[Closed] Jones Plus not right, what now?

I would go with a singular swift. by far the comfiest steel 29r I had ridden, prior to buying the jones.
the new one takes 3'' tyres I think. lovely comfy spring ride, with a 100mm air fork. perfect.

theres a fine line between bounce and squirm.

OP - my XL singular swift frame is for sale if you'd like it?

ssmith1979 - Member

OP - my XL singular swift frame is for sale if you'd like it?

if he isn't, I am.

Something from Surly?

I was going to suggest a Krampus. Mine is a real all day bike....or ECR if you want to attach many things...

Those are really quite diverse bikes.

If you've got the time, it sounds as though you'd benefit from a shop with a varied display and / or a demo day.

If you do enough riding, I'd also consider getting one bike for the simpler / family / winter rides (e.g. 29er rigid) and a second, more trail-orientated bike with bounce.

I haven't ridden one, but what about the Stooge? The whoel idea of the bike is to put you a bit more upright, more weight on feet, less on hands? Will take big squishy tyres up front, and pretty sure it'll accomodate a suspension fork if needed

I have an xl swift and was thinking of a jones+, the swift is lovely, rigid forks, jones bars. Deffo a keeper.

In the OP's circumstances I'd be looking at lightweight FS bikes - 100-120mm travel, 29" wheels.

I was in a similar situation , couldn't get on with the Jones Spaceframe, but did like the riding position etc.

Have eventually ended up with a Niner RIP9 , currently the frames are being discounted by Stif at about 50% off for the carbon frame and rear shock.

When I had a wrist issue I was using FS and Mary bars

I can't say that you have to have FS but my logic was that I just wanted to be certain it would be OK. Or that the bike I bought would have the biget chance of working

I think any medium travel trail bike will be fine. I think FS is great on rough but nontechnical terrain where you just want to sit and pedal.

I bought used as was 100% sure that I could ride even with FS. My logic was that if you resell a used bike the hit shouldn't be that large.

At the risk of stating the obvious get to some demo days

Niner SIR.9
Comfiest hardtail I've ever ridden, even with [i]normal[/i] wheels & tyres. I've been running it b+ / 29+., it's certainly comfy, but I'm going to try it b+ at the back, b+ up front with the Reba I've picked up for it.
Non oversized carbon bars, comfy grips & a 30deg stem go a long way to making it comfy. It's as much about getting the weight off your hands as inducing travel.

agreed on getting weight off your hands, part of why went with the jones. the issue is that anything above 10psi the lightly weighted front wheel 'bounces up' a lot and anything under 8 psi works well but the sidewall is essentially collapsed the whole time and cornering is a bit weird.

@Rockape63 this explains my (maybe misguided) "theres a fine line between bounce and squirm." statement.

the nature of the wrist pain is odd, it shows up a day or so later (arthiritis flare up) so knowing what exactly sets it off is hard to tell. right now i'm wondering if i should be gripping the bars tight with loose arms rather than getting flicked by the bars occasionally when the front bounces.

maybe i need to not ride for a month or more, get back to where i was before i stared riding the jones that didn't fit me great at the start: brake angles, stem length, bar height etc all changed.

I'm out in east Anglia where demo days are about as rare as mountains from what i can tell.
a local store will let me demo a SC high tower and thats probably a good step for me, i can make apples to apples comparison of the bike on the trails/paths/tracks/lanes i've been riding.

all the feedback and input on this forum is greatly appreciated.

I just want to get up early, rip the bike around the countryside for an hour or so and get on with the rest of my day.
nothing spectacular.

Andy at backcountrybiking in Aviemore is also off his Jones now due to arm pain. Loved riding it, but long-term discomfort rules it out for him. I guess what works for some just doesn't work for others.

Not the first time I've said this:)

Why not raise your bars?

Because of a fractured wrist from way back and because I wear specs, ive got the bars on my bike super high.

There's no law to say that there should be any pressure on your hands when cycling.

(Though there's probably a law, forbidding men over 35 from wearing Lycra)lol.

Delta stem riser?
North road/ Dutch handlebars?
Adjustable stem?

