[Closed] It is NORMAL for a MudHugger to DAMAGE forks! so say they!

Jeebus, was it flapping about? Looks like there was a load of movement in it, Mucky Nutz use the same loops and I've never had that happening around the fork leg on 3 different setups

I tried to speak to the guy at FtBill. he was rude and dismissive so 3 of us moved on and opted not to give them our money. Now am quite glad we did. Sorry OP, that's just not good enough really, I'd be livid.

Looks like lots of good fine grinding mud. Use frame tape.

Ouch.

I'm not especially surprised, I had some damage to the underside of the arch with mine - nothing that bad but enough to make me take it off.

Lots of heli-tape next time....

It was as firmly attached as I could manage, and I didn't notice any flapping.

I think that additional weight and size of the mudhugger over a mucky nutz must cause it to wobble more, and consequently cause the damage, not something I had previously considered....

They supplied the velcro, but no tape to protect the fork (or instructions to do so for that matter)

Its way past paint only damage and into the metal.

seriously not suitable for its application, as the mudhugger damages the fork

I'm not sure i'm surprised. I have seen a bottle wear through a frame and a seat bag wear through a carbon seatpost in one ride.

Anything that gets strapped to a bike will move and probably take the paint with it. Either wrap it with frame tape - or care less. I do a bit of both.

I've had similar with an RRP.

Now always put some electrical tape on the fork first. Little use now, sorry.

Damn that's quite bad! It happened to my forks too with the Mucky Nutz, but nowhere near as bad as that, I reduced it wetting the velco and stretching it around to keep it really tight. Although I thought it was pretty obvious it would dull the paintwork, just like a crud catcher does and eventually take off the paint after a few years, not a few days.

I will be applying helitape to the area before fitting on a new bike. I replaced the Velcro with cable ties which reduced the guard movement.

The response looks perfectly reasonable to me. I don't know what else you could expect from contact between paint and plastic when you throw some fine, wet grit into the equation. Helitape is obviously the way to go.

I guess there's an argument that the fitting instructions should include this as a recommendation for those that can't see the inevitable outcome.

Does it state anywhere on the packaging or instructions that it came with that is may cause damage to paint, etc?

Must a admit I was surprised at the amount of paint it had removed. I’d say that goes well beyond superficial scratches. How many days did it take to do that?

You will get the same result with all the leading anti spray systems including RRP, mucky nutz etc,

Bullcrap! I've got both of these on my bikes and have had no issues whatsoever.
Unless it was really flapping around, and I guess you would have noticed this if it was, this seems to be down to bad design. The RRP guard is neoprene, so flexible, and the Mucky Nutz is thinner plastic and so will be more flexible, and move less. I suspect the problem here is the larger size, weight, and relative inflexibility of this design.

Wouldn't expect that level of damage after one days riding.
Having said that though, looking at the photos, it looks like you've got the velcro on with the hard face against the forks which could go some way to explaining this. I know the instructions on the mucky nutz guards specifically say to put the velcro on with the soft side against the forks/frame to prevent rubbing like this.

I've flat spotted frames with cables, chewed through swing arms with tyres, cut groves in frames and forks with brake hoses. You won't see me in the fs section very often but I do tape anything that is in contact with anything that moves.

Had no packaging or instructions included, occurred in one day.

the most concerning damage is from the plastic mudhugger against the top of the lowers by the seal, no strapping there.

the damage to the arch may have been exacerbated by having the "hard" side of the velcro against the fork, but the lowers had the velcro "soft" side round.

Looks like lots of good fine grinding mud. Use frame tape.

Mud, perfect for destroying almost anything.

It does seem like a lot of damage for a short time. I'd have helicopter taped it myself without a doubt but I suppose what you'd say is, if it's so essential and they're saying that amount of damage is to be expected, it falls on them to recommend it or maybe even provide tape in the kit. But certainly to make you aware.

I will agree the damage looks bad but can see how it would happen.

I have one, fitted it nice and tight with biketape behind and its been on since last winter.

I have zero damage on the lower fork legs where I taped beneath, no marking where the Velcro goes but I do have rub marks inside the arch but only 10mm square (not bare metal either)

It must have been loose and flapping about something rotten to rub / grind that much.

Edit - As above - Maybe they should recommend bike-taping ALL contact or potential contact points before fitting to prevent this and instruct people that the guard should be properly tight.

