[Closed] Is there any such thing as a waterproof jacket?

Yes.

£60 in decathlon.

It must be you. I've had lots.

How are you washing?
Are you sure it's not sweat?

“How are you washing?
Are you sure it’s not sweat?”

Exactly!

“I don’t want to have to keep re proofing it every five minutes though.”

On most waterproofs the water repellency on the outer fabric has no bearing on the waterproofness - but once the outer fabric is soaked the membrane or coating can no longer “breathe” so you get condensation on the inside.

The most effective and durable water repellent coatings use some extremely nasty toxic and non-biodegradable chemicals, which come off as the jacket is worn, and pollute everywhere we go. The alternatives like Nikwax TX Direct still work well but require more frequent cleaning and reproofing.

Definitely not sweat.
The rain just soaks in and doesn't bead at all.
Try not to wash it apart from when I try to re proof it with Nikwax. This £60 one at Decathlon.... Which one is it?

“The rain just soaks in and doesn’t bead at all.”

It’s still waterproof when the rain has totally wetted out the outer fabric.

If you wash it more frequently (with liquid soap or tech wash, not detergent) then it’ll keep beading for longer. But when it stops beading it’ll still be waterproof, just not as breathable.

Depending on the material ironing can sometimes make the outlet layer bead longer. Had a Patagonia winter shell that suffered from declining repellantcy the more I washed it. On the advice of the tech department I ironed it after washing. Really helped. That was 3 layer goretex though.
Fit also seems important. Like canvas tents, if it is pulled over the shoulders or back slightly too tight, it seems to seep through.

I’ve given up on the idea of a waterproof jacket.

I sweat so much it’s down to wearing something that stops the cold water enough but lets the sweat steam off.

Not much success here with waterproofs either.

Too much faffagge for limited results.

I keep washing and proofing and think of them more of an insulating shower proof layer. I'm gonna sweat buckets on the inside anyway.

My mrs makes all gore type waterproof leak instantly. I think she is highly statically charged or something. She gave a new-ish leaky £100+ jacket to a friend for dog walking. Friend has had no problems with it!

I wash mine perhaps once every two years.

Other than than it's a hose off.

Are you sure some of you are not over washing?

If it’s for using while mountain biking, don’t bother. If you’re working hard on a bike you’ll likely overwhelm the breathability oh the jacket fairly quickly and get damp through sweat and unless you’ve got it fully zipped you’ll get wet anyhow.

Better off accepting you’ll get wet but use a decent warm layer with something like a very windproof soft shell over the top. Then keep a cheap waterproof in your bag for emergencies / mechanicals / extra layer to keep the warm in and wind out when you stop

My few year old Berghaus Vapour Storm is still waterproof, despite virtually no care and lots and lots of drenchings. Was only about £70 in a sale. It does sweat a bit, but not as bad as lots of other jackets as it's just a thin shell with no bulk or insulation.

Annoyingly it's pretty baggy after I lost a bit of weight, but the hood will fit over a helmet.

Rapha hardshell.

I also struggled with waterproofs for years - Madison, Gore, Montane, RF, Look, all weren't actually waterproof. Best of the previous bunch was a Gill eVent but that eventually died.

The Rapha isn't cheap, and I don't even know if they still make it. But it works.

What have you got at the minute?

Problem I have with waterproofs is that 5 mins of working at anything over ticking over, and I'm soaking in sweat, but I don't have any issues with actual waterproofing. when it's really throwing it down, rely on Gore

I am always amused that manufacturers quote transpiration rates to prove how well their fabric breathes but fail to mention that the moisture produced by an average human working hard is far greater.

I've been out in the rain all day in the lake district without my gore paclites leaking...

my endura and pace event jackets have been satisfactory on the bike

if you sweat a lot then maybe get a decent waterproof that also has pit zips which will help

You could look at the jackets designed for trail or ultra runners. They have similar requirements and there are a few eye-wateringly expensive but apparently very good offerings for them. Some stretchy jackets that breathe very well. They do tend to be very light though so I’m not sure how robust they would be. Could get expensive if you crash a lot 😀

Yes, but I'm not sure I'd want to ride in it. Truly waterproof jackets tend to be boil in the bag and really sweat. They'll keep the rain out though.

