[Closed] Is the bike industry just taking the piss now

GT Xizang?

so if the frame was made in the US or here it would be worth that money then? makes no difference to me, you're paying for the brand, the design, the other overheads, the country it was made doesn't really factor into it for me.

not saying its worth that, just I don't care what country it was welded together in.

I imagine a factory frame from China/Taiwan to be better than a 'handmade' in Britain/America frame tbh, my Intense is crap quite frankly for the premium you get charged

Unlike the children in this thread, the country of origin is important to me. I think a manufacturer immediately cheapens their offerings by having them made by slave labour in China. Taiwan I can live with, they have a good standard of living, and fairly decent wages not too far removed from UK wage rates. However, I make sure I buy lots of Hope to keep some money in this country at least.

The reason why the UK and other countries like the USA are in the shitter, and so many of you will never be able to afford the kind of house your parents lived in, or have a decent job, or your children have decent jobs or homes is mostly because of this use of asian slave labour. That and high speed trading or gambling up an economy to a point where the gambling is 70 times bigger than the real economy...

So yes it does matter.

some of the prices out there, especially frame only fs are bloody eye watering.

Watch you don't fall off that high horse 🙄

£1700 sounds like a bargain for a frame. A Top Fuel 9.9 is £3500, an S-Works Epic is £3000.

Saw a road bike in Royles yesterday. £12,999.00 down to £11,999! Is any bike worth that much?!!

Catering for the Cheshire set there I think!

£1700 sounds like a bargain for a frame

What do you mean now? Been like this for years but they can do because we, Joe Public biker, are happy to pay that price...

All my frames over the last few years have been heavily reduced [~50%] - last years or discontinued models
Latest one was a Titus from on-one, before that it was a half price Yeti 575, I used it for 3 years and still got more than half my money back when I moved it on

Bottom line, stop chasing the latest models

stop chasing the latest frames.../quote]

+1

 

Bike sales are up, and so are prices. Supply and demand and all that. Plus the fact that bikes are luxury items and people are prepared to pay a premium.

Personally I think the price of bikes is getting ridiculous, but whilst people are prepared to pay silly money for bikes, and lets face it many people on here are, then they can charge what they like.

Personally what I dont get is that you can buy a MX bike that is far more capable than any mtb and better engineered for the same money as alot of mtb's these days?!?!

The quality of colnago road frames improved when they stopped being
built in italy and started to get built in Taiwan.

you can get cheaper bike that work just as well btw, just incase you over looked that point. I'm pretty sure I'd break a £3,000 bike just as easily as i break a £700 bike.

Is the Whole industry Taking the Piss?

Nah, just charging what they think the market will support for a given product; there are plenty of other brands with various products to meet your requirements including price point...

If it costs more than you want to spend.... Don't Buy it, Leave it for the Espresso machine and Audi Crowd.

As for the Circular, Hyperbolic point of origin Debate...
Pah! I like my Bike frames like I like my Cars/Coffee/Women/Computers etc.... Assembled by "Asian Slave Labour"...

I've said it before and I'll say it again; Nothing Cools a Weld Quite like the Tears of a nine year old Bangladeshi boy...

Nothing Cools a Weld Quite like the Tears of a nine year old Bangladeshi boy...

😆

@van cough cough - where do Hope's raw materials come from? Where do parts for their milling machines etc. come from? Chances are someone is getting screwed over in the supply chain somewhere so get off your moral high horse :p

Surely to have a lower labour overhead and then charge the going rate is a bit off?

[img] [/img]

£1500

bikes have never been better or cheaper.

(the YT shown above is just an example, other awesome bikes for less than a month's average pay are available)

"Surely to have a lower labour overhead and then charge the going rate is a bit off?"

Is that really a serious question?

On a different note, I would really hope that companies like Canyon are starting to worry other brands as you can plainly see just how much other brands are ripping off customers, where Canyon produce very good bikes for peanuts (relative)

Surely to have a lower labour overhead and then charge the going rate is a bit off?

all businesses are constantly looking to cut overheads and it's never done to give the buying public a better deal
It's done to keep the profits rolling in and to compete

The only reason they ever cut their sell price is because they have to

You pays your money and makes your choice. You can drive a Ferrari, or a Mondeo, or a Matiz.

Sure, top of the range is expensive. Do you really [i]need[/i] top of the range, or you just really really want it? Is there something wrong with the 2010 model?