That's quite a bit of wear. I prefer the Mucky Nutz to the Mud Hugger for the front. I consider the Mucky Nutz to more be there to protect the fork seals than anything else.

Overall I'm sort of with the Mud Hugger guy. Attach anything to your bike in those conditions without helitape and it's going to be an issue.

All these guards cause damage unless tape applied first!

I've used mudhuggers on my bike as well, haven't had any marks at all on the forks, but the rear has left 5 cable tie marks on each side of my swingarm. I just put it down to my mistake for not sufficiently taping it up.

Just noticed, you used the Velcro on the fork legs and the arch, as soon as I fitted it I binned the Velcro on the lowers and used zipties.

Mine is solid as a rock really and the Velcro allowed it to flap about - not the best application for it.

Had no packaging or instructions included, occurred in one day.

In that case, I would argue that you expected there to be minor superficial marks from use. Like most have said, it's pretty obvious you'll get some rubbing, but your photos are dreadful for 1 day's use. If this level of damage is what they expect they have a responsibility to inform you.

Presumably you're after a respray? Get a quote and send it to them. (Of course, if you bought it from a shop and not direct, then that's who you need to talk to.)

In hindsight, I can see how it happened.
But as I have never had the problem before with the RRP or Mucky Nutz

I destroyed a mucky nutz, by not taking it off when putting the bike in the boot of the car, so this seemed better as it was more solid. however I still bent it putting it into the car (bent out again), and wanted to use the Velcro so I could take it off and on.

Looking at the forum title (SHOUT) your looking for support & outrage so you can push them into a settlement, thankfully this ain't the US & most ppl have enough common sense to see this 'issue' for what it is..

Blimey that's a lot of wear. Not used a mud hugger but several muckynutz are doing ok on my bikes.

Obviously a guard causing that much damage is not normal but if it was wobbling about whilst covered in mud then that kind of thing is to be expected TBH. Whether the wobbling is down to crap design or user error at setup is something I'll leave to more knowledgeable people to decide.

Thats a lot of damage but looking at the guard it looks quite stiff compared to a mucky nuts so probably amplifies any small movements.

One saving grace is that it appears to only be cosmetic damage, however based on this its a product I won't be buying.

I had a mucky nuts and didn't like the way it was easily bent out of shape, does anyone do a flexible version made out of stiffened sillicone?

I don't think, or expect I will get anything off them.

Yes I would like a bit of support/validation of my outrage.

Some people would expect some damage so would tape the fork first, either from previous experience, even experience by proxy of damage.

I might have expected some marking, and wouldnt have been bothered by a bit, but not to this extent.
Some people do share my shock at the level of damage, so I am not alone.

If nothing else, I hope this post/thread informs others to either use another product, or tape up first.

Where the straps attach I would expect some wear so as said above taping is a good idea but where the plastic has rubbed next to the seals that looks like a design floor to me.

Overall I'm sort of with the Mud Hugger guy. Attach anything to your bike in those conditions without helitape and it's going to be an issue.

Hmmm, I've had one on my bike for about 8 months and only took it off the other day as I was pissing about with the bike, there's a few scratches in the lacquer but nothing like that!

That's with a winter of peak district abuse behind it, fox paint quite soft?

I was thinking of getting one of them, not now. If he knew it would happen does it not state on it or any paperwork to protect the fork accordingly.

Fortunately I have caught it before too long, and will be just touching up with some hammerite or something, and then going back to the RRP or mucky nutz.

I ride the dark peak all the time wet winters, wet summers, I haven't had this before, this was one wet ride, not in the dark peak.

if my usual cleaning maintenance had been followed this could have been weeks or months and really bad.

Guess I wont be selling on the forks ever though.

If the instructions don't at least advise helitape, then I think that's a very poor response from MudHugger.

A novice biker isn't to know how destructive wet mud can be, and that should be the test I feel. The instructions for my Crud Road Racers even mentioned it, and they're for road bikes.

If - being none the wiser - a mudguard had ground into the metal on my forks like that I would be raging. Especially after a response that amounts to 'You should have known.'.

For what it's worth I run a muckynutz guard from time to time. Never taped the fork because the guard is so light. No problems with fork damage.