Fwiw, I'm riding a alloy cube 29er hardtail with the forks locked out most of the time. Conti 2.1 up front.
Though, the thudbuster seems to absorb a lot of the hits better than the fork.

@greatbeardedone

good point and agreed! coming from road (and a custom bike) i know all about people riding with bars too low and bikes cut to look aggressive

i've actually kept the steerer on the jones full length and the bars have been at a range of heights, at the top i feel like a elbows a bit low and wrist angle not great, where i have them (30mm spacers ontop of already high stack) i can hold the bars with little weight on them and a good angle down through the forearm/wrist to hand.

i was wondering if the fact i have them high with no weight was what was stopping me from damping this bouncing front.

to be clear its not big bumps and features that are the problem i see em, unweight and let the bike do its thing, its the barely visible undulations that at speed can suddenly force the front end up, i partly wonder if the rebound off the tyre squish is making it worse!

Would a Thudbuster be enough to

prevent be being thrown forward onto wrist.

I'm out in east Anglia where demo days are about as rare as mountains from what i can tell.

Where abouts are you. Rutland cycles is "East"ish. But not South East

They have demo bikes and hire bikes. I'd chat to them on the phone if they are nearby as I found them helpful.

i'm outside Cambridge where their bikes are primarily commuter bikes,
i think i need to get to their grafham water store,
was going to be one of my next steps, particularly if a FS bike was the right direction.

@normalman @flashes.

a Krampus is an option for me just like a Travers russTi would be. problem is it's not that clear what the front suspension options are. I don't want Lauf, if i'm going suspension i want the best damping and curve possible.

as for a Krampus, who knows when they'll be available again...

There's one in the Classifieds right now.

as for a Krampus, who knows when they'll be available again.

April/May from what I've seen.

I'm in your area and looking at something similar for a play bike. Looking at the Stooge. New frame will be out in April

i'm outside Cambridge where their bikes are primarily commuter bikes,
i think i need to get to their grafham water store,
was going to be one of my next steps, particularly if a FS bike was the right direction

The Rutland water store might be bigger, ask them. You can make a day out of it. The ride round the lake has variety of surfaces (non challenging) but make a scenic 17 or 23 miles. Lots for a family to do

I found the Krampus a bit stiff & unforgiving, I only had if for a day though, thrashing it around Cannock. I was sold on the plus thing though.

Shorter stem and a layback post will take weight off the wrists while keeping the reach the same.
But it will affect handling.
Cheep enough to try and see?

the issue is that anything above 10psi the lightly weighted front wheel 'bounces up' a lot and anything under 8 psi works well but the sidewall is essentially collapsed the whole time and cornering is a bit weird.

At the risk of stating the obvious, why not just ride at 9psi then? It's not that hard to keep a consistent tyre pressure with a decent digital gauge and a lot cheaper than a new bike.

Failing that have you considered full-fat. It's probably not going to work when things get properly bumpy, but if you mainly want to get rid of trail chatter then nothing works as well as a big low pressure tyre.

the issue is that anything above 10psi the lightly weighted front wheel 'bounces up' a lot and anything under 8 psi works well but the sidewall is essentially collapsed the whole time and cornering is a bit weird.

At the risk of stating the obvious, why not just ride at 9psi then? It's not that hard to keep a consistent tyre pressure with a decent digital gauge and a lot cheaper than a new bike.

Failing that have you considered full-fat. It's probably not going to work when things get properly bumpy, but if you mainly want to get rid of trail chatter then nothing works as well as a big low pressure tyre.

When I've put rigid forks on a HT it seems to unsettle it a lot more than just at the front.

I'd suggest a HT with forks to start.

I've stopped riding rigid in the past due to wrist pain (vaguely arthritic). Traced it down to a too aggressive position. My new rigid SS is slightly less aggressive and works well.

There's one in the Classifieds right now.

Have you tried ergon type grips?
They've been a revelation for me.

haven't ridden one, but what about the Stooge? The whoel idea of the bike is to put you a bit more upright, more weight on feet, less on hands? Will take big squishy tyres up front, and pretty sure it'll accomodate a suspension fork if needed

I wonder where Stooge got that idea from, here's a hint- Jones 😉

Agreed, I think his approach shows a lot of understanding about how bikes are ridden

For what it's worth I think jones has got very close to what seems to be his goal. An all round bike for a load of different uses.
Whether that's achievable is a bigger question.

