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Am I right in thinking that a lot of the current trail centres around the UK (specifically not talking about uplifts/bike parks) we're all created around a similar time in the early to mid 2000s? Feels like I've been riding the same places for decades now without much new stuff cropping up unless it's a gravity type venue.
Im sure there's a multitude of reasons like the cost of building work multiplying exponentially, loss of the grassroots racing scene, red tape, changes in the type of riding people do and a general lack of excitement around the sport given it's not longer in its infancy.
I could be rambling nonsense here but the end of 2023 has me reflecting on what I want out of riding next year and all I can see in terms of new experiences is stuff like bike packing and road/gravel riding with very little new stuff in the MTB world to explore.
Not to mention that EU funding seems to have dried up for some reason…
Natural stuff is great, but when the winter is this wet, it gets wrecked in the way that well built armoured stuff doesn’t.
I could be rambling nonsense here
Agreed. Why on earth would you base your 2024 plans on trail centres?
The mind boggles.
Halcyon days of outdoor access was early 2000s. Trail centres, open access mapping....
Tory govt of 2010 onwards really killed a lot of public focused investment off, and had they been able to would have reversed the pesky access stuff that had really pissed off their landowner supporters.
Have we really seen an uptick in MTB 'customers' to make them viable, there's a trail centre near to most folk these days, or some private MTB venture (BPW, B1KE, etc), not to mention even more 'natural' stuff that's been worked on for years?
There was a lot of investment in 2000s, but there was no infrastructure before that bar the natural, was up north when the 7stanes were starting, Glentress was like a mecca for most back then with folk from all over heading there, now you don't really have to venture that far as you'll pass 2 or 3 trails centres or alternates.
The amount of money involved in building one and maintaining it is eye watering so not many places are willing to spend the money...forestry have various reasons (not just because they want everyone going to Glentress so have invested exponentially there to the detriment of other places and potential places) but it largely revolves around the cost.
Plenty of places have stuff and if you want to see more - can you spare time at your local place (which may not be next door) to volunteer to build and maintain? If more people did this, it could help get more build (volunteering is great, but it requires commitment - almost entirely time).
As mentioned by others, the halcyon days of masses of EU cash to do stuff are long gone and there isn't enough to go round (well, there probably is but there are wars to pay to supply and various cash cow projects and cash drains) withing the UK.
A shame, but trail centres are just a small part of mountain biking, so it isn't a completely bleak picture.
Non cyclists have become less tolerant of the negatives.
A lot of which relates more to the increases in traffic and inevitable shit parking in all the (usually fairly small) surrounding towns and villages rather than to the actual riding of bikes in the woods.
I road a trail centre today and it was fab. I see them some as a bonus as they arrived after i started riding
But there is less money for these sort of projects. Plus as the sports moved on they don’t cater for all. Too easy for many. So loads of people are either on unofficial trails or specialist up lift centres
So you’re competing for a smaller groups of people with less cash
Personally I wish some one would build an armoured trail in the Chilterns. Happy to pay to play
Agreed. Why on earth would you base your 2024 plans on trail centres?
The mind boggles.
I do as much 'natural' riding as anything else but it's too easy on my MTB for the most part hence mentioning most of my goals for riding revolving around the gravel bike.
Given how often the weather is soaking here too, armoured trails do have value to me.
Perhaps I need to ditch the full suss and get a rigid mtb or something.
Foot and mouth really benefited trail centres, especially Glentress. As well as the funding drying up due to a certain political party and a certain referendum bringing in so many benefits. On top of that, the novelty factor seems to have worn off.
Seems that there are a lot of "Ghost" trails popping up due to the fact there is a lot of unofficial but just about tolerated trails at some North Wales trail centres.
if you want to see more – can you spare time at your local place (which may not be next door) to volunteer to build and maintain? If more people did this, it could help get more build (volunteering is great, but it requires commitment – almost entirely time).
If only it were that easy. We have a decent crew of riders who would happily invest that time to dig and maintain trails at our local (the amount of current unofficial stuff going in is testament to that). Issue is FE not having the time, money, or therefore inclination to support us in doing that. Like the Glentress comment above, we've basically been told all the little MTB money that there is in the midlands effectively goes to Cannock and Sherwood.
