And if so what is it, other than "heels down"?
Or are there different approaches, like you have the British and US styles of rowing.
Or is there no universally understood "school" of mtbing, reflecting the more anarchic origins of our sport?
I think Bode Miller might disagree with there being a "proper" skiing technique!
IMO, whilst there are bad ways of getting through a section on a bike, you only have to watch the varying techniques of the top DHers to see that style is quite an individual thing when getting it "right"
In a word, yes.
But you're being incredibly vague. What do you mean by "universal technique" ? Technique for what, DH, XC racing ? Climbing, descending and cornering all have their own technique.
Or are you extracting the michael ?
Apparently, it's heels and wrists down, look ahead (NOT UP!) at where you're going, not at the ground right in front of you. It's very similar to motorcycling I think 🙂
My time honored techinique is simply "try not to fall off".
It's served me well.
As long as you are in the attack position you should be ok.
[i]"try not to fall off".
It's served me well. [/i]
I use the 'keep an eye out for somewhere safe to land when I fall off' approach, I'm hoping to progress to 'not falling off' by 2020.
Mastering Mountain Bike Skills by Brian Lopes, is worth looking at.
Keep the rubber at the bottom. 20 years later, so far, so good.
As long as you are in the attack position you should be ok.
**Giggles childishly**
PeterPoddy - Member
Apparently, it's heels and wrists down, look ahead (NOT UP!) at where you're going, not at the ground right in front of you. It's very similar to motorcycling I think
I don't ride either wrists or heels down.. there is no correct way
Search for Jedi on the forum
IMHO worth every penny of a 1-2-1 coaching day
EDIT: http://www.ukbikeskills.co.uk/
I don't ride either wrists or heels down..
Neither did I until the weekend. You should try it.
'Correct' is up for debate, but there's definately 'better' 🙂
Ride how you want to ride... what works for one, might not work for another.
You soon learn what doesn't work, as you fall off.
Perhaps you need a bit of coaching?
no I shouldn't.
But maybe you should try keeping the information you've paid to hear about [u]your[/u] riding technique to yourself instead of regurgetating it out of context to complete strangers on forums.
what works for one, might not work for another
Remember a lot of it is simply physics. So it's the same for everyone more or less. 🙂
no I shouldn't.But maybe you should try keeping the information you've paid to hear about your riding technique to yourself instead of regurgetating it out of context to complete strangers on forums.
Chill out dude, you did ask in the first place, than get annoyed when you get an answer you don't want to hear! If you don't wanna learn, then don't ask the question. 🙂
Go see Jedi, he'll explain it for you far better than I can. 🙂
Yup if your not sure then seek some coaching. Great rock is another well worth looking at if you want to build confidence or learn to get rad.
There's probably no one right way but there's plenty of wrong ways so to say ride how you like isn't helpful.
Top tip don't listen to your mates once you have had a coaching day their riding style will scare the hell out of you
last trip to Wales for resulted in comments that made me smile
I dont think there is a proper technique. I dont do the wrists down or the heels down thing, unless its riding a section of rough/steep downhill where it can sometimes help stop your feet coming off the pedals.
I like to think that there are not so much hard rules, but rather lots of choices with riding techniques. It's good to have an understanding so that you have some choices. Also, better to know what you've done wrong than to not know what you're doing!
Do a skills day, pick up some ideas, put it into practice.
peter - Don't worry I am perfectly chilled and not annoyed in the slightest.
FWIW I never actually asked anything, you offered me advice I am simply asking you not to bother unless you know what you're talking about and can put it into context. I'd imagine you're still buzzing from your session with Tony, he's a great teacher and I can totally understand your enthusiasm after being with him for a days coaching but it doesn't automatically qualify you to dish out advice ot others. 😉
I'm a family / self taught skier from the age of 2 and a half. I ski more sat back than most but was regularly quicker than a member of the british ski team when we went on hol with him. I can ski anything pisted flat out and usually do a full week without falling and am never out of control. My techniques though is far from textbook and so probably is my bike riding technique but again I can get down most stuff at a reasonable speed without hurting myself!
I realise now that there is a physical game and a mind game and they are tightly coupled.
Even in skiing there are many many techniques to learn.
there is no correct way
Yeap exactly.
For example I ride elbows in, because i am build like a matchstick and I have no upper strength.
It work in all sports. There is the theoretical/scholar way to do it and then there is your way to do it. Adapted to your body and your style.
If you are not certain the latest fashion seems to get some coaching. From my experience not worth it unless you want to practice a very specific point at a rather high level.
