[Closed] I’ve gone from a coil to an air fork..

What fork?
What set up, including how many tokens are you running.

Is it broken in yet?
Tokens?
A lot of what you describe sounds like a correct adjustment of the damper would help.

Tokens is my bet.

It’s a Lyrik RC2 debonair (?) 170mm.

What are tokens?? 😂

There probably aren't any at 170mm but tokens are volume reducers added into the air spring under the top cap to make the fork ramp up more. Shorter the travel, the more tokens a lyric would have. Worth checking though.

Thank you all, I have a check for these token things and also try and tune the damping.

What would breaking the fork in involve? I brayed them all over hamsterley forest today so hopefully that will have helped the process.

Check if there's any oil in it, then lube the seals with fork oil and ride/setup damping they wont feel as nice as coils ever.

RC2 Lyrik is a very good fork, so definitely tune it first. If all else fails you could get a Push coil conversion!

30% sag and lots of tokens may mean you are ploughing into a wall of progression at the end of the stroke.

Air isn't as supportive in the mid stroke, maybe try adding some air and reducing damping?

Thank you for the continued responses. I've got some homework to do here mind! Think I've been spoiled by a really nice coil lyrik that was pretty much fit and forget (I never played with any of settings post TF service on that fork)... TBH I don't even know what most of them do!

I'll try adding extra air and tuning damping first. It feels counter-intuitive adding more air as I want it to be softer?

That Push coil conversion looks the business but £400 is bonkers! It also seems like it is DIY job that they send you the bits in the post for.. has anyone done one themselves?

Cheers

I did a coil conversion myself with the TF tuned's own kit to my Pike. It really is very easy and the result, though i'm sure not as nice as a proper coil fork, is a noticeable improvement from the previous Pike air spring.

Personally if I were you and you didn't want to drop £400 on a coil conversion kit, i'd sell your fork while its still new and fresh, get a cheaper 2nd hand fork ideally one in need of a service, and spend the difference on a coil conversion kit.

I never serviced my Pike in 3 years of use all year round and when I stripped it to do the coil conversion and also stripped the damper to replace the seal head thing that fails on the earlier Pikes the internals of the fork were clean as a whistle so I question the frequency of servicing recommended by the manufacturers full stop.

TBH I don’t even know what most of them do!

I think a read of the manual may be advisable then. This may give a 'base setting' to start with: https://trailhead.rockshox.com/en/
Do a basic set-up, ride. Make changes to one thing at a time, ride. Repeat until your happy with the way the fork works.
It can be a slow process but it's worth spending a bit of time getting to know how the dials can change the way the fork works.

Thanks WS - so does the PUSH conversion not get you a 'true' coil fork at the end of it? more of a hybrid?

Thanks Stevied - I'll download that trailhead app and then hit the local trails I think.

Cheers

“I’m running 30% sag and everything else about halfway house to begin with. Is it normal for an air fork to be like this?”

Open the LSC and HSC fully (anti-clockwise). Try varying sag between 20 and 30%. Obviously adjust rebound as needed when you change the pressure.

If you bottom out harshly add HSC. If it’s diving too much when you pump or brake hard then add LSC.

I have a 2019 Lyrik RC2 29 160mm on my bike. It’s a really good fork! But you’re probably running too much damping and too little air pressure right now.

Make sure the rebound is fast enough that you don’t get stuck deep in the travel.

The 2019 RC2 fork is the best single crown fork i've ever used. However the high speed compression is VERY dampened and is a likely culprit for it stiffening up past half way. As a freerider I have it wound all the way out (off) and have only bottomed out once when overshooting a 45 foot double to flat!

As for tokens, this is a similar story. You probably want none or 1 at most to remove a lot of the ramp up and in return you get more mid stroke support as a result of having a more linear progression through the travel. I personally use 1 token.

I run an Ohlins coil shock in the rear of my Capra tuned for me by TFtuned and it doesn't outperform the Lyrik, they match up great. The coil at the rear is the best thing i ever did to my capra by the way since its an extremely progressive linkage.

Thank you for the very detailed responses both. Lots for me to think about there. I was feeling a bit annoyed after my first ride yesterday but seems like I can improve things a lot without shelling out on new bits. Glad to hear the very positive feedback about this particular fork! Sounds like a bit of user error on my part..

Interesting to hear about the Ohlins rear shock on your Capra Liam, my mate has the coil Ohlins forks on his bike and they are very tasty (and expensive) indeed!

Just checked the tech specs on the Sram website and my fork apparently has 1 (of a maximum of 4) tokens installed from factory. That will be getting whipped oot sharpish tonight before getting stuck into the other settings! Thanks all

That should be a pretty good fork. As said above, turn all the compression damping dials to full open and check how many tokens are in the air side. I’m about 12.5 stone (or maybe slightly more at the moment) and I’m running one token on a 170mm rct3 Lyrik with debonair air shaft (should be the same as yours).