So we'll carry on digging and looking after stuff anyway...
Meanwhile at Cannock the forestry say there is no money because the parking fees have to pay for all the less popular centres! Still I think they might actually be doing some work on upper cliff.
Though a shout out to whoever is funding QECP. There at the weekend and the new skills area and mini trail were really popular with the kids. The resurfacing on the top of the blue descent had it flowing great.
In the beginning… before trail centres were a thing, the Forestry Commission led the way and going from zero to the trail centres like Afan and CyB felt amazing. But in Wales, for now at least, I don’t think NRW has the resources/funding stream nor (more importantly) the risk appetite to develop new centres. It is also harder given the increase in rider expectations . The private sector has also stepped in and set the standard so if a more official trails are done on NRW managed land it will probably be via a private sector partner or provider. The unofficial trails are of course a whole different thing.
As said, both BPW and 7 stanes got a lot from the EU, not just direct funding to the trails but wider infrastructure in the area too
I can't see much investment coming from government, the only real new centre has been the Atherton's dyfi uplift , how much of that is private investment and how much local funding?
the other question is how much demand there is? there's a bit of 'if you build it they be will m come' but its a pricey hobby, bikes, gear fuel all add up
Foot and Mouth was a trigger for a lot of funding, and was the primary driver behind things like the 7 Stanes.
But after the initial funding, Forestry realised that they suddenly had all these trails, with no viable business model to make them economically sustainable. However it was a useful way for Forestry Commission to hit recreational use targets that had been put in place by the then Labour governments.
Roll on to now, governments (Tories south off the border, and SNP north of the border) have mostly removed recreational use targets as they cost money. The result is in Scotland, FLS's primary focus is fully back on profit and timber production. Recreation is something to just bumble along trying to make money any way possible, and cause the minimum disruption to timber production.
The latest Glentress additions have only been funded because Forest Holidays (a commercial arm of FC/NRW/FLS that spans England/Wales/Scotland) wanted the land around the original freeride area for lodges. Funding was topped up with various grants, but without the combination of the lodges and the world champs, it probably wouldn't have happened.
Every scheme, new or upgrading existing trails, in Wales for the last 15 years has heavily relied on EU Regional Development Funding. BPW had a lot, the Cognation Project was 50% funded by it, Antur Stiniog had a lot too. Now that has all gone and the replacement funding promised has never materialised nothing is happening. There are two projects that I know of that are ready to go once funding is available, one just outside Cardiff to make the rider-built tracks at Forest Fawr official and one to legitimise the trails at Twrpentwys, but there hasn't been any movement on either for a long time. The last bit of EU funding was spent on upgrading Cwmcarn but only a small part of it went into the trails, most went in resurfacing Forest Drive and building a few picnic spots.
It will be a long wait before any new projects materialise, places are more likely to close.
There has been a fair bit of investment in my local trail centre, Ballyhoura in Ireland. I am not sure I am a big fan of the changes though. They have added new trails which is good and added graded trails too ( reds_ blacks) which is good but there has been a big swing to sanitising the trails with hardpack everywhere. Lots of man made berms/drops etc but everything that's not a black is smoothed out hardback with all the natural surfaces gone. You could most trails on a fully ridged bike.
I would settle for some investment in the trail centres that already exist.
The way I view it is that these places exist to help riders progress, so imagine if the routes were all blue overall but braided and looped to allow riders with different skills, to all enjoy rides together but provide easy access to the next more difficult feature for next time around.
On that note, often at Gisburn or Dalby, the volunteers catch grief for smoothing the place, when all they've done is return it to its original state. If riders want rougher more technical trails, they exist everywhere else, there are no lack of more difficult trails and features these days outside of TC's.
I only go to trail centres once or twice a year so don’t notice a ‘lack’ of new ones. I’d echo the points above though - who pays for them? Must cost a fortune to put the infrastructure and trails in.
It’s made worse that way at new developments there have been are tailored to blue / green family trails designed to help families spend as much money as possible in the bike hire shop and cafes as possible. New developments for actual riders are even more scarce. We went to Afan a couple of years ago and it was sad to see how run down it all felt with little maintenance let alone anything new. It has put us off going back any time soon.
