [b]patron[/b]ise anybody - see what I did there?? 8)
If Le Tour continues in this vein, it may breed a bit more fraternité ...
Sparticus could step up if he wanted to.
Yeah, I agree actually - Cancellara is the obvious choice though he may have to tweak his team's behaviour a bit (not pushing the pace whenever any other team's GC leaders crash)
Forgive me, but how does Cancellara cope in the high mountains? Is he in the grupetto? Don't think you can run things from there.
So you want a brick of a man who can keep up with whippet types?
He is not a police force who needs to be constantly in attendance. He is just a [i]force[/i], who you know will be disapproving if you're a naughty boy. So if you transgress, you know everyone will shun you.
Frankly, if you're off the front, you're off the front and good luck to you. Most of the really big pile ups this year Cancellara was there.
Whether he would want to stand up is another question.
Hincapie or Jens Voigt are two candidates for patron.
Doesn't matter in the mountains - there's not a huge pack there. The patron's job is when the majority of the field is together.
Hincapie and jens - sure both could do it and they're well respected (Hincapie less so IMO due to the lance connection) but I reckon that both are really just good team captains rather than patrons.
The more I think about it, the patron almost always has an element of ruling by fear and I just don't see that in the current peloton.
Jens?
another thing I noticed yesterday. Twice now Contador has been off the bag due to crashes, both times no Saxobank riders have aced him back on to the peloton. coincidence or something deeper?
It's radioshack jamming the Saxobank radio frequencies 🙂
Jens Voigt:good shout, but he must surely be retiring soon, he's the same age as me!!
[url= http://teamjva.com/jens-voigt-soundboard/ ]some 'shut up legs' fun[/url]
Jen Voigt doesn't retire from cycling. cycling retires from Jens.
just re-read my post, bag = back!
also, what about Hincapie for Patron?
EDIT: Just seen SBZ post
Jens. you did say someone everyone respects and has a lot of experience, he has the most respect and the most experience. he is also mostly at the front when it counts because of his status as super-domestique.
if not patrol he's well up on the list for 'ideal father figure'- for me at least. HOW cool would you be if he was your dad!
Who was the Italian that Lance had a grudge against who basically got shut out by the peleton? I want to say Cippollini, but I don't think so...
Philipe Simeoni was the guy armstrong hated
Shlecks are doing a tit for tat over last years stage and wont wait as they were done over, if he wasn't on leodard trek then Cacelara would be a good guv'nor, but atm is following the team line
Maybe The Badger* needs to organise a rider's meeting, especially for the youngsters? He's there on the podium everyday...
Never mind that just give him a bike and enter Team Blaireau with Bernard Hinault repeated 9 times. He'd sort it.
I think you're all making 'patron' into some semi-official job position, to be awarded to the rider most suitable to English speaking Tour telly watchers....
Times have changed, and even Hinault had little influence outside the Tour and French races. It's a commercial sport, and a lack of a 'patron' is a reflection of that, disappointing as it may be to the romantically inclined.
crikey - Member
I think you're all making 'patron' into some semi-official job position, to be awarded to the rider most suitable to English speaking Tour telly watchers....
Oh, I thought this was some sort of X-Factor style popularity thing? 😳
I heard Miller on Radio Scotland this afternoon saying that the old ways were dying and that it was a lot more cut throat in the pelaton with less respect now. Maybe the roll of patron is consigned to the past?
Well, I can't contribute to this thread, but I would like to say that I am upset about Vino. He was a hero in that stage.
It's Evans for me, now.
Ok, I think we've done all we can with that topic, so, not wanting to boss anyone about or anything 😉 I wish to pose...
A NEW QUESTION:
Who is your favourite pro rider who is racing this season? This can include those who have abandoned or didn't even start the tour. To make it harder for some of you, it can't be someone the same nationality as yourself.
I'm gonna get in early with Tommy Voeckler, he's my favourite Frenchman full stop*. It might seem like I'm jumping on the bandwagon (what with him being in yellow) but I can clearly remember his efforts in the 2004 where he held on with all of his might to the yellow jersey for far far longer than anyone expected. He became the 'french housewife's darling' and, if I'm frank, mine too. You can always rely on li'l Tommy to spark things off at some point, last year he won the overall Combativity prize for the tour and surely he must have one arm in the sleeve of it for this year already.