As a question, and this is assuming you're using it for cycling, why does it need to be waterproof? I've long since given up on this idea, a good base layer, a jersey and something windproof on top are perfect for cycling in.

Edit, the above does depend on how you cycle. I'm told I behave like a roadie in that I don't really stop when I ride so once I'm moving I tend to stay warm. If you stop a lot or a faffer that may not work.

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/mh500-mens-waterproof-jacket-black-id_8302503.html

Struggle for sizes now though. I had a hill race on Arran in June, was wet and mild the day I went over for a recce, wore this and ran and fast walked it, no issues with sweating. 16.5 miles and 7000ft of ascent so not a walk in the park.

I find that a durable and well vented windproof is a much better solution for MTBing most of the time - and then an emergency lightweight packable waterproof for the rare occasions when it's so wet that you start getting cold (or if you stop for a while). For me that's a Paramo Enduro Windproof and a Altura Pocket Rocket.

We use Violet's Laundry Liquid at home and because it doesn't contain detergent it doesn't strip water repellent coatings, so the windproof has been treated with TX Direct, as have my shorts and they can all go in the wash with everything else.

I was out for 2 hours in the rain on Sunday and my Endura MTR did not leak.

As Nobeer has posted the £60 decathlon jacket is a belter and as good as the £100 more expensive Bike name specific jackets
Reckon only the MT500 is more waterproof but is triple the price

I’ve had a few 😉

Altura Mayhem from about 2015 is absolutely waterproof. I tested it for three days on the Trans Cambrian in sideways 40mph proper Welsh downpours. It is not however very breathable. I take it out when there is a better than evens chance of drowning. I don’t tend to pack it, if I’m wearing it conditions dictate it’s staying on until the pub.

Endura Singletrack Jacket - 2017. Bought after the TC as I really wanted one with a hood that’d go over a helmet. A bit more breathable than the Altura, definitely not as warm but again properly waterproof. It needs a big pack to store it tho.

For my birthday I had a last years Gore G5 Active Jacket. This is definitely package, as breathable as anything I’ve bought and still waterproof. Small hood goes under the helmet which isn’t my favourite but otherwise it’s the perfect aut-wint-spri jacket and this will be in my pack from now until at least April!

All bought in sales. Altura was about £70 as was the Endura. The gore was £130 but based on the two outings it’s had in nasty weather, It’s worth it just so I can ride in the rain when it’s above zero degrees.

Look at Columbia Outdry jackets. No DWR, different technology.

*eyes decade old Buffalo gear lovingly*

I'm in the windproof, water resistant jacket and thermal Base layer camp, with a true waterproof in the backpack for if it gets really nasty.

The thermal layer used to be merino, but kind of the point of the windproof approach is acknowledging that you're going to get wet from either rain or sweat, but you can dry out pretty quickly, especially if your windproof is resistant to showers. In this context, merino holds on to too much moisture so I've gone back to synthetics for base layers and merinos for mid layers in colder weather.

I got a POC Avip jacket after my mate going on and on and on and on and on about how good it was .He was correct ,it is amazballs .
The pit vents also seem to work well,so no boil in a bag moments.
I bought the orange one so that I can be seen from space.

"The thermal layer used to be merino, but kind of the point of the windproof approach is acknowledging that you’re going to get wet from either rain or sweat, but you can dry out pretty quickly, especially if your windproof is resistant to showers. In this context, merino holds on to too much moisture so I’ve gone back to synthetics for base layers and merinos for mid layers in colder weather."

I'm in the polypropylene (sometimes as an aesthetically disastrous mesh) base layer camp, even over polyester in wet weather.