It’s made worse that way at new developments there have been are tailored to blue / green family trails designed to help families spend as much money as possible in the bike hire shop and cafes as possible. New developments for actual riders are even more scarce.
Wow. Self-entitlement off the scale.
There has been a fair bit of investment in my local trail centre, Ballyhoura in Ireland. I am not sure I am a big fan of the changes though. They have added new trails which is good and added graded trails too ( reds_ blacks) which is good but there has been a big swing to sanitising the trails with hardpack everywhere. Lots of man made berms/drops etc but everything that’s not a black is smoothed out hardback with all the natural surfaces gone. You could most trails on a fully ridged bike.
Isn't that just following the swinley blue model? (And other places) Higher traffic, lower challenge trails get surfaced in a finish that wears harder and thus deals with year round use and less maintenance better?
It reduces the burden of trail maintenance, and means resources can be focussed elsewhere. It's the kind of thing trail centres have to do in order to be able to build you those new reds and blacks I reckon.
You can choose to see it as a negative or as the trail managers thinking about these things and coming up with a plan that lets them do more with the budget and personnel they have available...
It’s made worse that way at new developments there have been are tailored to blue / green family trails designed to help families spend as much money as possible in the bike hire shop and cafes as possible.
Not at Swinley at least. I went Wednesday to find the endless snake of the Blue trail has been reduced, and there's a new route better signposted with a new section for the red which adds more berms, jumps and table tops to a 22km loop.
Tory govt of 2010 onwards really killed a lot of public focused investment off
Yep, and the local council's ability to contribute. There were plans to develop Lee Quarry, including cafe, etc but then tory austerity hit and all council money was pulled leading to lack of maintenance and policing so it got destroyed by storms and motorbikes.
Covid/lockdowns have also made matters worse.
Wow. Self-entitlement off the scale.
Forgive me for suggesting, on a mountain bike forum, that mountain bike trail centres should invest in trails for mountain bikers and not just for family entertainment days. What about those of us who do want to venture more than a mile from the car and cafe
Not at Swinley at least. I went Wednesday to find the endless snake of the Blue trail has been reduced, and there’s a new route better signposted with a new section for the red which adds more berms, jumps and table tops to a 22km loop.
We went this week as we were in the area with the outlaws.
Thats the first time I’ve been there in probably 6 years & hopefully the last for the next 6. I’m not going to waste energy typing about how bad it is there.
However, I’m mostly confused by how poorly maintained 90% of the loop is, yet they have invested a not insignificant amount of time building a section of trail with features in, that 95% of the people who go to Swinley are never going to hit.
It’s just weird.
Forgive me for suggesting, on a mountain bike forum, that mountain bike trail centres should invest in trails for mountain bikers and not just for family entertainment days.
Because for every one rider who is able to and wants to shred their gnarpoon down the rad sick trail, there are a dozen people who don't know what any of that means and want a family day out, ideally on trails where they're not going to die.
So they cater for their audience.
It's a bit chicken and egg - you cater for that subset = you get that subset.
It's not an easy task at all because "MTB" covers such a broad range of abilities from kids out for a family day on simple traffic-free trails to weekend enthusiasts to semi-pro riders who want a day out smashfest.
What about those of us who do want to venture more than a mile from the car and cafe
Yeah Colin. You unadventurous blue route following trail centre nincompoop you.
Get out on your bike and have a real adventure 🤩
You unadventurous blue route following trail centre nincompoop you.
Oi, I resemble that comment!
Places like Northampton and Leamington spa I think show where trail centre money is best spent. Giving accessibility to safe trails in a location that you don't need a car to reach has much more social value than creating a playground for T5 owners to spend their weekend driving to. The Leamington spa one was part funded by British cycling, not sure where else they have invested in but I'm sure there are other examples
Not to mention government cuts…
That's one way of wording it.
First time I rode a trail centre was around 2016 in Wales. Just after the leave vote.
Was surprised by the number of signs with little EU flags on them. Can the Welsh not read "funded by the EU"?
Can the Welsh not read “funded by the EU”?
Yep but scary immigrants etc etc. You can sort of get your head around well-to-do middle England voting leave but in Wales it truly was Turkeys voting for Christmas.
