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... Because it's the only way Marin are going to sell any of these.
Is it an e-bike?
Not an eBike.
https://www.marinbikes.com/gb/bikes/family/mount-vision
Well I am very keen to try one of these of the Polygon's with the suspension design, meant to be very very good
Nope.
They really hit every branch on the way out of the ugly tree.
shame Marin have released this as they have some great bikes in their line up.
shame Marin have released this as they have some great bikes in their line up.
One of the reasons I'm keen to try it, to make something that ugly you better have a good reason. If it rides well do you really care what it looks like?
It’s the same as last year’s with a different paintjob, isn’t it?
That means they must’ve sold some of the mingers!
That means they must’ve resprayed some of the mingers!
FTFY
it might not be an eBike, but i'm pretty sure it's a urghBike.....
Ugl-eeeebike
I've had loads of Marins over the years, Really got a soft spot for them.
However, that is ****ing hideous.
Good God that's bloody awful
I had a 2010 Attack trail which was one of the best bikes I’ve ever ridden. It was however bloody ugly, that Mount Vision is in a whole different league though.
As above, would like to try it, just wouldn’t like to look at it.
Tried the equally eye-poppingly ugly Marin Wolf Ridge when that came out at a demo day. Based on that, I wouldn't expect wonders from this one..
Oh. I see. Er. Goodbye.
I remember thinking the orange Marin attack trail 2008 was a design classic like the original iPod, I seriously hankered after that bike and it got rave reviews. Just googling it now it just looks like an orange prototype with its hanging swingarm
If it rides well do you really care what it looks like?
In short, yes. I’m very shallow though.
Did marin find a long lost brother and allow him to design the next bike?
I can only assume that Marin had a load of 2006 attack trail swing arms lying about...
Yeah, so, ummm, let's put the looks aside so we can concentrate on how ****ing rad Vero Sandler is on it!
https://m.pinkbike.com/news/video-veronique-sandler-and-matt-jones-ride-the-new-marin-mount-vision.html
Frickin pinned!
Fair enough, it's absolutely gopping. But, it's not peak until someone fits one of these....
Matt Jones got his.
Let's face it, Marin bikes have always been that ugly fat lass that you darent go near unless you've downed atleast 2bottles of white lightening
The only view that matters on a bike is the view over the handlebars.
As someone else said,I have a huge soft spot for Marins too.
I also loved the looks of the QUAD/2 bikes too! Yes, really!
These new ones are really hard to like though. Purely based on aesthetics however, which is a bit of a shallow way of rating a bike!
It kinda reminds me of the Buick GNX - ugly as hell, but you have to admire the function over form philosophy.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a23739443/buick-regal-grand-national-gnx-history/
I'm still thinking the paint job is not helping.
Let’s face it, Marin bikes have always been that ugly fat lass that you darent go near unless you’ve downed atleast 2bottles of white lightening
Careful now, you could offend people with comments like that!
That angle in the video thumbnail... are we [i]sure[/i] this isn't an eBike?? Enough space for the weekly shop around that BB let alone a battery and motor gubbins!
(from PB comments)
The only view that matters on a bike is the view over the handlebars.
Generally I would agree but with this I think I would get annoyed out the questions/insults about having an e-bike.
It's definitely different - but you know what, I actually quite like it.
Watching the Matt Jones video I know he's paid to say it's awesome - but looking at the way it pedals it does actually look pretty good.
I think it's fair to say the volume of them sold in the UK will be counted on two hands, and that will probably include the freebies they have given out to their riders.
Even if you exclude the astronomical pricing. Holy sh*t!
I doubt if they halved the price they would sell.
Plenty of great riding bikes out there that don't look like a total dogs dinner, most of which are cheaper too. That's an impressive fail on Marins part.
tbh its not nice but it does mean that they are trying new things. this is good. whether you want it (like the switch infinity or trust fork) is a different matter
I've been wanting to try one of these for a while and you know what... I quite like the weird looks 🙂
The only view that matters on a bike is the view over the handlebars.
Nice thought, rarely the case.
That black one actually looks better as the ugliness isn't so highly concentrated on the frame.
Plus it looks like a prop from a sci-fi film rather than a commercially available mountain bike.
The only view that matters on a bike is the view over the handlebars.
Don't agree at all, I prefer to ride a bike I like the look of and care about details that make it look nicer (shape of hubs, cranks etc,.). It is part of cycling to me.
I think it actually looks quite "purposeful"
It's certainly no Alchemist...
[url= 
]What The Mount Vision looks like now will have you reaching for the tissues![/url]
I really like how it looks. Its different.
The front half just looks like an ebike, so a bit ugly but fairly normal. The back is a bit strange though.
Heard some good things about the actual performance. I like that some companies are trying different things, if all bikes looked the same it'd be a bit boring.
I’ve heard mixed things about how it rides and the overwhelming thing when descending is that it has an absolute ton of pedal kickback (due to the anti-squat increasing massively deeper into the travel when you’re in higher gears).