I agree some technique might be subjective, but there are certain things - retaining traction in corners, particularly - where good technique must surely be exactly analogous to skiing and can be taught in a prescribed way. e.g. switching your forward foot feels exactly like linking turns.
who teaches the skills day teachers?
jhw - pretty much none of the fastest mountainbikers on the planet (IMO WC DHers) switch their feet for opposite turns.
but it doesn't automatically qualify you to dish out advice ot others.
I'm trying to have a friendly conversation and made a suggestion, is all. You think I'm wrong? Fine. But why not try it first before you judge eh?
Yes, I'm still buzzin' and why not? I'd have never have booked a day with Jedi off my own back, my attutude was roughly what yours is right now (Indifferent/defensive/naive) but I got it as a 40th pressie and went in with an open mind, ready to learn. And some of it it truly eye opening. 🙂
Jedi skills days are indeed an eye opener 🙂 Since ignoring the "attack position" and "hang off the back" advice and doing it properly, my riding feels a lot more controlled.
e.g. switching your forward foot feels exactly like linking turns.
Oustide foot should be DOWN, inside UP.... not forward and back. That really does work 🙂 (apparently.....)
Peter - I'm genuinely happy that you got so much out of your day with tony, believe me but with the greatest respect you don't know me or my attitude or what I have or haven't already tried so please don't suggest I am indifferent, defensive or naive as when it comes to riding technique or skills training I am none of these.
GW, you just have been, in that very sentence.
Anyway, if you don't wanna learn, that's up to you. [s]I can't be bothered with this thread any more.
Bye, have fun y'all. :)[/s]
EDIT, crossed posts
I see you're perfect and don't need to learn and would rather pick out odd words in my sentences in an effort to appear better. What context would you like me to put foreward for you to argue with next?
there you go again. there is no "Should" unless it is in context, many turns can be quicker without dropping the outside foot. hopefully you're not so Indifferent/defensive/naive you can see what i'm getting at here? 😉Oustide foot should be DOWN, inside UP.... not forward and back. That really does work
PeterPoddy - Member
GW, you just have been, in that very sentence.
have been what? 😕
There are some good principals of proper technique but they do vary, often due to body shape and strength or the rider's background. Different riders have different styles. I was discussing this exact thing the other day with a bunch of mates - one was telling me that the 'Sam Hill' 'new school' of knees apart, elbows stuck right out was the only correct way of riding. I tend to ride with my knees in Gracia style (I wish!). Your technique for cornering, jumping, steeps etc will vary depending on whether you are a 'Hill' or a 'Gracia', neither is correct, they both have their place but after 20+ years of riding I'm not about to try and relearn everything.
I think a lot of the talk is misunderstood, or taken the wrong way. All the CTC network instructors use a similar system to base their training on, and this might well be different to other coaches' techniques. What our (CTC-based) method does give any rider is a method that is easy to understand and build on, and it works for all levels of experience from pure novice to high-level competitor.
It is as much a way of thinking about things as anything, although some physical specifics are obvious, such as heels down, head up. No-one is judging anyone that doesn't ride like that, it's just that we know by experience that the way we do it is good for a lot of people more of the time.
have been what?
Defensive, at the very least.
it's odd how you can nitpick with odd words I type, but not understand the meaning of something so obvious, too...... 🙂
[b]PeterPoddy[/b] Oustide foot should be DOWN, inside UP.... not forward and back. That really does work (apparently.....)
Some berms I go round allow me to keep my pedals horizontal, so as always, depends on the terrain.
[b]leggyblonde[/b] who teaches the skills day teachers?
They use their [i]own[/i] experience to teach others. What one 'teacher' may consider correct, another may not.
Having said that, I wonder how Jedi / Great Rock / etc, would cope if they were being the 'students'.
Oustide foot should be DOWN, inside UP.... not forward and back
PP, try riding a tight corner/switchback with outside FORWARD on approach before putting it DOWN for the apex. You don't have to do this, but it helps... a lot!
Some berms I go round allow me to keep my pedals horizontal, so as always, depends on the terrain
It's not to do with the terrain as such (For pedal/ground clearance) but about finding more grip to go faster. Motorcycle racers do a similar thing by weighting the outside peg, it's a well proven 2-wheeled technique. But it does feel very foreign and odd when you first try it, I'll give you that. 🙂
PP - if you're referring to road bike racers, they don't have a berm to support them going round. So they must keep the wait on the outside, so their tyres give the best grip.
But you can also load up the tyres and drop your CofG without dropping your foot...
Some corners you can just ride round without switching your feet about all over the place.
You can still weight the pedals without switching your feet
Foot dropping: I find this helps tip the bike without tipping the body, because the inside thigh doesn't entangle with the saddle and the inside foot is raised and almost unweighted. When I don't do this, I'm inclined (pun) to lean with the bike and weight the inside a bit, sometimes enough to slip the tyres. Foot dropping/tipping works lovely on longer flat turns, but it's surely not "the technique" for all turns.