One of the reasons replacing it is a challenge

I know a fair amount about fit and have an industrial design background, everything he says makes sense and delivers.

I'm also not naive enough to know about all round tools not being scalpels.

I'm just going to need wrist fusion surgery to ride it hard off road.
At the end of the day I didn't buy the bike as a gateway to owning a full sus bike and if I need full on suspension to ride 10 miles of Greenlane at high speed then it feels like I just shouldn't be off road at all.

I haven't ridden a Jones but I have owned a Krampus. Apart from freeing up some cash what benefit over the Jones do people envisage from an equally rigid steel 29+ bike?

I hope you find a solution that works for you. It sounds like you are having to consider a 'trial and error' approach to find a solution, rather than being able to take advantage of expert opinion based on medical expertise and/or the personal experience of others with similar conditions. I presume you have already trawled the internet to try to find similar experiences to yours and medical experts in this field with a sports injury bias.

I think a lot of athletes use weight training to build and strengthen muscles in order to take some of the stress on vulnerable body parts and thus prevent and reduce the risk of injury, but I imagine that it might not be possible to do that for the wrist, which has little in the way of muscle to begin with.

I take it you have also investigated and experimented with different handlebars. Personally, I've always thought that one of the best positions for long term comfort is provided by the classic position of riding on the hoods of conventional drop bars, where the hand is almost gripping the hood at a similar angle to holding a pistol, with the resulting force of any road shocks transmitted straight up the arms (hence the guidance that the elbows should always be slightly bent and not locked, so that they absorb the impact). It strikes me that the hand position of the traditional north road bar, which Epicyclo uses and has mentioned in a few threads, offers a similar position.

@slowster

unfortunately it is a bit of trial and error, but I'm talking to store owners, the people who built the bike, people at jones and using this forum, trying to build up an image.
finding a medic who knows exactly whats going on is tougher, they basically say, live your life, you'll need to get it fused sometime anyway. They don't care that i skateboard pools still.

on handlebars: it was the design of the swept Jones bars that led me to the Jones bike designs, the swept bars work pretty well for me from what i can tell and like road bars have a bunch of hand positions which keeps things varied. i quickly put a flat bar on as an experiment and it hurt badly the next day...

funny you should mention road bike hoods position , I jumped back on the road bike, all be it on the rollers (not trainer) and as you point out hoods are probably the best position for me, no wonder i managed years of racing on them with the bust wrist, occasionally the peloton crosses tracks or doesn't call out a pothole and i could get hurt a bit but it didn't knock me for weeks like this.

whats bizarre is that this squishy bike that never hurt me 'in the moment' leads to pain days later, the road bike never did. the computer does...

i also forgot how 'off my hands' the road bike actually is.

@johnny storm. from a fit/posture position they're pretty different bikes, the handlebar stack is miles higher and the long wheelbase changes feel a lot.
The jones is ideal for 6ft middle aged people who used to be much gnarlier!

Thinking of how my two bikes behave, the hardtail is much harder on the hands than the full-sus, even though both are running near identical forks (140 and 150mm Pikes). I suspect a short travel 29er full-sus with relatively short reach (you may need to size down) and high bars could be your best bet, especially with big and possibly plus tubeless tyres.

Also, improved core strength may take some load off your hands.

finding a medic who knows exactly whats going on is tougher, they basically say, live your life, you'll need to get it fused sometime anyway.

I've heard it said the NHS is a National Sickness Service, not a National Health Service, i.e. they often don't have the resources, knowledge, skills and sufficient determination to properly cure chronic conditions, and consider that if you are fit enough to go back to work, that's the best they can do.

From the little that I've read, for sports injuries and injuries that affect sporting performance there can sometimes be a big difference between the treatment offered (and the resulting patient outcomes) by the average run of mill consultant vs. the specialists to whom the top athletes go when they have a problem.