I haven’t got adjustable high speed damping, only lsc, which is currently just a few clicks from full open. I can’t remember my air pressure but it’s at 25% sag. Rebound set so it doesn’t top out : rebound harshly but it’s more on the lively return side.

I use all the travel bar the last 1/2 inch I’d say - which seems about right. It’s oretty plush with none of the harsh ramp up you’re describing.

Tokens are easy to check - let all the air out of the fork with the valve, then unscrew that top cap and see if there are any grey plastic spacer looking things screwed into the underneath of the top cap. If more than 1 I’d take them out for now. If none then I think compression damping settings are your issue.

Coincidentally I listened to the vitalmtb podcast by the guy from push industries yesterday - it was really good and well worth a listen. Interestingly he was of the view that the best thing most people could do with their fork is a lower leg service. He also said tip the bike vertically before every ride in order to circulate the lube. Mine live standing up anyway so all good..

If you take the single token out I’d start again by opening all the compression damping up and setting your air pressure for 25% save in the standing ‘attack’ position on your bike.

Then set rebound to suit this and go for a ride and see how it is.

High speed bottoming out - add hsc one click at a time. Low speed diving - add lsc one click at a time.

30% sag on a 170mm Lyrik is likely too much. IME 25% (as a maximum) and closer to 20% has worked best on Lyriks. This is a coil vs air thing. Because the top out into the ramp of the negative spring is non-linear you don't need as much sag for an air spring as you would with a coil. The big negative air chamber on the Debonair spring is (in effect) a pneumatic top out.

If you're finding a sequence of bumps makes it feel locked solid, it is packing - rebound is too slow: more air pressure; faster rebound. Keep going with faster rebound until it spits traction mid corner (scarily) and then add back one or two clicks.

You can afford for the rebound to be on the quick side and the spring will guarantee you're not getting harsh top outs. Tokens can fine tune this but the least number of tokens that soften the top out is the correct number of tokens usually. Much more than this and you get nasty rampy behaviour deep in the travel.

After that you're juggling LSC and HSC as your main tune-to-taste settings.

IME 25% (as a maximum) and closer to 20% has worked best on Lyriks.

This. It's taken ages to retrain my brain to this. Also, the charger seems happier higher in the first half of the stroke.

30% is a starting point. I usually run less. On my 66s if I set it to 30% sag there's nearly no support and it blows through travel to the point where it ramps right up. So all you end up doing is riding on essentially the bump stops. Putting more air in it actually makes it work much better. I run about 10% sag.

Something not quite right here still.. there was indeed 1 token in there which was quickly ejected.. air spring was then pumped up to give me 20% sag (I'm 14.5 stone so this was relatively high pressure). Rebound set fast (2 clicks off fastest) and LSC and HSC off completely..

Still getting big ramp up halfway through stroke.. it’s a bit better but not night and day.. I just can’t see how I’ll ever get close to using full travel even with a massive hit. Thinking LBS is next stop unless my expectations are unreasonably high.. halfway thru stroke I can feel handlebars flexing when doing a squidge test!

What pressure are you running?

For reference, I'm 15stone and running 90psi, 1/2 a token, HSC full open, LSC 3 from open, rebound 12 from open.

Wondering if you have a load of air trapped in the lowers.

I've got 100psi in there to get the sag down to 20%.. no tokens and damping fully open..

I'm a bit lost as to what to try next. Going to pop into the LBS on me lunch break and squidge some lyriks for a reference point! Next stop is to actually take the bike to a place locally that does fork servicing - see what they think.

How do you get air trapped in the lowers? and more importantly how do you get it untrapped?

Thanks

Actually come to think of it when releasing all of the air the stanchions didn't "suck down" fully into the lowers.. in fact maybe only halfway.. is that normal? Sorry total air fork noob here!

I'd skip the lbs and go the the suspension place.

100psi sounds quite high.

You can get a build up of pressure in the lowers, small cable tie between the stanchion and main seals to release it.

You could also have a blocked transfer port, so your negative volume is not filling correctly

Thanks Sir HC, yes something definitely not adding up here. Trip to the suspension place it is.

For the cable tie trick, is this a fix or something that will need to be done again if the root cause is not addressed. Do I do it with all of the air out of the fork?

Cheers

Cable tie trick is usually the forks have been built fully compressed, or there is an air leak from the air spring lower seal (bleeding from the negative chamber)

It seems odd what you’re describing. My 170mm Lyrik with one token is plush as anything and uses the majority of its travel. Think it’s setup with about 25% sag - I want to say it’s somewhere like 70-80psi - but then I’m a couple of stone lighter so that seems to make sense.