It’s an odd design because it does exactly the opposite of what loads of well regarded short-link bikes do, which is to have high anti-squat around sag for good pedalling but lower anti-squat deeper in the travel to reduce kickback.
Who pedals deep into the travel when descending?
“Who pedals deep into the travel when descending?”
No-one I’d hope! But that doesn’t stop the suspension pulling on the top half of the chain and causing your pedals to push back against your feet.
Super V Carbon anyone?
No-one I’d hope! But that doesn’t stop the suspension pulling on the top half of the chain and causing your pedals to push back against your feet.
while the rear wheel is turning forwards and the cassette has a freewheel?
while the rear wheel is turning forwards and the cassette has a freewheel?
Yes. Suspension can cycle up and down generating chain growth a lot quicker than the spinning wheel can accommodate. The freewheel is irrelevant, it allows slip in the opposite direction (if it couldn't exert tension on the top part of the chain, you wouldn't be able to pedal around).
The effect was very noticeable on some older DH frames with high single pivots.
simon_g
Super V Carbon anyone?
Yes please. Back then, Cannondale showing how to make a bike that looks different, but also cool. Pretty much the opposite to Marin.
Yes. Suspension can cycle up and down generating chain growth a lot quicker than the spinning wheel can accommodate. The freewheel is irrelevant, it allows slip in the opposite direction (if it couldn’t exert tension on the top part of the chain, you wouldn’t be able to pedal around).
Except any hit that causes the suspension to reach deep into the travel is going to be hard enough to make that top portion of chain lose tension.
The freewheel helps it stay loose on the rebound.
there is no noticable pedal kickback freewheeling with an adult stood on the pedals.
suspension action will be slightly compromised but the pedals will stay exactly where the rider wants them unless a he rides DH sat down no feet on the pedals
The effect was very noticeable on some older DH frames with high single pivots.
No it wasn't.
for one thing old DH bikes had very little mech tension and when it got rough the chain would slap like ****. ie. not under tension at all while freewheeling.
high single pivots were awful to pedal and shit under rear brake drag but your pedals would not kickback while weighted and freewheeling at all.
I can only assume you mistook the poor suspension performance while braking and the horrible feeling through the pedals that it gave for what occurred while freewheeling.
#Brakemuchbro?
“Except any hit that causes the suspension to reach deep into the travel is going to be hard enough to make that top portion of chain lose tension.”
This seems the wrong way around to me? If the line between effective pivot point and rear axle crosses the chain, then using any travel will pull on the chain. The more travel you use, the more the chain will be pulled, unless the effective pivot point drops lower.
Salesmen: "We're having trouble selling these expensive ebikes because they look too different from normal bikes."
Everyone else: "OK, we'll build more compact motors, integrate the battery with the frame and make the ebikes more like normal bikes."
Marin: "Hold my beer and watch this..."
This seems the wrong way around to me?
do you even ride bro?
rear brake dragging/locked the chain will do as you imagine.
Freewheeling it won't.
Except any hit that causes the suspension to reach deep into the travel is going to be hard enough to make that top portion of chain lose tension.
You're getting this the wrong way round. When the pivot is above the chain line, the hub moves backwards relative to the top of the chainring as the suspension compresses. This has the effect of lengthening the chain between the back wheel and the chainring. This engages the freewheel, so the tension acts to rotate the crank backwards. This is kickback. It is more pronounced at lower wheel speed, as at higher wheel speed the spinning back wheel can partly compensate for the chain growth.
The effect was very noticeable on some older DH frames with high single pivots.No it wasn’t.
It just was though. My old Orange used to kick back a lot. It was more noticeable in lower speed hits, like hard exits from chutes. I used to do lots of chainless runs at my local track (dunkeld), the suspension was much smoother through the rougher sections than when it had a chain, as there was no kickback.
#Brakemuchbro?
Actually I do, 'cos I'm not a particularly talented bike rider. Thankfully I'm a much better engineer than I am bike rider.
Thankfully I’m a much better engineer than I am bike rider.
Is that not a given on STW 🙂 .... assuming we count IT as a form of engineering
You’re getting this the wrong way round.
Nope.
You're forgetting what actually happens when a rear bike wheel is hit hard.
you're also forgeting what actually happens at the cassette while the wheel is turning forwards.
and you don't seem to have even considered what the combination of the two means will happen when a 12st rider is stood on the pedals holding the cranks level underfoot.
in all those slow speed chutes you mention. You had to be braking. how else can a chute be ridden at slow speed?
as I said. rear suspension performance will be compromised. But rearward crank rotation (pedal kickback) will not happen while the pedals are weighted.
Nope.
I can only assume you're trolling now, so I'm out.
Chain growth is a well understood phenomenon. If you've got access to some modelling software, you could mock up something to demonstrate the concept in 5 or 10 minutes. If you don't, some bits of string, a bit of wood, and a few nails will suffice.
Brake squat is a different issue.
I understand chain growth perfectly well. the thing is with a rider freewheeling your concept doesn't work the way you think it does in real life. no amount of nails and string is going to to replicate the real life situation.
re-read my last post. I've edited it slightly for it to hopefully be easier for an "engineer" understand.
