[Closed] Kids on BMX tracks without helmets (parents present)

It is Stockport.

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What did you expect....?

no, my local indoor place only has a rule for under 16s to have helemts but it doesn't really seem to be enforced. very few of the over 16s wear them. only the MTBers that go are the ones seem to do.

I agree with you that kids should really wear helmets to ride BMX tracks and the like. My lad always wears a helmet for cycling and scooting. Having said that, I really don't understand why people get so het up about other people's choice of safety gear. They're not your kids, it doesn't affect you if they're wearing a helmet or not. With the greatest possible respect, it's none of your business, really, is it?

Tut quietly, feel all superior for a moment, then move on.

Perhaps a bit different with kids as its not really them but the parents who made the decision and we may* i said *may* have some responsibility within society to step in and prooitect the kids from the daft decisions of their parents

Still at an actual park I would just explain to my kids why others had not and why they had to

For the record neither they nor I always wear helmets but we all would on a BMX track

It's not just you, you're not being too risk adverse.

Unfortunately there are a lot of people out there that see riding bikes as a kids thing and are either not understanding the risks, most likely through not riding, or are wilfully endangering their kids health.

Bruntwood is close to my heart - I'm the welfare officer of BPBMX, I'll declare that interest now - and I genuinely do worry about some of the kids riding out side of the club sessions.

I'm hoping that it'll come with education - a lot of people ride Bruntwood outside of the sessions with the full kit on - I'm one of them - and when kids see my lad riding in all the protective kit they get chatting to him, and I hope it will trickle upwards to the parents.

I don't actively approach parents, outside of the sessions, to say your kid should be wearing a helmet, even though the signs at the park entrance state that protective gear should be worn, however I will talk about the track and the sessions, pointing out that we have elite riders that train here all wearing the kit.

Worst offenders to me are parents pushing kids with stabilisers down the start hill - I do step in when this looks like it's about to happen! Stabilisers are the most scariest thing possible on the jumps.

What I fear is negative publicity surrounding an accident sways the council to close the facility - or make it club sessions only - at present I don't think this would happen - the article linked to above is interesting in that the parents seem to absolve themselves of all responsibility, IIRC there was a thread on here when it happened, the thread got shared around the club committee as the responses were heartening.

Anyway I hope your lad enjoyed the track and you'd both be welcome at a session. Feel like I'm advertising now that's two Bruntwood threads in close succession 🙂

Steve

What I fear is negative publicity surrounding an accident sways the council to close the facility - or make it club sessions only

Mintimperial I saw enough kids fall without protective helmets on to fear this ^

I don't know what the parents were/are thinking- its tarmac/very unforgiving surface. Are they too relaxed/don't realise?

To answer your question binners.... I saw two parents climb out of a car holding cigs in one hand then their two young children with the other free-hands.

So possibly ...that answers the question of the whole topic (and yours).

twistedpencil- This is the first time that we realised that Bruntwood exists. We will be back one evening this week 😀

Perhaps a bit different with kids as its not really them but the parents who made the decision and we may* i said *may* have some responsibility within society to step in and prooitect the kids from the daft decisions of their parents

Nah. Just think of it as natural selection in action.

What I fear is negative publicity surrounding an accident sways the council to close the facility

That's a much more compelling reason to do something about it though, I hadn't thought of that angle. Still, not sure I'd fancy wading in and lecturing some random about their kids' safety...

I never wore a helmet when i was a bmx-er unless it was in a park that had helmet rules. That was in the 8o's though when NO ONE wore helmets unless racing, and the 90s when NO ONE wore helmets unless racing, in contests or riding vert ramps.
I only started to wear one once i started riding a mountain bike and road bike.
BMX has changed a bit recently in that many more top riders visibly wear lids riding street, park and even trails in magazines and videos, partly as a result of some high profile head injuries (e.g. Mike Aitken).
Most race tracks/clubs will enforce helmets and long sleeves when club members are riding, but it is impossible to police when it's just the public there, the alternative being fencing off and only allowing access during official sessions.
I guess some parents just don't care or consider the risks as we would.