My mate has had similar on his rear seatstays with a mudhugger rear guard, and me the same with a Zefal rear guard despite application of Helitape - it just wears straight through. Yes, a bit surprising and unexpected, but next winter i'll apply something a bit more robust than helitape or put a few layers of helitape on.

Rockplough - Member
If the instructions don't at least advise helitape, then I think that's a very poor response from MudHugger.

A novice biker isn't to know how destructive wet mud can be, and that should be the test I feel. The instructions for my Crud Road Racers even mentioned it, and they're for road bikes.

If - being none the wiser - a mudguard had ground into the metal on my forks like that I would be raging. Especially after a response that amounts to 'You should have known.'.

For what it's worth I run a muckynutz guard from time to time. Never taped the fork because the guard is so light. No problems with fork damage.

+1.

Why do they provide frame tape for the rear guard, but not the front if they know that it's going to be an issue? They should be providing heli tape, or warning of the risks at the very least and recommending that you provide your own protection.

Not that it helps you now, but I wonder if some cut up inner tube strategically placed could prevent this? It's quite good at preventing things moving as well as providing a damping effect to vibrations.

I've used a Mucky Nutz for over a year now and apart from a bit of dulling where the paint has gained lots of very fine scratches, it is fine.

Does it state anywhere on the packaging or instructions that it came with that is may cause damage to paint, etc?

Should it really need such a warning?

you've bought a product to place in close rubbing contact with your precious frame/fork specifically when you intend to ride it in muddy, gritty, wet conditions...

No doubt you've seen the kind of damage cable outers/brake lines can do to frame finishes, most people worried about the paint on their dandyhorse buy protective patches/use a bit of tape to prevent such damage, this is basically the same thing...

Should shimano be putting labels on every inch of gear outer warning users that SP51 might scuff their paint?

cookeaa - Member

Should shimano be putting labels on every inch of gear outer warning users that SP51 might scuff their paint?

To be fair, it's pretty ridiculous that there are no warnings about cable rub, the first time most owners find out about it is when it damages their frame.

But this seems to be a lot worse so I'm not sure it's a good comparison.

Well on the plus side its not the stanchions

And tbh knowing how bad cable rub can be in that kind of grit I'm not that surprised

I certainly wouldn't be getting all shitty about it with mucky nuts, lesson learned and move on

It must be me but I don't really see that as damage to the forks. It's the paint rubbing off, there appears to be no structural or internal damage. That's what happens with mountain bikes. If the stantions were damaged like that then I would be seriously upset, but that's not the case.

I would paint or tape it over if it upsets you, but to me, that's what happens when you attach things to your bike and ride them in the mud, as the letter suggests. A bit of black electrical tape round the legs for a quick fix.

No protective tape....OP's error IMO

traildog - Member

It must be me but I don't really see that as damage to the forks. It's the paint rubbing off, there appears to be no structural or internal damage. That's what happens with mountain bikes. If the stantions were damaged like that then I would be seriously upset, but that's not the case.

I would paint or tape it over if it upsets you, but to me, that's what happens when you attach things to your bike and ride them in the mud, as the letter suggests. A bit of black electrical tape round the legs for a quick fix.

So if you fitted a bike rack to your car and it took all the paint off, would that be damage or OK by you?

A few scratches are one thing, that's pretty much devalued an epensive set of forks.

I do agree though, you should have taped them up AND mudhugger should pop a little note inside telling people to do so.

To be fair, it's pretty ridiculous that there are no warnings about cable rub, the first time most owners find out about it is when it damages their frame.

But this seems to be a lot worse so I'm not sure it's a good comparison.

Really? Loose fitted parts in close proximity with mud, water and grit all over them, rattling about, and the possibility of rubbing/wear was news to you?

Come on how much hand holding and bright yellow warning stickers do people really need?

I don't much like the phrase "Common Sense" but if ever it applied.... Well you get my drift.

Not the OP's fault IMO.
They should give a warning of what can happen to unprotected contact areas with that kind of product. People that have [b]never[/b] tried clip on stuff ,would have [b]no idea[/b] how fast trapped grit can remove paint.
If he had been riding around Kielder his forks would be in half 😉

I tried a brand of clip on guards with a road bike .
They had rubber contact points , and as it was on a road bike I thought they would be ok.
Lesson learned, road grit,water and rubber moving (just a tiny amount) = perfect paint remover.

Hmmm. Shirley product testing would have highlighted an issue with paint wear. You could go to trading standards and claim unfit for porpoise etc...