Trek have dropped their prices this year.
My lbs has already sold quite a few of their cheaper hardtails.

The 1.5 road bike is down by over 10% for example.

Surely Spesh and Giant are going to have to do the same?

Shame Boardman have hikes prices for the new range.

There are companies that try it on and others that offer great value. Canyon and Boardman offer some fantastic deals and others seem to take the pee. It's the same in any market there was a DVD player I saw that cost around several thousand pounds turned out the workings were from a cheap philips player but put in a lovely case.

Like all things if you don't believe something is good value then dont buy it.

That YT looks ace.

What will a complete bike cost next year upwards of 8k ??

Only if you're soft in the head!

In our garage:

Kona King Kikapu
Full 775XT down to the pedals, Hope/DT swiss, King, Rebas, Schwalbe
£1600

On One C456
2011 150mm Revs, X9/XT, Hope/DT hubs on Mavic 717, Magura Louise Carbon
£1200

Spesh Pitch
Lyriks, X9, Magura Louise, Hope/SUN wheels, High Rollers, Cane Creek 110
£1300

Andf that's what I've actually paid for them, as close as I can work it out. None of those bikes are anywhere near cheap or shabby, but every one could easily have cost me £1000 more than I actually spent.

It's about being clever, not just chucking cash around...... 🙂

Watch you don't fall off that high horse

[b]thedevelopmentengineer[/b]:
If indeed it is the GT Xizang that you are refering to then i must tell you that it is handmade in Taiwan, by adults, and not China.

Also, you cannot compare a direct to retail brand like Canyon or Boardman with the likes of Trek, GT, Giant etc. The direct bikes come straight from the factory to the shop floor or even the front door in some cases.

The traditional manufacturers have to import and sell to IBD's so there is an extra margin involved there, it just means that Canyon and Boardman are great value which is great for us, the end consumer, but like 'Cougar' says: "You pays your money and makes your choice. You can drive a Ferrari, or a Mondeo, or a Matiz". The £1500 Boardman Carbon bike is mega value and looks great but lets be honest, its not that nice a frame.
Almighty

Surely not long now before one of the big supermarkets start selling decent quality bikes?
Can't see them passing up the opportunity.

Why is the Boardman frame not 'nice'?

Just out of interest.
Never read a bad review.

The Pedalforce frames used by Ribble on the Sportive models appear on some very pricey bikes too.
Are they better or worse frames because of the name on the downtube?

Maybe they reached a high point last year....as said trek have reduced some prices and the carbon remedy 9.7 is now £3200, £4000 last year.
Compared to the £2200 the alu remedy 8 was in 2009. A better year for VFM as I recall.

Too many of us chasing diminishing returns at the very high end I reckon. But if hundreds of middle aged men with lots of disposable keep paying "for the R&D" then why wouldn't they put on huge margins.

Can the kids get a decent bike for not too much money though? That's what would make me sad.

The Boardman is nice, in fact its very nice, but if you compare the frame to a Trek or similar then its not as nice.
My point was backing up Cougar, you pay your money, you get your bike.

There has been a massive upswing in pricing over the last seven or eight years. For example, back in 2004, an S-Works Enduro frame retailed at £999. The 2005/6 S-Works Enduro was £1,100.

That said, Santa Cruz is knocking out Butcher frames at a reasonable price.

Not all the Treks have come down, the TF9.9 is up £500 to £6500. Then again, the S-Works Epic is £7200.

SRAM XX Cassette 10sp rrp £325

WTF

About 12 years I bought a Gt Zasker for about £1200 on sale an was top of the range then, Sids, XTR v brakes etc.

Now a days you don't get a bike with those parts (labels) for that money.

IMHO I'd rather ride a modern version for £1200 which would likely come with Recons and deore/alivio and Hydro discs. you may not like the fact your bike costs more and says "alivio" on it but it will work a damn sight better than what was around 10 years ago because the technology has come on so much more.

And so what if the Taiwanese are charging more for the frames they produce they are as much entitled to the same money as a westerner for the same amount of work in my eyes. They have worked hard and the production quality has come on miles.

When I read the post im pretty sure a GT employee said its made in china and they have a history of working with that factory.

I stand corrected it is actually taiwan.

I suppose I'm wondering how long it will be before someone sets up manufacturing in the UK as the prices aren't that dissimilar anymore with the exception of Orange off the top of my head I can't think of anyone else mainstream that is,with the exception of the custom folks.