I generally think cycling helmets are a waste of time as the benefits are un-proven but would think it makes sense when messing around on a BMX track as more likely to fall off at some point and quite likely to scrape head.

The fact I messed around on BMX tracks for 6 years without head injury (apart from when a drunk bloke punched me in the head from the side!) may influence my opinion.

Three girls there, one on a carbon bmx, all had 'King hubs 😀

They came in a Haro team van so Im guessing they werent ATGN...

most likely through not riding

I think this says a lot about it - the parents haven't ridden it so have no idea of the risks.

I wear a helmet on the BMX track and only go slowly, luckily the one time I came off my head was protected, my butt however has never been the same since.

When it's club time at Royston you have to wear a lid which is fair enough in my view.

Well I wrote a helmet off on Bank Holiday Monday on the third corner at Bruntwood. I have a bruised ribcage and multicolour left hip, knee and ankle at present - head is perfectly fine.

Might be more that I'm travelling faster than my skill can handle at the present time, but new tracks are at a different level to those of the 80s and 90s.

The argument that no-one wore helmets back in the day is similar to the argument that no-one wore seatbelts back in the day. I'm talking about bmx track riding where the risk of a head injury IS significantly reduced by wearing a proper helmet - when you crash you're going to hit tarmac or well compacted stone.

Oh and Wednesday night is the week night first club session of the year 6-8pm 😉

What do you need etc to come along? Can my 5yr old come?

I generally think cycling helmets are a waste of time as the benefits are un-proven

Utter shit.

Utter shit.

OK. Show us the proof of the benefits. Proof, that is. Not hearsay, opinion or sales patter. I'm all ears.

I don't get the kids riding on their BMXs to the ramps down the roads** with no brakes and no lid.

** I live in the lumpy bit of West Yorkshire and we do gradient pretty well around here. Unsurprisingly like most places we also have lots of walls, kerbs, parked and moving cars.

Show us the proof of the benefits

They're not your kids, it doesn't affect you if they're wearing a helmet or not

So yes, helmets should be mandatory at facilities.

OK. Show us the proof of the benefits. Proof, that is. Not hearsay, opinion or sales patter. I'm all ears.

One friend with a broken skull, another who ended up in a life ending coma. Both from hitting the floor with their heads without helmets on when indestructible teenagers.

Depends if you're happy to walk away if someone elses child suffers a nasty head injury.

You're extrapolating a bit freely there. Obviously I'd not walk away if I saw an injured child in need of help, and it's pretty insulting to insinuate that I would, cheers.

http://www.bpbmxclub.org.uk/

Costs are pretty minimal and cover bike maintenance, running of the gate and first aid supplies(!)

For members long sleeve top tracky bottoms and trainers and we can supply the rest, helmets, pads, gloves and bike.

Non-members bring your own kit.

Membership can be signed up for at the session or through the website.

It's not been widely broadcast that we're back up this week, so hoping for a quite start. We have been known to run out of kit by 6:15 in the past, however we now have more kit and more members have there own bikes and kit etc.

Don't let this thread descend into a helmet debate - I think we can all agree on a national level BMX track lids are part of the kit.

^agree. Bruntwood is a different place to others that I've seen. I'll wear one - at least then the paramedics/nurses wont be saying I'm a tit behind my back or to my face.

I was at Bruntwood BMX track with my 7 year old yesterday. He was wearing a regular XC style helmet. When we got home I ordered him a full face. For the sake of not very many pounds it may save his chin and teeth.
Also, I fell off at the NCC indoor track a few months ago with sufficient force to break a helmet. I’m kind of glad that I was wearing it!

I was there without a bike. I ended up riding his down the ramp into the first two hills..

