[Closed] Is softshell apparel actually crap?

My Gore soft shell is about the only thing I wear on the road bike from November to March [if not raining] but I never wear it on the mtb because it is too hot. It might be just down to personal heat levels. I have substantial built in insulation so a long sleeve base layer and a softshell are plenty.

I can't see much point in it normally, it's either not waterproof/windproof enough, or too hot to layer effectively. Got a very cheap Decathlon one which is good for, well, days like today- not quite cold, not wet, not quite windy either. But it's very specific.

I would say that your base layer was overkill when temperature is 6 degrees.

Today I was riding in a gilet and I think the warmest it got was 8 degrees.

I swear by my Gore Windstopper jacket but feel that you need to experiment with what to put on underneath. For example, I would normally wear a Berghaus base layer which is lightweight and in fact wore this with my gilet today.

Edit: I've fallen out of love with merino due to the slight damp feeling.

I wear soft shell in winter and find it really effective. I only swap to a shell and heavier mid-layer in pouring rain.

I found I have to experiment all the time, and finally after a couple of decades in the hills, on bikes and in canoes, I seem to get it right more times than not.
I find being too hot / not vented enough to get rid of sweat is as bad as being too cold.

I wear an Endura softshell on the road bike in the winter. I just can't get on with 'waterproof' 'breathable' shells - they just aren't, so put up with the damp but warm feeling in the softshell. It's not perfect, but I prefer it to getting soaked inside expensive and supposedly breathable alternatives. I've got a Rab fleece / pertex top that I wear offroad that works in a similar fashion, I think.

Your baselayer will make a difference though. I discovered Helly Hansen recently and they work a treat, wicking well whilst still insulating. I had one that I picked up off here on today - it's part poly, part merino. I'm right off 100% merino baselayers - just too wet.

Best thing about the Endura softshell is the big pit zips. I have them open almost all the time. It's all a compromise though - when your riding in wet / damp weather and producing a lot of heat, it seems to be asking a lot of clothing to cope with it.

I've noticed that soft shells where the windproof part is the front panel only, you start off with cold arms, but end up about right. Fully windproof softshells are normally way too warm until it gets close to freezing.

The non-windproof "Pro cycling" Aldi jacket with a baselayer underneath was fine today. Warmer sleeves seem to make up for the lack of windproofness.

Were you keeping up the same workrate towards the end of the ride, or were you getting clammy cos you either upped your effort or were cooling down a little?

I sold my Gore softshell as it did what you describe i.e. wasn't that windstoppery yet didn't breathe that well either. I ended up with the following wardrobe depending on temp:

-mild - either a Endura Jetstream jacket or a similar Capo one.
-bit colder - Gore N2S fabric phantom or vapour jacket
-cold - Campag thermo textran jacket

all with a Craft synthetic base, again I've got a few types depending on temp.

The word 'apparel' most definitely is crap.

I've got three or four softshell jackets of varying thickness and waterproofness.

Love them, but gotta have the right one on for the temperature/rain.

cinnamon_girl - Member

Edit: I've fallen out of love with merino due to the slight damp feeling.

It's alright for socks but I can't understand what anyone sees in it anywhere else tbh. Give me a cheapo sport direct baselayer any day, better at everything.

softshell is ****ing brilliant. I absolutely love it for climbing / mountaineering type stuff and would not go back to other systems. Having said that, I don't use it on the bike: I think the level of exertion, heat output, sweating etc won't work. Maybe I should try again when it's really cold - it is very insulating once you get going.

It's all a compromise though - when your riding in wet / damp weather and producing a lot of heat, it seems to be asking a lot of clothing to cope with it.

Merino stays warm even when wet, which I find a real boon. Plus, it doesn't stink.

Softshell works as an easy-to-sell idea but not in practice, ime. I prefer separate layers for insulation and water/windproofing. Insulation needs to be fairly close fitting and wicking, and windproofs that have some space between them and the base seems to breathe and vent better. Combining them into one layer seems a daft idea to me. (edit to add, I do have a few that I use, just only on moderate days and local rides)
Something that is sort-of one layer with loads of venting options like a Buffalo/Montane Extreme jacket works for cold-weather hill walking and I have a similar combo of fabrics in a thinner jacket that is good for cycling, but neither are a single-layer construction like a typical softshell.

In reality most "softshells" are not softshells. A good article explaining the difference can be found [url=

It's more aimed at climbers, but the priciples are the same.

Love mine, particularly the gilllet. The trick is to make sure they're well fitting, I.e. If you're a medium go for a small. No need to spend loads either. I have Karrimor for mtb but posher hi viz Gore stuff for road. 🙂

And, not all soft shells are equal. I have a Montane that is neither water or wind proof - but breathes superbly. I have another Montane that is wind proof, warmer and slightly water resistant - but less breathable. I have a Cloud Veil that is warm, wind proof and water resistant - but least breathable. I then have half a dozen soft shell trousers, all of which use different fabrics and all work differently again. So you need to find the one that works for you.

I have a gore jacket that has soft shell wind stopper on front and arms only. Works really well on road bike at about 7 degrees and under but too hot for Mtb. The arms zip off so you can half undo them to regulate your heat which works really well.

Eat more pies.

HTH 😉

TBH that sounds like overkill for 6c. I commute in a Gore Phantom all year round with varying levels of arms on or off and part way betwen as pit zips (of sorts). In 6c I'd be in the Phantom with arms part zipped off with a thin Helly Hansen base layer, not a thermal one.

I am a big fan of softshells though.