I can't help wondering if there are any sports where similar injuries to yours are not unknown and would be potentially career ending for a highly paid professional competitor (tennis, boxing, motorbike trials?). If so, I would expect there might be a very small number of doctors who would specialise in that field and would offer better treatment than normally provided. It might be worth trying to speak to the doctor employed by a national sporting body, such as the Lawn Tennis Association, since they are likely to be the people who will know of any specialists in this field. Obviously, if there are such medical specialists who do offer better treatment and outcomes than a typical NHS consultant, they will doubtless charge at the top end of private healthcare treatment prices.

funny you should mention road bike hoods position , I jumped back on the road bike, all be it on the rollers (not trainer) and as you point out hoods are probably the best position for me, no wonder i managed years of racing on them with the bust wrist, occasionally the peloton crosses tracks or doesn't call out a pothole and i could get hurt a bit but it didn't knock me for weeks like this.

Maybe it would be worth trying a pair of the north road style bars, even if only as part of a process of elimination to confirm that different handlebars are not the answer. Judging by the images of Charlie the Bikemonger's website page for handlebars [url= http://www.charliethebikemonger.com/handle-bars-219-c.asp ]here[/url] the north road bars don't have a full 90 degree sweep, but it is greater than the sweep of the Jones bars. On One have some more extreme bars, such as the Snorky and Mungo, but I think they are road lever diameter.

Actually I think [url= http://www.londonbicycleworkshop.com/3371/products/one23-bull-25-4-handlebar.aspx ]these[/url] are the particular bars Epicyclo uses. I don't know how they compare with the north road bars for drop and sweep.

Appreciate your dilemma. Besides the severed cruciate (whole different issue), I've got a kind of reverse trigger finger which I've put down to years of guitar and rigid bike riding. In the absence of any NHS solution so far I've kind of accepted that the Jones is the most comfortable rigid I've tried and when I can't take it any more I'll think about a hard tail and then a full sus in increasing degrees of decrepitude.

Getting older and everything hurts now. The day will come when I'm dribbling and barely able to shamble out of bed. When this day comes I'll be riding a full sus e-bike.

lexhorton, this is my right wrist, which is fused in the joint. the flex comes from the small bones in my hand.
I get on fine on the jones plus with jones bars.
I cant see how changing the bike would make it any better. changing you hand position may.

[url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/265/31483240481_f4b452ac9c_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/265/31483240481_f4b452ac9c_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/PY4Qx4 ]2016-12-12_03-09-25[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/91703444@N06/ ]20ston[/url], on Flickr

A 4.8" tyre on a 70mm rim, you you could run that at roughly 7psi........

whilst i injured it on a french mountainside.
i only found out years later what it was when i lived in america, they MRI'd it straight away and then i knew what it was. an MRI on the NHS would take a while but in america you're paying. Where I like the NHS is the American Surgeon was very very quick to want to operate, it's a booking and revenue for him after all. so i got a second opinion from someone who wasnt about to get a gig out of it, he said, it probably won't work and then you'll end up with a string of operations and a totally wrecked wrist. enjoy 10 years of it working OK technology might have come on a bit by then.

back in the UK i've paid out of pocket to see a surgeon (could have seen on the NHS) who gave me his take which was: none of those smaller Ops are an option and they wouldn't work anyway. Come back and see me on the NHS (i don't have private) when you're so f*cked you can't sleep then i'll deal with it.

Whats more my neighbour's a hardcore doctor and his take on orthopaedics is the same, don't do anything til you really absolutely have to cos it seldom really works when it's difficult. and dead scaphoids are a minefield..

After 10 years in the states I have a very different perspective on the NHS now I'm back in britain. American medical appears awesome but you're buying insurance (minimum of 1000 a month if you're lucky) expecting service and everyone's in business to make it all happen (and get paid). somewhere between the 2 systems is probably right.

all advice from all on here really appreciated, nice bunch of people on here when you consider the rest of the internet.

I need to rest this thing now for a month or so and see where i am.
Whilst its downright excessive the Jones is a really great bike to ride from the village into town to do some errands or stick my daughter on the back and go tow path riding.