Heres a pic of him just landing a huge double at Bruntwood.....

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Think I'll also get him a full facer..

kerley - Member

I generally think cycling helmets are a waste of time as the benefits are un-proven

without his full face my son would have had a face plant. it protected him from facial damage on a slow crash

also the numerous people that my mum had to deal with as an A&E sister that had head injuries from not wearinga helmet.

We all never used to die horribly and didn't wear helmets, now we all do. Have the accident stats changed much ? I doubt it.

Poah - in that crash he would have just scruffed his face a bit, maybe a bust nose. I'd be more worried that the full facer would have snapped his neck. In fact maybe the weight of that helmet made his head swing in to the ground like it did...

I rode down the start ramp on a MX14 the other week - thought it would be fun, hitting the first jump gave me a new found respect of the little uns!

Our smallest bikes are micros - 18" I suspect your lad will be okay on one of them looking at the seat post extension, and you can try the helmets out to see which size fits - the shells all look the same size to me with padding making up the gaps for the smaller heads.

Some observations:

Prior to the (relatively) widespread adoption of helmets, there wasn't a huge number of horrific head injuries.
While riding without a helmet, I'm more careful. It's easy to see that the opposite might be true.
These graphs:
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[img] [/img]

and are those graphs related to road users who generally don't fall off or riders that do mountain biking/BMX?

FunkyDunc - Member

Poah - in that crash he would have just scruffed his face a bit, maybe a bust nose. I'd be more worried that the full facer would have snapped his neck. In fact maybe the weight of that helmet made his head swing in to the ground like it did...

he hit the ground flat, it wasn't drag due to the face guard.

and are those graphs related to road users who generally don't fall off or riders that do mountain biking/BMX?

They relate to all cyclists, and say something about the value of helmets.

Your comment did make me do a quick Google for BMX injury studies, which lead to this report from 1985: [url= http://europepmc.org/backend/ptpmcrender.fcgi?accid=PMC1777333&blobtype=pdf ]BMX compared with ordinary bicycle accidents[/url]: "Significantly more children on ordinary cycles (53%) had injuries above the neck than those on BMX cycles (31%)."

Role back to around 1991, I was at Bruntwood with my Dad and he overcooked it and took a tumble on the little kicker before the last berm and slid a couple of metres on his head/face. He wasn't going that fast, the helmet he was wearing at the time lost an inch off the side he slid on, he had microsurgery and iirc over 300 stitches in his face (you'd never know to look at him). Without the helmet on god only knows what would have happened.

People don't realise what a 'well fitted' helmet does, or the risks of not having one. Kids fall off, they're going to get cut and bruised... my kids have decent, fitted helmets just in case.

I generally think cycling helmets are a waste of time as the benefits are un-proven

Always wear a good full face lid on a BMX track. Always.

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I've seen a so called full face lid crumple. It was not a cheap lid either and was sold as a bmx lid. Personally I'd make sure it has the British ACU Gold stamp on it. Prices start pretty low these days for them so no excuse not too. And you don't want to lose teeth from a bike crash, trust me it bloody hurts and causes problems for years to come...

Wow and that data relates to riding BMX on a track how exactly?

Just what is that data trying to say? Could it be that prior to helmet wearing horrific head injuries weren't recorded as they were fatalities?

One of my biggest bugbears in life is data presented without a clear explanation as to what is being demonstrated.

Back to the OP the thread is about responsible parenting on a off-road facility which recommends users wear a helmet and the correct protective equipment. It's not about wearing a helmet riding on the roads, btw I'm against legislation for compulsory helmets as it may put people off riding bikes, however I will ride with a helmet for most of my journeys and my children will wear helmets too.

Start another thread! Ride BMX on a track wear a lid simples.

Edit: doesn't matter.

One of my biggest bugbears in life is data presented without a clear explanation as to what is being demonstrated.

And two of mine are helmet discussion threads and anecdotes about falling off with a helmet and how they'd be dead without it.