That said i feel for you OP. what should have been a product to protect you and your bike has caused damage.

Has anyone mentioned that velcro has a soft side and an abrasive side (a bit like me)?
Never put the abrasive side in contact with something you don't want rubbed. (Like skin, or er, paint).
Too late now though eh.

cookeaa - Member

I don't much like the phrase "Common Sense" but if ever it applied.... Well you get my drift.

Common sense to me says a mountain bike product, fitted as designed, shouldn't cause that sort of damage on the first ride. But if it does, and the company knows it happens, and considers it completely normal then they bloody well should be telling people, and providing them with whatever's needed to stop it.

I would have helicopter taped... But even then I wouldn't have expected this sort of damage after a single ride.

Certainly won't be buying one as they seem to be selling a product that they know will damage bikes, and being ****s about it.

So if you fitted a bike rack to your car and it took all the paint off, would that be damage or OK by you?

Well, one I don't have a car and two I don't believe that to be a fair comparison at all. If I had a land rover which I regularly took off road and fitted a bike rack to, and it scratched (not took all the paint off as the photos don't show that) then I would not be that concerned.

The earlier comment about Shimano putting a warning that cable outers might rub your paint off is spot on.
What did OP really think was going to happen? Its going to have to be pretty securely bolted on if its not going to move about when clods of mud and water spraying over it.
Common sense is surely lacking here?

A bit of paint rub, fine, I would have learned my lesson.

This has rubbed a significant amount of the metal away next to the stanchion seals.

Perhaps it should have been obvious to me, but having used similar products in exactly the same way, and experienced NO problems and after weeks of riding there was no damage at all, so it wasn't obvious that this product would be significantly worse to me.

So, I didn't expect significant erosion of the metal on my forks, when using a product as designed, in the manner expected.

Its the significant amount of damage caused in a short period that is the issue, not a bit of paint rub

I suspect that people suggesting, what did you expect haven't looked at the extent of the damage, so no hard feelings hey!

I've had frame wear from battery packs in winter riding, so anything which attaches to the bike nowadays, which moves about, gets some electrical tape first, or lizard skin patches on contact points. No issues since.

I can't see what mud hugger can do apart from provide a roll of tape with their product?

Wisdom can be defined as 'applied knowledge or awareness'.

OP, you now have the opportunity to be a little wiser.

Live and learn, and don't put your hands in the fire.

cruzcampo - Member

I can't see what mud hugger can do apart from provide a roll of tape with their product?

They could do that. Or they could just warn customers that their product will damage their bike. In fact, better still, do that before they buy the mudguard.

None of this stuff is very difficult, they've admitted they're aware of the problem so why not tell people before it's a problem, rather than after? That's really all it would take.

@northwind, concur at the very least a disclaimer on the packaging!

Bloody hell, thats pretty substantial wear. Never had that sort of issue with my bender fender.

Northwind, I have found you to be a mine of useful information and counsel on this forum, but please, we've got enough dumbing down in society nowadays, so let's not follow the examples of objects in this mirror type bollox, it will destroy common sense and the gift of free will, schools of hard knocks and learning from our mistakes.

It really is common sense to think about how a product, to be used in primarily wet and muddy conditions, will probably react to and with the parts of a bike, whether it be front or rear, when it is attached to it.

Nanny state, divide and conquer yadda yadda.... The OP ( and clearly others here) have just learnt that not everything will be spoon fed beforehand to warn us of all the multi-various pitfalls that may await.

slackalice - Member

It really is common sense to think about how a product, to be used in primarily wet and muddy conditions, will probably react to and with the parts of a bike, whether it be front or rear, when it is attached to it.

Exactly- and Mudhugger should have done just that. It's not up to customers to make a product work properly. It's also common sense that a product shouldn't damage your bike when used as directed.

A bit of wear is reasonable but you can't look at that amount of damage after 1 ride and think "Yeah, that was totally predictable". That's the equivalent of years of cable rub.

The earlier comment about Shimano putting a warning that cable outers might rub your paint off is spot on.
What did OP really think was going to happen? Its going to have to be pretty securely bolted on if its not going to move about when clods of mud and water spraying over it.
Common sense is surely lacking here?

POSTED 3 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

Is this a mountain bike we're talking about? The thing that most of us throw down rocky and muddy trails, crash a lot, and wear stuff out on?