@ton

thanks for your points on my various threads, your situation with the fused wrist has given me a lot of hope for my future and kept me hopeful about the jones despite the occasional wobble.

your situation makes me feel like i'll end up better off once this wrist gets screwed plated and fused together.

did your wrist fine naturally over time or have you had it done after an injury?

lexhorton, I broke the right wrist playing rugby 30 years ago. the left wrist had tendon damage a couple of times.
they just got worse with arthritis over the years. my wright one got to the stage where I couldn't lift a kettle or open a door handle. I had it fused 10 years ago. I was back riding the bike after a month. but wore a brace for about a year.
when I ride with it now it hurts if I don't move it around on the bars. I also have to take a fair bit of ibuprofen nowadays.

@Lexhorton

Pedal Addiction in Norwich are Stanton dealers, they have built a few + bikes, and Stanton showed a 29+ bike recently on their FB page that they are doing soon.

As someone who lives in North West Norfolk and not far from the beaches, where "normal" MTb'ing isn't so good, i have tried a number of bikes to satisfy my bike-itch and have had reconstructive surgery to the tendons in my right hand, so am sensitive to long days in wrong positon and what i have settled on is a Salsa Beargrease fat bike with what will have 2/3 sets of wheels. Gives me a proper 26 X 4.0 fat bike for riding on the beaches, can swap wheels out for 29 x 3.0 "semi-fat" for longer days off road and can also fit a set of normal 29er wheels to, so a really adaptable bike and no heavier for frame/forks than any of those you've suggested.

My bikepacking/ distance bike is a Salsa Fargo, as i find the drop bars with a flare place my wrist in a really good position also.

@ton, thanks for the info! i'd wanted to ask you about that before but was worried it was a bit personal. we're in pretty similar situation, I'm nowhere near having problems with kettles and doors but theres been times turning the key and pulling the handbrake in the defender have caused a bit of pain. i also get the feeling that the situation will accelerate fast. I've only just started using ibuprofen regularly or wearing a plant for anything but skateboarding.

i wear support on the bike, i found wrist bracing put pain elsewhere, do you have a brace you could recommend.

after a 2 months of riding on the Jones i find the hand positions and the fit extremely natural which i'm very pleased about.

hopefully this stage i'm going through is going to calm down a bit and i just bust it up being a silly boy with a new bike who thought he was being careful.

@scud

thanks for the heads up on norwich. thats a good idea on the beargrease. makes me reconsider the fat front on the jones if i can find a fat 27.5 tyre like a barbegazi or similar so it has a radius close to a plus tyre.
on the 29ers i'd been looking at running some fast oversize tyres like Big Apples or Super Motos for when i'm mostly on roads

the 661 brace that chain reaction sell is as good as anything more expensive. I wore a aircast for a while but it was a bit overkill.

A surly 4.8 Bud will give you more or less 29+ diameter and rolls really well, considering! You could try a 100mm rim and run very low pressure, something like 5or 6 psi. Carbon fat bike rims are amazingly light too.

My fat front Spaceframe is an amazingly capable and fun bike.

thanks ton
been using the 661 brace thats got a thumb loop and strips on the back.
on chain reaction theres a 'wrap' i'll try that too.

just bought a pretty pricey orthopaedic support for every day use.

@futon

thanks for the steer on that wheel

do you have any opinion on the 'bounce' i'm experiencing?
the sensation that after compression the wheel is being launched back up again. makes for a less sharp impact than the original bump but maybe larger one?

i'm still trying to grasp my technique with this type of bike, whether its a featherlight grip on the bars or something firmer with a loose arm

thanks

alex

reluctantly gave up on the jones plus.
bought a stache with front Suspension.
worked great, wrist problems gone.

the jones is on the 'for sale' forum now

Alex, like i said mate, if it dont work, sell it on and try something else. life is too short to cycle round on a bike that dont suit.

also like to add, i was talking to a bloke who bought a jones plus about the same time has me. he too is selling his. lives in the south lakes and decided it dont suit the stuff he rides. going back to a short travel susser.

as you know, i replaced my jones with a much larger framed surly ogre, and so far the surly feels a far nicer bike to ride.
on the jones even the jones loop bars felt odd, but on a xxl ogre they feel in the perfect place.

i felt a bit disappointed selling the jones after wanting one for so long. and i suppose i bought into the hype a bit. experience has taught me not to do so yet again...... 😆