If BMX tracks are that dangerous, the kids should be safely tucked up at home in front of their X Box.

But a poor dataset is okay...

BMX tracks are not dangerous, neither are steep sided mountains.

Wearing appropriate equipment is just sensible I'd suggest. I'm probably on your side in the helmet debate - but really, go trackside and watch people ride BMX well, then come back and say you'd be happy to do that without a helmet.

Hora >>> at least then the paramedics/nurses wont be saying I'm a tit behind my back or to my face.

You sure? 😉

I miss TJ.

hora - Member

My son flipped off backwards and scarred his helmet but after abit of a cry he was back on and riding again.

With a new helmet on I take it?

miketually - Member

They relate to all cyclists, and say something about the value of helmets

number of times I've fallen on the road - 0
number of times I've fallen off road - plenty.

last time I thumped my head off a tree stump. Had I not been wearing a helmet I recon I'd be dead.

You wouldn't be.

Everytime someone starts a helmet thread a pixie dies

Still no proof to back up those that had a problem with my unproven comment (as expected because there isn't any)

You wear a helmet all you want (especially if it makes you feel happier) but don't pretend there is scientific evidence on them. And no, not wild correlations or anecdotal stuff.

Out of interest do you wear a helmet all the time just in case?

If the pavements are icy underfoot when walking do you put on a helmet?
If you are walking in a street with high level of traffic do you wear a helmet?
When driving in your car?

No need to answer as I know the answer already but something to think about for you.

miketually - Member

You wouldn't be.

well maybe not but I'd have been left will blabbering moron like you 😉

Downgrade yes. His helmet now has grooves down the side.

If we are not careful they will be on them skateboards again without helmets and full padding.

well maybe not but I'd have been left will blabbering moron like you

Nice.

Anecdotal, but I've cracked a bmx helmet and woke up in hospital 2 hours later after a fall from height and taking the entire blow to the side of my head. I cannot believe that the injury would not have been worse without it.

The comment about wearing a helmet when there's busy traffic, icy pavements etc... Doesn't make sense to me as the risk of injury is much much lower. I've been crossing roads for all my life without an injury so far and in 15 years of BMX I visited the hospital maybe a dozen times. Often the better you get, the bigger and more frequent the falls as the riding gets bigger/faster/more technical!

And a 30 second search returned this:

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/Mobile/article.aspx?articleid=412317

"Risk of head injury in helmeted vs unhelmeted cyclists adjusted for age and motor vehicle involvement indicate a protective effect of 69% to 74% for helmets for 3 different categories of head injury: any head injury (odds ratio [OR], 0.31; 95% confidence interval [CI], 0.26-0.37), brain injury (OR, 0.35; 95% CI, 0.25-0.48), or severe brain injury (OR, 0.26; 95% CI, 0.14-0,48). Adjusted ORs for each of 4 age groups (<6 y, 6-12 y, 13-19 y, and ?20 years) indicate similar levels of helmet protection by age (OR range, 0.27-0.40). "

Journal of the American Medical Association. 1996

the (regular) conversation with youngest antigee used to go like this:

her "none of the other riders wear helmets"

me "[i]some[/i] of the other riders don't wear helmets, do any of the really good riders wear helmets?"

her "I guess so"

me "that's because they've been around long enough and seen enough accidents they know it makes sense - if you want to learn new stuff you'll make mistakes"

her "but I don't need to wear it all the time"

me "remember billy's brother? - he wasn't wearing a helmet because he was about to go home and lost all his front teeth and broke his jaw"

her "ok this time"

Every time I bash my head on a low branch I thank my helmet.

Is it just the top of your helmet hitting the low branches?

What proportion of kids who were left alone with Jimmy Savile were made to wear helments when they roller-skated?