I wonder if the fork wasn’t cycled as it first had pressure added and that’s caused an imbalance.

Slow the rebound down?
On all the demo bikes I've had RS forks on, I've needed to run slower rebound for the forks not to feel really firm in the lower half of travel.

Less sag also won't help with the stiffness... it will make them worse. The points above about not needing as much sag on these forks is no doubt true, but it doesn't address the problems you seem to be having.

lightfighter762

Subscriber

I had a 180 lyrik rct3 and just did not like the way it felt when things got steep. Even with tokens. I just installed a fox 36 with the push acs conversion and tbh should of done it at the start of the season. The lyrik just felt numb.

Not fancy just putting a coil into the Lyrik?

Surprised that neither Fox or Rockshox haven't reintroduced a good coil fork into their line ups, particularly given the popularity of enduro.

Thank you for the continued detailed responses all. I spoke to the tech at the local RS servicing place and he was really helpful. He said there used to be an issue where the fork manufacturer put too much grease on the valve (groove?) that equalised pressure between the two chambers in the lower.. however he was of the view that this was all sorted and shouldn't be happening anymore.

He reckons the fork was potentially pressurised without being properly cycled.. apparently there is a notch that achieves equilibrium that only works when you cycle them (more than 75% travel) with a small amount of pressure (25psi). I'm going to try that tonight as they were pressurised out the box.

He also said to check if I can compress completely with no air pressure in the fork. If it stops anywhere before leaving 10mm of stanchion showing there is definitely something wrong and I should take them in.

Cheers

Deffo Goosed these like.. with zero psi there’s about 70mm of stanchion showing and if I compress to full travel they just come back up. Tried the cycling thing above but done nowt..

Off to the service centre tomorrow to drop em off. Gonna have a whinge to YT about this and the dodgy dropper/front wheel. See if I can get a little compo

I'll also add that our new Lyric 170 RC2 2019 fork broke on about fifth ride.

The top damper seal had blown off (fnarr) and caused lack of rebound, harsh travel and sucking down (second fnaar). Sent back and it got new seals and full service. Likely better than a rushed factory set up.

with zero psi there’s about 70mm of stanchion showing and if I compress to full travel they just come back up.

That sounds pretty normal. "Zero" is "zero on the gauge relative to atmosphere" so actually you have atmospheric pressure in there at the point you vent the schrader valve. When you compress them you'll end up with a ~2.5:1 compression ratio on the positive spring. i.e. 2.5x atmospheric pressure absolute (~22 psi gauge) and the negative will be fighting it too.

You went from 30% sag to 20% sag in your test rides and didn't like either. That may be a pretty big jump and sag is not a precise measure. I'd say keep trying. These aren't coil forks where the change in a coil is a jump from one linear spring rate to the next one up (both of which might be suboptimal). 5 psi is a significant change and if you've just changed them by 30 psi you've had a lot of opportunity to miss the sweet spot.

You're getting all sorts of advice about tokens. Honestly, leave them with the factory token installed until you have a feel for what the fork is really up to.

FWIW, on a 160 Lyrik with the latest air spring I'm running ~95psi and am 86kg riding weight.

Having an expert give them a once over sounds like a good idea to eliminate a genuine dud fork from being the issue.

100 PSI is almost certainly too high on this fork. I'm 14 stone kitted up and ran the previous Lyrik at 100 PSI and previous fox 36 at 100 PSI. This model i'm at barely over 80 and it's VERY supportive.

I like the idea of a supportive fork. It should have a speaker that says stuff like "Good job! You really nailed that jump!"

Verdict is in. Shop just called me and said there were two things going on:

1. Air spring side. Build up of pressure in the negative chamber that was not able to be resolved without the lowers coming off. Now fixed. Could have been like that from factory or at least YT (as already pressurised) or I could have done it when I was fannying about with them, releasing pressure, cycling fork etc etc. but considering they felt horrible on my first ride before I messed about with them, I'm inclined to think the former.

2. Damper side. When I explained I wasn't getting full travel they looked at the damper side and said there was too much oil in there and something to do with a bladder..

Also lack of lubrication somewhere which can be common on new forks but wouldn't show itself for a month or so as everything is shiny/new/smooth. This has apparently been sorted too.

Anyway, apparently they're back together and feeling plush and I've been told that a test ride off a 3-4ft drop was achieving nearly full travel with a lighter rider than me... so hoping this is it sorted! Bit annoyed I've basically had to pay for someone to look at them out the box so probably worth a whinge to YT but not expecting much/anything.

Thanks for the responses and info everyone. I'm hoping when I pick it up it feels like a different fork!

Cheers