PP: I'm interested to learn what is wrong the the "attack" position (I prefer to think of it as the "Ready" position)?
Even the best riders get instructor training from more experienced trainers. There is a network. So - even the best known skills trainers have incorporated ideas about coaching from other coaches.
I use the feet-switching technique specifically for switchbacks. If you have your outside foot forward on the approach to a switchback, this sets the hips pointing into the corner and makes the whole thing a LOT easier (IME). In most cases I agree that outside down IN the corner itself works best.
Feet-switching is far from mandatory though, and many argue that it's too much to think about.
Instructors will also have much to learn from riders who aren't qualified/famous people...
There are many riders who would be of equal skill level (if not higher) than the 'instructors'.
Personally, I wouldn't want someone trying to change my riding style - mine works for me, and has done ever since throwing a leg over the top tube years ago... 🙂
Having said that, I do have high regard for coaches who take the time to help those who feel their skills could be developed more.
A well worn debate, often turning into ranting! FWIW, I also prefer a term like "ready" to a word like "attack" - I know it is only a name, but if you are talking to a novice rider who is open minded it isn't helpful to imply that the trail is the enemy!PP: I'm interested to learn what is wrong the the "attack" position (I prefer to think of it as the "Ready" position)?
The two schools, in relation to "attack" position, are those that like head and torso somewhat forward, elbows out and pre-loading the fork - versus the other school which prefers relaxed back into the middle of the bike, wrists and heels down with neutral weight on the 'bars. In the second model you ride the bike with foot-weight much more. Both these clearly do work - it's just that the latter technique is better for more people more of the time (in our experience).
Looking where you want to go, 'round' the corners is the biggie IMO.
Everyone here probably does this automatically - it's fundamental and something you learn as a beginner. But the difference between not doing this, when you're starting out in the sport, and doing it is night and day.
FFS! where did I say I was perfect? or don't need to learn anything? or want to appear better? I'm simply trying to make you see how flawed your advice has been.EDIT, crossed posts
I see you're perfect and don't need to learn and would rather pick out odd words in my sentences in an effort to appear better.
doesn't sound like you understood the meaning of the word "context"? (in the context I used it in ;)) let me try to help.. whatever you ride you'll very rarely find corners/features on trails exactly the same as each other and to find the best/fastest/safest way through you can simply choose to blinkerdly say something like "oh.. I read on a forum that Oustide foot should be DOWN, inside UP.... not forward and back." and go with that. or you can actually go out and find the best way for you. learning involves thinking, planning, practice, comitment and often trial and error. You can do this on your own itl you are happy with the results, more scientifically with timing equipment or even video or through a coach/helper. I'm absolutely fine with all the choices available - Not sure why you seem to think I'm not TBH 😕What context would you like me to put foreward for you to argue with next?
Very true. A great many riders would be faster than me, and have more tricks. But teaching riding is completely different.There are many riders who would be of equal skill level (if not higher) than the 'instructors'.
PP - if you're referring to road bike racers, they don't have a berm to support them going round. So they must keep the wait on the outside, so their tyres give the best grip.
MTB trails don't have berms on every corner you know! 🙂
Look what an MX racer does too: Inside foot off the peg near the front wheel (to prop the bike up in a slide) weight foreward over the front wheel (To give front wheel grip and counter wheelies) and the outside foot weighting the footpeg.
As they are going slower than a track bike, centrifugal force doesn't come into play as much (Which is partly why track racers lean off the inside of the bike and MXers keep more vertical in relation to their bike) so they lay the bike over and keep their bodies closer to vertical, which also adds weight to the outside peg. This adds weight (so it follows more grip) to the tyres. An MTB differs becasue we lack the power (Engine) so we won't be picking the front wheel up from the cornerapex like an MXer will do, so we don't need to chuck as much weight forwards, but the principal is otherwise the same: Weighting the outside to add grip means you can carry more speed, berm or no berm! 🙂
you can still weight the outside of a mtb without dropping your outside foot or lifting your inside foot off and if done well it'll can be quite a bit quicker to get the next pedal stroke in. power wheelie out making Bbbbrrraaapppp!! noises if you want! 😉
Sounds like PP might benefit from a coaching course, paying particular attention to cornering... 😉
😆
and go with that. or you can actually go out and find the best way for you
But what if there's a better way that just feels wrong? Yes if you're happy to say as you are that's great, no problem there. But personally I'm always open to new ideas. My brake set up and riding stye were changed fir me at the weekend. It felt very odd at first but I worked at it because that was what I was there for. I was out last night and although it wasn't the sort of ride I could practice too much on, things were definitely better, so I'll carry on.