I don't often need a mid-layer but I've been experimenting with conventional fleeces with TX Direct treatment, making them highly water repellent. Paired with a TX Direct treated windproof the system will stand up to pretty heavy and prolonged rain but with much higher breathability than a conventional waterproof. (Paramo sell an official windproof+fleece system like this but I think there are better fleeces out there).

I rode for 3 /12 hours in the p******* rain at Ft Bill, my RaceFace Jacket (3 years old) only started letting in water through a seam on the back by the end. My Royal Storm trousers did fine the whole time.

Are you sure some of you are not over washing?

+1

my jackets only get washed when they start to pong or the fabric is wetting out, otherwise they just get hosed/wiped clean and hung up to dry.

Even the cheap SportsDirect/muddyfox jacket my mum bought me for Christmas kept my dry during a thunderstorm.

No jacket is breathable enough to keep you cool when working hard if you have enough base and midlayers on to keep you warm when at rest. I wear the absolute minimum under a waterproof usually only a SS baselayer.

This interesting chief. I've been having the same thought, but I've not actioned it. My concern is that it would run hotter than light base and woven windproof (I'm another that rarely uses a mid layer due to heat output.)

What fleeces have you tried?

Are you sure some of you are not over washing?

Depends who you listen to. Some manufacturers say the most likely cause of loss of waterproofing and or flaking off of the applied layer on the inside of the jacket is not washing enough. Sweat and the like being really bad for those materials.

We use Violet’s Laundry Liquid at home and because it doesn’t contain detergent

All soap is detergent, Violets (like soap-flakes and non bio) doesn't have the additional enzymes (lipase and protease) added to it that make ordinary soap work better on stains, but tend to wash off coatings.

Fox is basically a fashion brand, let's face it. Go for something from an outdoor brand, or something dirt cheap but prepare to sweat (and get wet). Or a Gore. I bought a half-price Gore Power Trail Active Shell on Wiggle and it's mint. Also, commit one jacket to biking and accept it will get covered in crap and doesn't need washing after every ride.

“All soap is detergent”

Are you sure?

Googling suggests: “The difference between a soap and detergent is basically in its chemical composition. Soaps are composed of sodium or potassium salts of long chain carboxylic acids whereas detergents are composed of salts of long chain sulphates and sulphonates.”

Endura MT500.

Wore it at last year's BB200 which was biblical rain and winds (Storm Callum) for the first 12hrs or so. I was slightly damp from sweat underneath and some getting in via the neck but apart from that I was dry.

It's also stood up to Icelandic wind and rain which is basically Scottish winter turned up to eleven.

I can't remember if I've washed it or not, it's had a few scrub downs to remove mud, but I think that's about it.

Chief, Violet's seem to think their product is...

Violets magic laundry powder - a gentle but powerful detergent that rinses out properly

It's not really the issue though, the point is that pure soap, or non bio tabs/powders are mostly safe on garments with coatings. You can pay for Nixwax stuff to be certain, but there's no real need for that (as your use of Violets demonstrates) find what works for you, and use it sparingly

I've given up on membrane/surface beading type stuff, get it covered in muck, is no longer waterproof or breathable.

Take my endura mtr shell for example, absolutely banging for mooching about in the most foul weather, give me 10 minutes on the mtb in filth and its sodden from all directions.

I'm with a few others above, layering to temperature with a windproof, fast drying outer.

Ditto as above with merino in the mix, holds onto the moisture too much.

Endura MT500.

Wore it at last year’s BB200 which was biblical rain and winds (Storm Callum) for the first 12hrs or so. I was slightly damp from sweat underneath and some getting in via the neck but apart from that I was dry.

Mine has been excellent. I’ve had it 3 years and only washed and reproofed once. I find it doesn’t get too hot either if I unzip under the arms.

Plus one on Endura MT500. Properly waterproof, pretty light, massive pit zips, pretty durable (18 months+) the best I've came across for breathability. Don't use the internal cuffs but otherwise it's ace and well worth the money.