I'm from S.Wales and go back pretty regularly and the level of pig ignorance and racism is off the charts!
Yeah Colin. You unadventurous blue route following trail centre nincompoop you.<br />Get out on your bike and have a real adventure
LOL. I'm beginning to think that @chrismac is gently trolling and/or I'm just missing the irony in their posts 😂
You can sort of get your head around well-to-do middle England voting leave but in Wales it truly was Turkeys voting for Christmas.<br /><br /><br />
IME, not necessarily well-to-do middle England, but ex-mining areas in England and Wales. Oh, former industrial places like West Midlands, Dundee etc etc. We moved from a relatively affluent area of Sheffield to an ex-mining village in Nottinghamshire, and a lot of people were similar those you mention live in S.Wales - we moved away!
i used to work for the European Regional Development Fund back in the early 1990’s. There was a Tory govt in at the time, and one of the biggest problems we had was getting funding recipients to put signage up to say that the EU had part funded their projects - and in a lot of cases, they’d had 50% funding! I think a lot of this reluctance to acknowledge any EU help came from the anti-EU tripe in the right wing press (perhaps because their offshore dwelling tax-dodging owners were afraid that the EU might bring in tax laws that would hit their wealth?!). <br /><br />
I find it ironic that most of the former industrial and mining areas that received huge amounts of EU regeneration money were also where the strongest support for ‘leave’ were. It’s just same old story of naieve ignorant people getting persuaded into something by a bunch of con artists.
spend their weekend driving to
This was one of the reasons for investing in great trail centres in places people rarely visit… to get more people to visit… and to get them to return again and again. Be it days out or long weekends away. And it worked. Running a trail centre as if it can fund itself, or just to serve the local community, misses some of the big positives they can bring to an area. This big picture long term area improvement stuff has now gone missing. We all know why. See above.
Money is obviously at the core of things. In Scotland, FLS is significantly self-funded (i.e. by timber sales and renewable energy ground leases) with only a relatively small part from the government (which is not set in stone). So naturally they focus on planting and harvesting over recreation which really doesn't make any meaningful monetary contribution. There's also a huge timber industry that wants (and in the case of FSC certification, very often needs) FLS timber - as a govt agency, they can't afford to not support a large number of rural employers and jobs. Still reckon they could do more in terms of maintenance, but you know, there are reasons for focusing elsewhere.
I often wonder if there could ever be a charging system for somewhere like Glentress to keep the trails in better condition, but with the outdoor access code, not sure how that could feasibly work. The rise of trail associations and agreements with land owners seem to be a viable route forward, but it is all dependent on volunteers which isn't easy (I am guilty of not helping enough).
Another thing is liability, or rather, the impact is has. It is a lot of time, effort and money when someone like FLS gets a claim against them. If they decide to contest it, that could be years of on/off work before a hearing. Some of the stories...
I'm going to partly answer my own question, but is there anything stopping people from just maintaining the trails themselves? In Squamish there is an official trail crew but there's only around 5 of them and hired seasonally, so with 500+ trails in the area it's not surprisingly volunteers (like me) that do much of the work to keep the trails from getting wrecked. So lets say there are braking bumps on your favourite corner at your local trail center.... Is it illegal to throw in a fold-up shovel in a backpack and fix it up yourself mid-ride? Or stash some tools on a quiet day and over time fix up eroded sections to put them back to how they were. I'm not talking building unofficial trails here.
A couple of issues would be the fact that many of the trail centers in the UK are 'remote' so might not have much of a local riding base. Combined with the fact that many of the riders at trail centers drive 1hr+ to get to the trails so probably don't feel that the trails are their responsibility. That said, I used to drive from the east end of Birmingham to help out on Cannock Chase from time to time.
I often wonder if there could ever be a charging system for somewhere like Glentress
Of course there can. The area would need to be clearly identified and a byelaw enacted under Section 12 of the Land Reform Act.
Maintenance of existing trails seems to be the biggest issue, indeed. Lots of trails are fundamentally good to ride, just rutted, broken etc.
I suppose that's what the UK Trails Project is aiming to help by auditing what we have + developing a strategy to protect existing trails.