*with the possible exception of Inspector Clouseau
Surely we can do without "heroes" like Vinokourov. I wouldn't have waited for him either, whether he was injured or not.
Very surprising that Bertie wasn't paced back to the peloton by his men, can you imagine what Lance would have done if that had happened to him...!
Outside of Wiggo & Cav I'd have to go for Philippe Gilbert, he's been excellent. Always been a massive fan of Jens too.
Cav.
Heart on his sleeve, talks the talk, walks the walk.
I dont have any one favourite but attacking or hard as nails riders do it for me. Jens "shut up legs" Voigt, Tommy V, Crazy Thomas de Ghent, Johnny Hoogerland and little Amets Txurruka all get my full support. I've even come around to supporting Vino in the last two years 😮
Yeah, the last thing the tour needs is controversial, exciting, enigmatic riders like Vino.Surely we can do without "heroes" like Vinokourov.
Suppose you think the tour is better off without Pantani as well?
*treading dangerously close to breaking headfirst's original rule...*
Oi! 13th!!! Watch yourself now!! and mikeP - don't you start... 👿
I'm leaning towards Cadel Evans, I think he's really turned himself around in terms of his public image
Definitely turned his image around with his season in the rainbow jersey, IMO. Would like to see him do well, though suspect the big mountains will be his downfall once more. His diary is usually worth a read, typically updated each day of the tour. Still seems to have more haters than supporters though (maybe an Aussie thing?)
Karpets.. anyone Russian and still sporting a mullet deserves respect.
I think Mr Fabulous is too mellow to guide a raging peleton, even Thor had problems keeping them at pace yesterday..
Gutted to about Vino too, despite his transgression a couple of years ago, he was one of my fave riders, a true baradour. Big up respect to him and Evans in last years Giro, totally brilliant display of riding ability and determination.. You know the stage.
Totally agree that this years tour is not the same as last years, or any years previous. It's too cut throat, too much to loose/gain and too much at stake.. Look at the beefcake Andy has around him every single pedal stroke the lad makes.. All the old skool riders are either retiring or dropping out, whose left but the youngun's.. change, all change please. Glad to see some new faces ride hard.
Gilbert. can only attack, doesn't know how to do anything else, oh and I've got the same bike as him!
Also a big fan of Boonen, but I fear his best days are a long way behind him
Ahem. Sorry headfirst 😳
Back on track. Cancellara for me. Seeing him on the Paris Roubaix battling between just going for it while resisting dragging the other guys along behind him was great entertainment, and when he finally snapped and just bolted for the line, the winner was lucky there wasn't enough road left frankly!
Tommy Voeckler, 'french housewife's darling'
[img] 
[/img]
French housewives like a nice bit of tongue action?
[i]I said this on another thread yesterday - there's no one strong team that can control things effectively. Even HTC's lead-out train, probably the best in the world, don't always have it their way. Compare it with Cipo's old Saeco lead out train in the 90's, nothing ever came close to them![/i]
ok
Mario Cipollini
1993: 1 stage win;
1995: 2 stage wins
1996: 1 stage win;
1997: 2 stage wins;
1998: 2 stage wins
1999: 4 stage wins
Mark Cavendish
2008: 4 stage wins
2009: 6 stage wins
2010: 5 stage wins
2011: 2 stage wins
Don't really have a favourite tour rider, but I do enjoy watching it and looking out for the British riders, however Johnny Hoogerland is a name I am not going to forget in a hurry after yester day, a particularly super human effort to finish after the accident. I just hope he is able to continue and compete for the king of the mountains.
Karpets.. anyone Russian and still sporting a mullet deserves respect.
Maybe when he gets a bike that fits him.
[img] 
[/img]
Regardless of everything else, Vino doesn't know how to wear a helmet.
[img] 
[/img]
My favourite would be Andy or Cadel, I'm having difficulty choosing at the moment - Andy hasn't done much so far.
Although if I could choose from my nationality it would be Cav followed by Wiggins followed by Geraint.
[img] http://www.bigringriding.com/photo/1280/7416960600/1/tumblr_lnvepbviRC1qbxnpg [/img]
RealMan:
Although if I could choose from my nationality it would be Cav followed by Wiggins followed by Geraint.
But you can't, that would be cheating. And we know how everyone feels about cheats...
[For me, it would be Geraint followed by Wiggins followed by Cav].
The most interesting TdF for a while.