But rearward crank rotation (pedal kickback) will not happen while the pedals are weighted.
Will the rider not feel the kickback then, because it no longer exists if they are stood on the pedals?
The rider will feel a number of forces. (including AS forces)
The cranks won't rotate backwards though.
Which is what "pedal kickback" means.
clue: it's measured in degrees
The cranks won’t rotate backwards though.
Which is what “pedal kickback” means.
They will, but the rider stops them from doing so. The feeling the rider gets is from pedal kickback.
no. it's from Anti-Squat
and as I explained. it is minimised by the rear wheel rotating and the cassette freewheeling.
The faster the rotation the more it will be minimised.
That Deviate video shows a pinion system with a tight (singlespeed) chain. We are discussing a derailleur geared system with a far longer, looser flappier chain which when freewheeling minimises the effect you're trying to show.
it is minimised by the rear wheel rotating and the cassette freewheeling.
That has nothing to do with it? The distance between the crank and hub axles is increasing, as the slack in the chain is underneath the chainring, taking up that slack feeds the chain anticlockwise round the ring, combined with the hub getting further away is what moves the pedals backwards, which is then stopped by the riders feet.
The Deviate video shows a pinion system with a tight (singlespeed) chain.
It has a sprung tensioner behind the crank
What about a mechanism to completely disengage the free hub in both directions on demand (i.e when your on a super steep descent requiring no peddling) and so improve the suspension performance. A switch on the handle bars maybe - or an accelerometer controlled servo that recognizes when your pointing steeply down and hitting bumps. It could be an electromagnet that temporarily pulls in the pawls in the hub - or a more simple mechanical device in the BB...
Blue sky thinking while doing boring stuff at work
You're wrong.
the riders feet holds the crank position.
the wheel rotating forwards allows the cassette to take up the rotation (that would have caused an unweighted crank to "pedal kick" backwards). the freewheel allows it to lose chain tension again on extension. hence the chain slap you see from the top part of the chain.
The bigger the hit the more the top portion of chain bounces.
if what you are saying were true this would not happen
What about a mechanism to completely disengage the free hub in both directions on demand (i.e when your on a super steep descent requiring no peddling) and so improve the suspension performance. A switch on the handle bars maybe – or an accelerometer controlled servo that recognizes when your pointing steeply down and hitting bumps. It could be an electromagnet that temporarily pulls in the pawls in the hub – or a more simple mechanical device in the BB…
IIRC Canyon (maybe YT) already worked on it (well, the disengaging freehub anyway)
“and as I explained. it is minimised by the rear wheel rotating and the cassette freewheeling.
The faster the rotation the more it will be minimised.”
Exactly. But it’s still there. And when it’s happening it restricts the suspension movement, it feeds back into the rider’s feet and it increases the chance of losing the chain.
We agree chief. (I think you knew that already)
One thing I omitted here is. We don't ever freewheel over rough undulating ground with our crank arms in a fixed rotational position anyway. We pivot the pedals/cranks and the bike around that axis constantly.
if pedal kickback (sus compression, chain induced rearward crank rotation) was a real issue when freewheeling you would struggle hit a big dirtjump take off on any full sus without rider stability being thrown off.
Who'd've thought a thread about an ugly bike could've turned out so..... [i]boring[/i]?! 😆
For pedal kickback (as opposed to some other effect you might notice) to happen when freewheeling the wheel would have to move backwards (relative to bb) at the same speed as your cog's teeth would be moving forwards to pedal you at the speed you are rolling.
Imagine dropping 2m to flat. Your terminal velocity is given by the square root of (2 x g x d) where g is the acceleration due to gravity, d is the height you have fallen. So say root 40, lets round up to 7 m/s. Your rear wheel may be momentarily kicked upwards at that speed until your suspension starts to slow it down.
Your wheel will only move away from the bb by a proportion of that, say 20% max? so 1.4 m/s. That chain speed would move you forwards at 1.4 x wheel diameter/cog diameter. Lets say wheel diameter is 29, cog diameter is 2 (both in inches, an 11t cog which would be the worst case, all approximate). So that ratio is 15 ish, giving us a bike speed below which you will feel kickback of 21 m/s or 50 odd km/h.
I appear to have demonstrated that you will feel increasing kickback as speeds drop below 50 km/h when in the 11t cog on a 29er and hucking from 2m. Tbh I would be bloody amazed if I haven't gone wrong there somewhere, anyone want to review my assumptions and calculations? In particular, some evidence of actual wheel vertical speeds when hitting bumps would be good.
You need to work out how far the pedal moves as well as how fast.
If it moves at 21 m/s for 1mm than I wouldn't loose any sleep.
Who’d’ve thought a thread about an ugly bike could’ve turned out so….. boring?!
I know, think I'll see if I can get a test ride and see what I think, could probably get a couple of laps in before this lot stop arguing.
You need to work out how far the pedal moves as well as how fast.
...
Well no I don't really. Do you?