It's not actually being wet that bothers me, it's just at this time of year if I'm soaked through I then start to get really cold. I just figured if I could keep dry then this problem wouldn't arise. Will check out some of the jackets mentioned and definitely not buy a Fox one again.

Endura Onesie
Expensive, but the Rolls Royce of staying dry

Merino baselayer and tights underneath = winter heaven

“I just figured if I could keep dry then this problem wouldn’t arise.”

If you’re in filthy weather and working hard then you won’t stay dry, it’s basically impossible when the humidity is high on the outside of the jacket from the rain and on the inside from your sweat.

The best solution is the right base layer to move moisture from your skin and (if needed) a mid layer that still provides good insulation when sodden. If it’s properly cold and wet (like below 5 or below 10 with lots of windchill) you can’t really beat things like Buffalo pertex and pile or lighter similar garments with micropile.

Also - pit zips. Really big ones. It's the only way to manage the sweat vs rain thing. No fabric can do it alone.

“Also – pit zips. Really big ones. It’s the only way to manage the sweat vs rain thing. No fabric can do it alone.”

Yes! Or big torso and arm zips. And velcro cuffs you can open wide for a cooling breeze when you’re going fast.

If you are going to look at a hard shell I’d avoid the bike specific brands, you’ll find better and cheaper typically by just buying some decent outdoor kit. There’s nothing special about cycling specific jackets

Except the cut. Usually at least a longer back on them for when you are hundred over the bike with your arms forward

“Except the cut. Usually at least a longer back on them for when you are hundred over the bike with your arms forward.”

I’ve never owned a decent waterproof jacket that isn’t cut like this. Maybe that’s because I prefer mountaineering/climbing style jackets rather than more traditional walking jackets, but anything made for climbing is cut higher at the front and longer at the back (for leg lift and harness clearance at the front), with long sleeves so they don’t ride up when your arms are over your head.

If you can stomach the cost then a goretex shakedry jacket will sort you out. I've had one for a couple of years now and it still beads. Was out in 'basically swimming' weather for a few hours last week and was completely dry on my top half.

As for the washing waterproofs thing, it's unlikely to be the actual surfactant component of the laundry detergent that causes damage, but one of the many other additives that get chucked in. I'll admit that his knowledge is from a couple of decades ago when I worked in laundry detergent research but I'd strongly suspect it's still true.

I'd get a shakedry if I didn't feel I'd kill it by wearing a pack or crashing

I've got an outdry which is the poorans version. Not hugely breathable but enough to be acceptable, plus no membrane to need to protect!

Do you run hot or cold? If you don’t run too hot I’d recommend a Paramo velez smock or even one of their evolution smocks. It’ll keep you dry and warm. Breathability is its main benefit and quite a few options for cooling down. I find them perfect for all day adventures where i don’t go ‘all out’ but a bit warm if I’m just going out for an hours blast

Only jacket I've ever had in 30 years of trying to keep dry that actually did so was a Pace Interactive. It was a 'smock' type but with full length side zips. It's hung up in the garage & when I lose 2 stone I'll be using it again!
They don't do them anymore. 🙁

one which keeps the water out for about ten minutes.

Are you wearing a back pack? That makes a big difference, the rain gets forced in where the straps are first and then where the bag sits

I’ve got a Madison one but tbh I’d say in winter have a merino later underneath to wick the sweat away and so long as you’re warm that’s the main thing...

@choppersquad - if you're not bothered about being wet - merino merino merino.

I wear a long sleeved merino as a base layer, a second (cheaper alpkit) merino on top of that if it's cold, then a fleece mid and wind/water"proof" top layer if it's horrendous.

Yes, I get wet - but the merino keeps me warm. As do my thick merino walking socks.

I wear a long sleeved merino as a base layer, a second (cheaper alpkit) merino on top of that if it’s cold, then a fleece mid and wind/water”proof” top layer if it’s horrendous.

Are you in the Arctic?! If I cycled n 2 merino base layer, fleece and waterproof I'd melt!