And to be hitting a decent sized drop into a dowhill bermed corner without even thinking about it on Saturday was a brilliant feeling. There's a vid on Jedis blog if you want to see what I mean. 🙂
PP: I'm interested to learn what is wrong the the "attack" position
I never passed comment on it. I just giggled. It's the wording: Why do you want to attack everything? Sounds like MBUK/WMB/MBR buzzword bingo to me! 😉
Sounds like PP might benefit from a coaching course, paying particular attention to cornering
I wanna get a bit more airborne next time. And something steeper. 🙂
Just because someone 'recommends' you do something, as they think it's a better way - does not necessarily mean it is right for you.
What you could do, and this won't cost you a penny - next time you go for a ride, adjust the levers angle, lever reach, stem height (if you have spacers to move around), seat position, post height, etc. You may find half way round the ride, you're new lever reach feels more comfortable (read: more in control).
You shouldn't need someone else to tell you how to configure the bike to your personal settings...
When I build up a bike, I spend at least an hour or two messing around with the setup....
if you want to progress to riding better/faster/whatever sometimes you might need to get used to it "feeling wrong" first. It shouldn't really be a big deal for someone so "open to new ideas" as yourself 😉But what if there's a better way that just feels wrong?
Looking where you want to go, 'round' the corners is the biggie IMO.
Until I did a skills course I never looked more than a few metres, if that, in front of me. Amazing the difference it makes when you're not focused on all the little bumps!
an hour or two Xiphon? I generally build any new bike to within my preferred set-up straight away but many small tweaks/adjustments may be made over the following weeks/years. remember the rider changes over time too 😉
Honestly, yes - an hour or two riding round the local woods making minor adjustments (moving in the lever by a mm or two) - and that's it. The only thing which changes regularly is the seat post height.
When I read that post the other day about the whole wrists bent and changing the angle of your brakes thing, I did wonder just how many people would go off and adjust the setup of their bikes that they have been happy with for years, because some bloke off the internet told some other bloke off the internet to do it.
I run my brakes really quite far towards the vertical; always have done and always will. It works for me and I know a lot of other people who have the same setup, and none of them are what I would call shoddy riders or in need of a training course to be able to jump a 6' gap. Am I going to change my setup because some bloke off the Internet who felt the need to go on a training course to do a drop off told me to? Nope. And that's no disrespect to Tony (as I'm sure he knows), as he is helping a lot of people to ride more confidently.
is an emotive phrase. There are a set of techniques that can be used to increase a riders speed, on a particular bike, round a particular type of corner, over a particular trail feature, etc. I can't really see why they wouldn't work for everyone.proper technique
So the answer to my original question is "no" - there doesn't seem to be a consensus
And that makes sense. Sometimes I switch my feet, when it feels right. Sometimes I don't! Even for the same corner, in like conditions.
Mind you I'm not exactly an arbiter of good technique.
Blimey, lucky we all have so much in common and get on so well. Time for folk to get out for a ride I think!
[url= http://www.mickfairestcyclingcoach.co.uk ]mickfairestcyclingcoach.co.uk[/url]this guy is really good: mickfairestcyclingcoach.co.uk
far better than I appear to be at posting links
"In the second model you ride the bike with foot-weight much more."
That's what I've been working on with my physical game. Really focussing on balancing and pushing through with the feet like a skiier. Stu picked up on my tendency to not keep feet level but drop my back foot, esp when anxious. And since working on this aspect I've felt more confident.
All skills are progressive - when you learn something you don't necessarily learn the 'ultimate' way of doing it to start with but learn techniques that give you the 'feel'. Once you've got the feel - once you know what you're trying to achieve - you can get that in different ways. Skiing's the same - techniques you're taught as week 1 beginner are still used at advance level but not in the same way.
You can weight a bike without dropping your pedals but it's s damn sight easier if you do. Look at really fast pro riders and there are times they're not but theres still a lot of 'body english' going on.
PP, try riding a tight corner/switchback with outside FORWARD on approach before putting it DOWN for the apex. You don't have to do this, but it helps... a lot!
Yes he's right about that (the help bit) for two reasons, the first being that if you are on the "low" side of speed at the apex, it gives you the little extra help to keep you rolling (the slower you go the more helpful it is), the second has to do indeed with body placement and weight distribution.
Sometimes I do it sometimes i don't. It all depends on the trail my speed etc etc. But then everyone I ride with is trying to get me look like a frog (yeah no pun here) on the bike.
Don't forget peter that motorcycle although relatively similar to MTB are very different in the way you handle them as (and you have said it quite right) their is not ploum ploum for a mtb.
obvioulsy the end should be: there is no ploum ploum 😳