Ethically I'd rather deal with Taiwan than China

The Xizang is made in the same place as quite a few other Ti frames in TW.
Also, the EU doesnt buy from China.

It's all labels, labels, labels isnt it.. just like the £4 vs £100 pair of jeans debate.. if your a label whore and really need that xx equipped carbon rocket for & 7k and your wallet can take it then your asking to have the piss taken... considering the law of diminishing returns you dont need to spend more than 2-3k to get something that will ride 90% as well as anything.... oh and I would much rather a frame from one of the best frame shops in the world (Taiwan) than some of the wonky old stuff welded up in this country..

Dunno about complete bikes anymore, just sent a stroppy e-mail to the shop I bought one of my bikes from saying I want my money back as after 10-15 rides the list of failed components is beyond a joke!

-headset
-rear brake
-rear hub bearings
-rear hub freehub
-bottom bracket

It's been July/August FFS, if you'r components can't survive 4 weeks riding at this time of year why the f*** are they attached to a bike with an RRP of £1800!

The first few failiures I could live with, just chalked it upto being an American in California specing a loose bearing headset etc, but the rear brake pulling to the bar for no apparent reason and the rear wheel turning it into the worlds first 18 speed fixed gear freeride bike mid way down 'the abys' in Guisborough were the final straws.

Also, the EU doesnt buy from China.

The ammount of stuff labled 'made in china' would diagree with you.

wasnt there a thread the other day saying a giant cost more for the bike than all the parts at RRP? that's taking the piss. Top end stuff is gettin gpricey but I guess the lower down stuff is getting better too so start buying xt instead of xtr, x7 instead of x9 if it's too pricey.

Personally, I doubt any of the bikes talked about above are made by anything even approximating slave labour. Most of the factories will be judged and chosen by visiting Americans/Europeans who a) actually care about human beings, b) wouldn't want any negative publicity.

However, the working environment laws are very different in China and some of the things happening around pollution, waste disposal, etc might not be to our taste. I'm willing to bet that most of the factories making our premium mountain bikes are considered a highly prized place to work.

If you want to see examples of really poor working environments, I'd by far more concerned about full sus bikes on sale in supermarkets for £69.

Im talking bikes thisisnotaspoon, unless this is a toy shop thread now.
There is an anti dumping duty of 40-50% on bicycles into the UK, see here:
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageImport_ShowContent&id=HMCE_PROD1_026952&propertyType=document

Jimalmighty

The traditional manufacturers have to import and sell to IBD's so there is an extra margin involved there

No they don't. They could choose to sell direct if they wanted to, and have bike in a box shipped direct to consumer after a web based order. They choose not to and we (well some of use choose to) pay more.

I admit defeat! White flag...

"If you want to see examples of really poor working environments, I'd by far more concerned about full sus bikes on sale in supermarkets for £69."

I bet they come out of the same factory as your £7k bikes!

We live in a capitalist world, and therefore the rich exploit the poor, always have done, always will.

There was a programme a while back on TV about surgical instruments which cost thousands of pounds in the UK, but are literally made by a boy in a dingy filthy dangerous brick room in India. Its the way of the world.

Ah you see medical instruments is the field I work in and we daily have to justify our prices. I can hazard a guess when your laid unconscious on an operating table country of origin ,whilst admittedly may be the last thing on your mind becomes very important.

developmentengineer - I know it will have been sensationalised for the TV, but they were talking about alot of market leaders branding stuff as made in Germany, when it was actually made in India.

I still dont know how you justify the prices though, even if they were made in Europe!

Im talking bikes thisisnotaspoon, unless this is a toy shop thread now.
There is an anti dumping duty of 40-50% on bicycles into the UK, see here:
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageImport_ShowContent&id=HMCE_PROD1_026952&propertyType=document

Prety much all carbon frames are made in China as thats where the expertise and cheep labour rates are.

Van-Nic, On-One and many other brands titanium frames are made out in China.

The presance of ADD doesn't stop imports, just makes them less competative.

In terms of value. That's going to be a personal decision. Clearly the OP thinks that the 29er in question isn't worth £1699. Obviously the manufacturer thinks that many will buy at that price and therefore have judged it good value.

I think there should be more information. The industry as a whole tries to avoid all talk of Taiwan/China wherever possible.

As I've said lots of time on this forum, I see bikes as more than the sum of their parts. I appreciate the time, skill and the personalities of those involved. Sometimes that means I appreciate Brant trying to bring niche bikes to the masses. Sometimes it means I appreciate a hippie in America hand-welding a bike using Reynolds steel. But I definitely weigh it all up every time I purchase.