Doesn't look like NRW are making much money from tourism in their existing centres as they want to offload the Coed-y-Brenin and Nant-yr-Arian:
"I often wonder if there could ever be a charging system for somewhere like Glentress to keep the trails in better condition"
Like the car parking charge?
...that folks with £4k bikes and £60k vans try to circumnavigate?
only £4k on a bike? Have you seen the cost of ebikes these days?
I'll get my coat on the way out 🙂
Always the case..
Rose hamsterley today and the people dodging the car parking charges, being parked just outside of the reach of the anpr cameras each had a 30 grand + vehicle.
It's only about £50 a year to park and the trails won't pay for themselves...
Trail centres were great for getting people to other places, but the tourism angle is just a small one (that admittedly seems to create several £millions each year from the press releases we get to see), the health and wellbeing angle is massive and is more for on the doorstep people/riders - so should be easier to secure some funding to help get trails built - just not with a tourist slant on them. 7Stanes was a great 'tourism' project, but seems to be the one everyone wants to go with, but there are others that are just as viable and don't need as much travelling to meet the requirements (although, I think it would be foolish to assume that each house/street/village/town would have a suitable trail centre on their doorstep...there might need to be some form of travel to get to it, but it is likely to be less specific and more generic i.e some kind of public bus service or rail service - again, aware this doesn't work everywhere).
The current model is always going to cater for the lowest common denominator, so currently it seems to be flow trails and greens and blues. Not a massive issue for a trail centre, but not that many trails have the same sort of flow that is being built in trail centres just now (you don't seem to need to do anything on the bike - you just join the motorway and use the berms to guide you round the corners - they are great fun, but I don't find many of those out on more natural trails. Which, I'm guessing is part of the point of them, they are there to attract riders who can't find that kind of stuff naturally - which is absolutely fine for those who want things like that.
I suspect it will reduce the number of people going elsewhere though...which would be a shame.
@minus Though a shout out to whoever is funding QECP. There at the weekend and the new skills area and mini trail were really popular with the kids. The resurfacing on the top of the blue descent had it flowing great.
@minus, thank you. that would be 3 people for the blue descent and the mini trail (lite blue as we call it) Hoping to have the whole of that section done by March. Started it over 12 months ago, funded and created by volunteers originally by Scott from Southern Enduro. The work Scott and team did won them the award of Best Volunteer Trail in 2018 bt MBTR. The skills area was funded by various external bodies.
It’s only about £50 a year to park and the trails won’t pay for themselves…
@whyterider93 - Check first if the carpark fees go back into the trails, a lot of the time they go nowhere near.
I know UK Trails Project have been mentioned a few post ago, and there's also Robin Grant and his work trying to bring local trail groups together.
I think this is where we need to go for the next few years - a focus on local trails that people can ride from their door (DickBarton's points about wellbeing, etc. resonate with me quite strongly). These might not always be the full gnar (although most places should be able to conjure up at least a little bit of red/black spice in places) but would be accessible and relatively sustainable.
The barrier I see though is that this would require acceptance of, and support for, local volunteer groups by land owners and managers. In itself not insurmountable but the issues around liability and insurance always rear their heads and seem to put the stoppers on a lot of these local projects. That's certainly one of the main reasons FE posit for not engaging with us beyond talking and teasing with 'what if...' and 'maybe...'
Which leaves us with the status quo of small groups digging unofficially, and trails - outside of honey pot areas - that stay (for the most part) used by a relatively small number of 'in the know' riders.
I hope the two projects mentioned can gain some traction in 2024 and make some positive change. Round here, we'll deffo be doing what we can to support them.
The south east might not be considered a mountain bike mecca however where we have the north downs on the doorstep and a reasonable, if not sadly diminishing amount of countryside on the doorstep. In a 20 minutes cycle from my front door, I can be fields and trees and on my way to trails amid a myriad of bridleways, byways and footpaths. We are fortunate to also have a nice local community of trail builders who help to keep things interesting with trails and features. Then there is the winter and while some places weather this better, a lot of the local area becomes a swamp of clay and chalk.