Or is it one of those Audi roof-top accessories?

Stick some electrical tape over the wear (then forget about it when you advertise the forks in the classifieds), stick the guard back on, and carry on riding 😈

I don't agree, so let's just agree to disagree shall we please?

I cable tied my one on and no marks on my forks.

^^^^ This

Got mudhuggers on 3 bikes - no problems to report on any of them.

Although - I did do the heat-gun trick that they suggest on the fitting instructions to help shape the guards better to the contours of the fork arch (mainly to help improve tyre clearance though)

Ran a Mudhugger all last winter, nowhere near damage like that over 4 months. But I do benefit from a unique gift called 'foresight'. I know many other adults who share a similar gift, most of whom can read, write and bathe themselves too!

Cosmetic damage to mountain bike component subjected to continually being sprayed with grit and water caused by user error.

Simples

What's a mudguard?

Perhaps the OP didnt fit the mudhugger as securely as he thought?

IMO OP is in the right here. Yes, cables and guards can rub but that is a ****load of damage for one ride - and the fact that MudHugger don't include tape or even instructions to "use some tape" is pretty shit.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a product [i]whose entire purpose is to protect you from mud[/i] to be designed such that it doesn't wear away your frame when used in muddy conditions.

After a particularly muddy ride round Afan, my shorts started to wear the paint off my top tube. Who should I complain to? Troy lee? Santa Cruz? Or Afan for providing said dirt?

Them's the breaks.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but a mud guard is there to stop you getting crap in your face. Which means said crap is going to collect where it gets stopped. It's very unfortunate what's happened but I don't see why they are at fault.

Remember the fad of shock and fork boots? That was short lived when everyone realised they cause more damage than good.

Remember the fad of shock and fork boots? That was short lived when everyone realised they cause more damage than good.

Not mudhuggers fault but they should put a warning in the fitting instructions (although by the sound of it the op didn't get instructions with his). I can understand the op's annoyance and i doubt he'll be buying anything else from mudhugger therefore mudhugger have lost a future customer which, for the sake of a warning in the instructions, doesnt seem like good business sense

yes, no instructions provided, and I just followed what I had done previously with a mucky nutz, resulting in no damage at all.

elliot, I suspect that the there was no damage to your bike, but only some minor paint scuffing, so not really the same.

if you had worn through half of the tube thickness of the top tube, I would imagine you would be pretty annoyed at santa cruz

Got to echo a lot of the comments here and say the manufacturers response is pretty reasonable (but yes I would be devastated if they were my forks, naturally).

Frame manufacturers do not say to helitape the inside of chainstays otherwise muddy tyres will remove paint. Outer cables do not come with warnings that they may eat your frame. Lights do not come with a warning that battery packs velcroed to your stem will remove paint. Garmin do not cover their mounts with warnings that the O-rings and mount will eventually make your shiney stem look all tatty. Cranks inevitable lose the paint from heel rub... you could go on forever. It is not the manufacturers place to second guess any of this and they don't.

It is common sense unfortunately a point of contact between any two objects with the conditions we have in the UK will remove paint. I'm afraid it is a hard lesson to learn but is why heli-tape is so well used here on our little Isle

Just to add as well that I've damaged a frame to the extent of the OP's forks in "just one muddy ride" too so do empathize, but unfortunately learned the hard way that the mud we have here is brutal unless you prepare surface correctly. I don't blame anyone but myself and have learned

elliot, I suspect that the there was no damage to your bike, but only some minor paint scuffing, so not really the same.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but from the look of your photos that's what has happened to your forks, albeit in areas to the metal. Excessive wear, yes. But 'DAMAGE' as you call it? Do your forks still work on the bumpy stuff, can you still ride your bike? Thought so.

if you had worn through half of the tube thickness of the top tube, I would imagine you would be pretty annoyed at santa cruz

So you're implying from that I should have contacted the people whom the wear was inflicted upon? Surely on that assumption you should be contacting Fox for shitty paint?

I'm playing devils advocate, I understand your annoyance but I don't really see what you can gain here, apart from blowing steam, the circumstances were such that it is an unfortunate case of wear and tear. Crap happens and I feel sometimes we're all too quick to point the finger at someone rather than accept it for what it is.

I had wear from a velcro rrp guard. Never take my mudhugger off to look.