Here's an old thread where I tried to find out who's making bikes in their own back yard:
http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/full-sus-bikes-not-made-in-taiwan

[b]thisisnotaspoon[/b] - if that's true about Van Nicholas, then their website is very misleading.

"That is why every single Van Nicholas bike ordered is hand-built right here at our factory in Holland"

('bike' and 'handbuilt' are often used together to mislead)

"And, as you’d expect from a Dutch masterpiece, with a signature verifying its authenticity."

AlexSimon - Member
if that's true about Van Nicholas, then their website is very misleading.

"That is why every single Van Nicholas bike ordered is hand-built right here at our factory in Holland"

('bike' and 'handbuilt' are often used together to mislead)

If VN don't make the frames in house, then surely they really mean that every VN bike is hand-ASSEMBLED in Holland..? "Hand-built at our factory in Holland" is deeply misleading if they're not actually welding the tubes together.

I'm pretty sure the frames are made in Holland.

Airborne where completely different when the brand split up the dutch guys wanted to do it right and formed Van Nic

To answer the thread title, Yes, or at least, parts of it are.

The aspect of it that gets me is the lack of comment by the magazines. I don't read them thoroughly, so maybe they [b]have[/b] addressed this but when I look at MBR and they are reviewing £4k bikes in a grouptest I'm always surprised at the lack of comment on the vastness of the sums of money involved.

If you look up Evans and sort Mountain bikes by high to low, the whole first page is £4-£6k bikes! - that's twelve whole monkeys!

http://www.evanscycles.com/categories/bikes/mountain-bikes

"The aspect of it that gets me is the lack of comment by the magazines"

You know this is the one thing that strcuk me when I got a copy of Singletrack Magazine for the first time in years about 4 weeks ago. The advertising is geared to expensive stuff, the reviews are all of expensive stuff. Then again the target market of the magazine is middle aged men with large disposable income who want to feel different to the crowd... it used to be a magazine about riding bikes and thats one thing I see has changed. 🙁

£1500
...less than a month's average pay

it used to be a magazine about riding bikes and thats one thing I see has changed

**Magazine in trying to make money shock**

when I look at MBR and they are reviewing £4k bikes in a grouptest I'm always surprised at the lack of comment on the vastness of the sums of money involved

It is crazy that £4000 is now 'mid range', but it is, so for magazines to be saying "this is a lot of money" is pretty patronising to their readers, and they can't really mark things down when that is the going rate (rightly or wrongly). You can't review a product based on the halcyon days of what it used to cost!

Products usually suffer when they're either stupidly expensive with some problems or more expensive than obviously comparable products, which is more significant than a general dismissal of products which are deemed 'too expensive'.

I think one problem may be that the wages of the buying public havent increased at the same speed that bike prices have increased

Circa 2006 top end xc/trail bikes were around £3,000 to £4,000 as I recall

now 5 years later its more likely £6,000 + for a top end bike

I would think to most people it doesnt feel like their wages have doubled in the last 5 years

when compared to the materials, manufacturing etc of a cheap car how on earth can a 6k bike be justified - exactly how can it cost that much??? i'd be amazed to find out?

there very simple things really (suppose the shocks are the most complex)

I'm 99% sure they're Chinese.

Rocky Mountain and Binanchi IIRC pull the same trick, having the frames fabricated in the East and then painting/finishing in Cannada/Italy as the argument is untill that point is that the frames are just alloy frames untill they get the sticker/paint/BB faced and its the brand that adds 50% of the value, thus its made in XXXX not china..

But in 2000 a top end bike was £3-£4000, and that's the issue. A lot of prices were held for a long time, we're now seeing vast jumps, as opposed to small year on year increases.

An XTR chainset cost nearly double in 1999 what it did in 2007, now it's about 20% more than it was in 99, doesn't seem unreasonable!

FunkyDunc....agreed about the direction Singletrack magazine is heading....i probably bought it for the last time this month....it has become achingly trendy and an advertising rag for high end parts.

The journalistic pieces were painful too....that column from the try-hard who was banging on about current FS bikes being the be-all and end-all and anything old or nostalgic is crap was laugh out loud funny....sadly i think it was a serious piece though.

The bit that anoys me is I always though sailing was expensive, but a £4k Laser could last a lifetime (plus sails etc every year obviously), even when its 20 years old and only worth £500, some 16yr old can buy it and still be competative in the class.