Its at this time my local forty minute drive away FC trail centre (Bedgebury Forest) becomes golden. It gives me around 20k of fun trails that I can ride without too much fuss and minimal swampiness thanks to the abundance of type 2 that has been dropped there over recent years. There is a lot of criticism levelled at it being too this or not enough that but as a local attraction catering for all its good to have on the doorstep and saves me from the local swamp during the winter months. If people want super mega techy gnar it really isn't the place for them but suits my needs and large amount of other of other peoples too.
Parking is around £9 for the day however the amount of this that goes back into the trails is practically negligible with the majority going on the visitors centre and family attractions. I park outside and ride in.
Every six weeks or so I then jump into my T5 and drive to Wales for a couple or three days to get a break from the world of work and ride some more fun and interesting places where I can find all the super mega techy gnar I can handle. I will stay in a local BnB, Airbnb, camp site or sometimes tucked away in a quiet little spot where I can crash in the back of the wagon. I will go to the local shops, cafes and pubs and like to think that I'm investing some money, however little into the local communities. The trail centres give me the hub to aim for and from there I have gone on to explore the local areas either on bike, walking, running or out for a drive and have been doing this for about 10 years now. In that time I don't think I've ever paid more than £5 for parking.
I will always be grateful for the variety of places I have to ride locally and always indebted to the adventures and tranquillity that trail centres elsewhere provide.
It always amazes me the excuses people will find to avoid paying for parking.
The money might not directly go to the trails, but it will still contribute to the running of the entire site, and justify the existence of maintaining and building trails.
Strange how plenty of folk will happily pay upwards of £40 for a days riding at an uplift centre like BPW, but moan about paying just a few pounds to park and help maintain the trails at a non-uplift served trail centre. But are they the same people I wonder?
It’s just same old story of naieve ignorant people getting persuaded into something by a bunch of con artists
Now I intensely dislike Brexit, and it has made my life more difficult, but this sort of out of touch and elitist comment might makes you realise why people maybe voted for Brexit in the first place. If I had someone with a £4k+ bike and a £60k Transporter van calling me thick or ignorant because I was struggling to find well paid work in my ex-mining community then I might too have voted for Brexit just to spite them. I suspect that a lot of Brexit voting was just a big F-off from the forgotten working class communities to the people who thought they knew better than them, what was good for them. We should have listened to them and addressed their concerns somewhat I guess rather than assuming they were all just stupid and racist. But ah well, it's done now. An own goal to some extent!
Riding styles have changed also. There's definitely a move to harder steeper trails. So the original stuff looks tame.
There are new spots out there but without funding they just remain niche to those in the know.
How new is Golfie? It wasn't a thing I remember back in the day.
Thrunton? Used to have a nice xc loop but it's only more recently that it's become a destination you'd go back to.
Needs dedicated people to champion cause. Most of it was done by people with passion and energy. Doesn't stack up when you look at the business case on paper.
It's a massive undertaking to start from scratch. Didn't most of our current trail centres get built off the back of local riders building? The development came in making the trails more suited to large numbers of riders?
Personally I'd like to see the existing places maintained and added too. More realistic. Why certain venues haven't tried to build on the gravel hype is a mystery. Kielder is a few dozen wooden posts away from having 100s miles of gravel riding. Many other FC sites could also make this work. Potentially allowing other stuff to be supported.
Kielder is a [s]few dozen wooden posts[/s] map reading lesson away from having 100s miles of gravel riding.
How much hand-holding is really necessary? A small "inner" loop with arrows pointing away from it saying here be dragons should be sufficient 😀
The forestry are probably waiting for some smart person to pitch the idea to them. They'll then pinch it, put it through a mangle and come out with something else and then look to capitalise by limiting the solution to very select places.
I'm aware forestry land is now pretty much a tree factory as the recreation stuff has been left behind...I wonder if the government will ever relook at privatising the forestry - when they looked at that last time, suddenly forests were made available for recreation...might need a shake up like that again (although maybe not the same as privatisation is exactly what this government wants for everything).
How new is Golfie?
Not very. First downhill races were there in the 9os before they moved over to Traquair side.
How much hand-holding is really necessary? A small “inner” loop with arrows pointing away from it saying here be dragons should be sufficient 😀
I think that's part of the problem with Kielder. It's TOO big. There's a lot of potential there for things to go very wrong given the lack of mobile signal, the lack of any nearby amenities and the massive PITA it is to get to the place.