(And other vaguely irrelevant questions about risk and forseeability of harm)

🙂

Each to their own. I never even thought about wearing a bike helmet until I was 30.
Commuted to school and back in the early 70s and rode local 'trails' on whatever bike I had from earlier than that.
Toured bits of Wales and the Dales in my later teens , sans helmet.
However I got my first MTB in 1987 and finally bough a helmet in 1990.
Always considered it a good 'idea' and have always dragged it out of whatever corner of the garage or car boot it had rolled to and worn one ever since.
Four years ago, I was riding on damp woodwork on a trail,in Cannock at about 10mph. My front wheel lost grip and went left at what felt like about 700mph.
Having picked myself up and discovered I was surrounded by concerned looking mates, I was very confused, my head hurt and I was talking more bollocks than usual.
I gingerly rode back to the van and sat down to assess the situation: My head did indeed ache, as well as my thigh and shoulder. I took off my helmet and realised then that the outer shell was all that was holding the now smashed foam around the right temple together.
It is, indeed , a good idea.

We'll pop along tomorrow for 6pm. [u]WITH[/u] helmets. The helmet arguement: [b]I aint spoon feeding you for life if you crack your head on tarmac without a helmet. [/b]

If you've done all you can to mitigate risk- then thats unavoidable but not wearing one as its cool, 'its what we did in the 70's' (I remember car deaths were alot higher then no?) or because you can't be arsed then you are a fool. I used to ride down a huge hill in Huddersfield when I was 6yrs old without a helmet. Thank **** nothing happened to me. Thats chance/look nothing else.

*Devil's Advocate*

If you've done all you can to mitigate risk

Riding a bike on a BMX track isn't doing everything you can to mitigate risk. I mitigate risk by not getting sick air and doing 360s.

Responsible parents don't let their kids do tricks?

I aint spoon feeding you for life if you crack your head on tarmac without a helmet.

I aint spoon feeding you for life if you break your neck on tarmac getting radical amplitude.

The helmet arguement: I aint spoon feeding you for life if you crack your head on tarmac without a helmet.

So its not just as simple as saying a helmet reduces risk. It probably does, which is why I wear one - especially down at the BMX track (full face).

This isn't reallly a question of who we would like to suggest should wear helmets, more a question of who should have been compelled to wear a contraceptive.

I aint spoon feeding you for life if you break your neck on tarmac getting radical amplitude.

I think Nurses at hospital tend to roll their eyes don't they, 'ah heres another who should know better' 😆

Ah, eugenics

This isn't reallly a question of who we would like to suggest should wear helmets, more a question of who should have been compelled to wear a contraceptive.

It's the parents whose kids [i]aren't[/i] out on bikes, right?

It's the parents whose kids aren't out on bikes, right?

Or indeed anyone else whose parenting allows us to feel momentarily happy that we're doing it right, because they're doing it wrong.

🙂

On the whole I am pro helmets, but the arguments for helmet use normally ignore the very real facts that helmets increase the likelihood of hitting your head in the first place by a significant margin due to the increased size of your head+helmet - your awareness of you personal space means that in a crash you instinctively protect your head - with a helmet on you do not take into account the extra size of the helmet and so head you hit your head on the floor / tree branch etc.

Catching only the extra inch that wearing a helmet adds will be a very oblique, glancing blow at worst, where the damage is not even worth writing about compared to going OTB head first into the ground without one - something that will happen to nearly everyone at some point if they regularly push themselves riding difficult terrain. You're awareness is worth nothing when you have a split second to react

posted above specific to my kids and bmx and my input as a parent faced with the problem. For general helmet arguments - try and read all this from the land of compulsory helmets (where we currently live) over 7800 posts and not a smile in sight

[url] http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=31309 [/url]

Everytime someone starts a helmet thread a pixie dies

They should wear helmets then!!

Have you seen pixies ears? It's no wonder they don't wear helmets...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNoo9ZekHbs
Always remember to [s]wear a bike helmet[/s] look where you're going