More 'stuff' going on than for years - controversial riders, bad driving, controversial route choice, no prologue, no mountains for a week and a half.
Loads to discuss.
And we've got a 'who's your favourite rider' thread?
So tell me guys, what's your favourite colour?
And we've got a 'who's your favourite rider' thread?
Everything else just turns into an argument about drugs..
And we've got a 'who's your favourite rider' thread?
David Millar for being plain speaking and not shy about voicing his opinions.
Geraint Thomas for being under-rated but bloody good. TdF winner in waiting there.
And we've got a 'who's your favourite rider' thread?So tell me guys, what's your favourite colour?
Should've got here earlier IdleJon (living up to your name? 😉 ), page 1 was quite interesting.
Suppose you think the tour is better off without Pantani as well?
I still miss him and still the fastest time up Alpe Huez [ I will let RM correct me on the spelling whilst reminding us he did it twice etc ]
Great guy back in the day when you knew it was fair as you knew everyone was cheating [but LA ]- Wades in with joke hoping ot get away with it and not let it descend into the dreaded drug one
Cav - honest and great interviews
Wiggos out "shit" for example brutally honest
Millar I like redemption and he has class IMHO
Alpe d'Huez.. and I've only done it once, and I shaved a massive 8 minutes off Pantanis time 😉
The first time man split the atom was when the atom tried to hold Realmans wheel, but cracked.
Shamlessly plagarised from http://www.jensvoigtfacts.com/
To be fair, I was in a Mondeo. Will hopefully get a chance to ride d'Huez in a few weeks, and although I'm not fit at all at the moment, I'm hoping for a reasonable time. Sub 55 would be nice, sub 50 would be awesome.
Doing it next year with my brother we have been since 1987 😉
His refusals not mine
Ah yeah.. a Welsh tour winner.. that'd be something 🙂
Cav.
Heart on his sleeve, talks the talk, walks the walk
Yeah - top man is Cav. I was talking about CG contenders though.
all this 'lack of respect' 'more cut throat now' stuff really reminds me of the last season of the wire. whose gonna shoot prop joe? who is the marlo in the peleton?
what we are (were) asking is, 'who is bunny to all the new kids? right?'
cav has got to be be michael. jens maybe omar? Lance's old crew all had a shot after he'd gone didn't they? george hincapie is slim charles NO DOUBT!
After seeing what he went through yesterday and how he responded to it - Hoogerland is my favourite rider. Absolute hero of a man.
Meanwhile in other rest day news...
First positive doping test. 🙁
Not Cancellara, he was a bit snide last year and is he even a big player in the Tour?
Evans has gone up in my estimation since the World Champs and seems to be the only GC contender racing, the plucky Ozzies always there. And he gained some nail award points last year climbing with only one good arm. Plus he has and will be up there all race long, and you can't say that about Cancellara.
He just needs to kick that ****ing stupid little mutt off a mountain and buy a Rotwieler and wear some looser pants and his the man.
We were talking a bit about this earlier today, and there just aren't the aggressive riders like Merckx, Hainault and Armstrong anymore. Evans is the closest we have.
I'm just surprised it took this long for one of the cars to knock out a competitor - if anyone has had the misfortune of being on the road between the stage finish and the location of the hotels in recent years they would know what I mean.
The drivers of the cars in the caravan get so hyped up by being in convoy and having the roads closed for them that they go absolutely mental. I've seen the convoy screaming along an alpine road after the race has finished at about 70mph when thousands of people/families etc are squeezed up against the barriers trying not to get wiped out as they walk back to their cars.
It was so bad coming back from Alpe d'Huez a couple of years ago that I smashed a rear quarterlight with my umbrella as one went past. It felt good.
LOL!
Miller might be as good as any. He does have a little of that "Elder Statesman" about him..
Do we really want someone like Lance running things again? I've been reading some books recently about his control of the peloton and it really does seem like his influence wasn't that positive and was more about him and his team controlling the race for themselves than managing the race as per the "unwritten rules".
I also don't buy the thing about it being just money that's making a difference. Baseball has a LOT of money in it but the rules are still fairly ruthlessly enforced and players are often thrown out of games for settling scores etc. Looks more like the riders don't really give a shit any more.
The politics of the peleton must be extremely complex is all I can say so from the outside looking in picking a patron isn't mch more than a matter of guesswork..