It's at a point where raceing MX might actualy be in the same ballpark than XC!

We need more On-Ones churning out quality bikes at peanut prices.

but the point with Laser dinghys is that the technology is the same as it was 20 years ago.

If XC racing had rules that limited riders to metal rigid frames and forks, thumb shifters, cable rim brakes and no more than 21 gears then the 'keep using it for 20 years' rule would also apply.

But bike technology moves on quickly and the high end sales are what pay for that.

tbh, a £1000 bike now is probably generally better than the top end bikes of 20 years ago and could easily be raced at a pretty high level by someone who was fit.

[edit] adverts in magazine are aspirational - a lot of people go in the shop to look at the £4k bike but walk out with the £1500 one that looks about the same but has cheaper kit bolted on it?

Bike prices, like nearly everything else are based on what the manufactures think people will pay, if people keep buying 3-4k bikes and top end gear, manufacturers will carry on charging the daft amounts they do.

Are you all mad!
I can't believe you're all talking about bikes doubling in price over the last few years. And 6k bikes! What planet are you on!

Sure, there's a lot more expensive gear about for those that want it but you can still buy a modern version of the same bike for about 15% more. Seems ok to me.

5 years ago you could buy a Nomad, stick some XT/Hope/Rockshox/Mavic gear on it and it would be ~£3,400. Today it would be same/tiny bit more.

£2,200 bought an off-the-shelf slx/xt fs bike with a decent frame, compromised hubs and a few own-brand bits. Still the same as far as I can see.

My Pitch was £1400 RRP when I got it in 2009 (though on cyclescheme), think it's now £1800 - big increase but hardly double.

when compared to the materials, manufacturing etc of a cheap car how on earth can a 6k bike be justified - exactly how can it cost that much??? i'd be amazed to find out?

there very simple things really (suppose the shocks are the most complex)

Well a Bugatti Veyron Super Sport is about £1.5 million, so that's about 200 times more than a very basic car.

A £7000 bike is about 140 times more than a £50 supermarket special, so actually top end bikes are better value than top end cars.

It's about scale, ask Toyota to knock out an Aygo in the same volumes that Spesh do an S-Works Epic and they'd laugh you out of the room. Car analogies don't work - particularly when people start comparing top end bikes to bottom of the range cars.

5 years ago off the shelf mid range lx/xt fs bikes with decent frames from the likes of giant were more like £1500 at full rrp moving up to say £2,200 for the same from someone like rocky mountain or santacruz

I dont think the low to mid range stuff has increased as quickly as the top end stuff the the op started this thread over

Rusty Spanner - Member
Why is the Boardman frame not 'nice'?

Think the OP missed out the 'h' 😉

Inbred frames used to be £225 with welded dropouts. They're now £199 with swappable dropouts and stuff.

My Pitch was £1400 RRP when I got it in 2009 (though on cyclescheme), think it's now £1800 - big increase but hardly double.

I think its fair to see the pitch as a sensible real world every man's bike.

Although £400 in 3 years is'nt double its still about a 10% increase each year

I dont suppose everyman real world pay rises have been 10% a year during that time

Yeah but the price rises are mainly due to exchange rates rather than bike industry profiteering aren't they? I got it wrong BTW it's £1750 now.

Or maybe bike companies are making less money off 'normal' people now as they are squeezed by the financial situation, and are instead targeting fleecing well-off people? 🙂

I do think component parts are getting silly though, the Pitch actually looks good value at £1750 with current prices. Shame Spesh are stopping making them for 2012.

I know what you saying grum and tbh without seeing the secret inner wrangling of the big bike price fixing conspiracies that are going on who really knows! 🙂

Although with a thought on profiteering Specialized are dropping the Pitch.. Is the Enduro really that much more to produce?!

Hands up if any of you have spent more than a months wages (in total) to put each of your bikes together?

At the time, I spent about 50% of a months salary putting together my P7 (about £600). 2010 frame with (used) xt cranks, slx gearing and fox floats. It does what I asked of it and didn't break the bank.

my point is (as echoed by others): if people are willing to pay for a fully built up bike from a shop, be prepared to pay through the nose for it. A £6k+ bike is not intrinsically worth that much but there are gear freaks who love having the newest, most expensivest, shinyest thing they can get hold of and this is why we see these monstrosities plagueing our magazines and webpages.