I have an endura windchill that comes out when it's really cold and wet or absolutely freezing. It's a pretty good compromise, it's definately windproof but even with the normal jersey bits it still ends up damp inside. Fine when pedalling but cold when stopped for any length of time.

Never really get soft shell as see s neither one thing or another. Base layer/thermal plus wind proof top does me all winter unless it is stupidly cold and then a thin fleece or wind proof underneath. I would be sweating buckets wearing what others wear riding and running.

Thank goodness for Helly Hanson - Mtb, skiing, running, climbing, golf.....

I've done night time road rides for nearly 3 hours in a tight fitting rash vest, a haglofs hoodless synthetic down jacket and a gore windstopper with the pit zips open a few inches after the first 20 mins or so. I get home with the down jacket soaking but I've felt warm and not too hot throughout it all. I do dress a bit overkill and hate the descent back into town under dressed. 25-30kph in 2c-5c conditions.

If its is proper windstopper material then it is the least breathable thing thing since suffocation. Hence all your hard earned sweat stays firmly on the inside.

I keep it to three separate layers in conditions you describe Eg over the Nan Bield pass in crappy weather on Saturday I had HH light weight thermal, pearl izumi thermal long sleeve jersey full zip and a montane waterproof jacket ( old style entrant DT). Felt warm dry and cosy both carrying up and blatting down.

Agreed regarding the variability of soft shell. Some are not breathable at all.

It's so dependant on how you hot you burn. I wear significantly less than the guys I ride with, I prefer to be cold for the first 10 mins and just right for the rest of the time, they hate the feeling if being cold and open zips etc as the ride goes on.

My recommendation for road riding in the cold ( 0- 3deg c) is textran thermo or something similar - I found a bargain Campag top and Morvelo do a thermoactive top. Both do me on the coldest days with a thin berghaus LS base layer. This fabric seems to have the right combination of keeping warm in but allowing breathability to keep the worst of the damp out.

I don't think there is a solution for rain. You either get wet from the rain if you're not wearing a shell or wet from sweat if you're working at any moderate effort because manufacturers' claims for breathability may sound wonderful, and event and gore text certainly breath better than other membranes, but I just cook inside.

Love my original Phantom N2S - incredibly versatile. It's on it's second zip and full of holes but I don't know what to replace it with

I don't find gore windstopper at all breathable, I recently purchased a jacket made from polartec power shield, and that is much better, Windstopper has a waterproof membrane, with tiny holes for supposed breathability, but IMO such systems fail very quickly when working hard. Power shield depends on the weave and a dwr for waterproofness and are much more breathable.

I'm a huge fan of softshell jackets. All I wear from about 10 degrees downwards is a base layer and a softshell. On the MTB I've got an old Gore Phantom N2S that I wear (as intended) on its own.

On the road I've got a current style Assos 851, and old style 851 and a Gore Oxygen softshell (in order of warmness!).

Never wear a waterproof, despite having a nice Gore one.

The most breathable outfit I've found is a thick wool zip neck jumper with a gillet and base layer.

This can handle most conditions short of heavy rain, and is ok in light drizzle for a while. It's easy enough to put an unlined Pertex on top of it if it's too wet or if you stop in very cold conditions.

Excess heat can be quickly dumped by pulling up the sleeves and unzipping the neck.

It's usually that or a Rab VapourRise jacket.

I'd take a bullet for my Gore Windstoppers. A BULLET.
Too hot, and you take the sleeves off, bish, bash, bosh. Love 'em.

Many thanks for all the replies!
Seems like 50% get on with soft shells and 50% experience similar clamy-cold effects.

And 'tis true
- 6°C was maybe a little too warm for that sort of kit (Gore Tool jacket meant to be very warm)
- I will give it a try at -4°C tomorrow night (similar intensity but shorter ride)
- for the mid-3hours of the ride the jacket was fine and only got clamy-cold in the last hour when I stopped and then backed-off a little on the last tired transfer miles back home, less climbing, less intensity

Many thanks again - I'll give you an update when I have tested different layers, temperatures etc.

Clothing is a very personal thing as you can tell from all the answers above. Also we all feel the cold to different degrees. I just bought my first softshell. Its a cheap Karrimor one but I like it so far. I did get wet in some monsoon like conditions a few weeks ago but its been up to the task in more showery conditions. I wore it and a merino base layer on my MBL training ride and didn't need to add or take off layers all day. Did get a wee bit chilly if we were stopped for a bit and likewise a bit too warm on hard climbs but neither situation was uncomfortable. The others were regularly putting on or taking off layers. I will add that I'm not a fan of waterproof jackets as I generally find them too warm and only wear if its really wet and cold. Experiment and find what works for you.

Do you use the zip and vents as well? That clears far more dampness than the breathability will.

Not as bad as fleeces or boil in the bag waterproofs but yeah pretty crap, good for mincing round town/putting on back at the car

Have a look at Sub4. Baselayers, glove liners etc ( at up and running) apparently they're HH without the badge.....3 for 2 deal on now......so far feel better than my Howies merino and a fraction of the price

Since when has wearing a coat been called a "system" ?????

Nothing (besides my musto shooting jumper) is 100% windproof, nothing is 100% waterproof, it's all a compromise.

I generate a lot of heat anyway, but rarely wear a coat or jacket, prefer to go with a long sleeve base layer, t shirt over, and a thin waterproof if it's actually raining, otherwise I just sweat too much & get damp.

NONE of the breathable products I've ever bought actually do what the manufacturers claim, anything remotely waterproof doesn't breathe, and anything that breathes isn't waterproof.

I really like soft shells for commuting, can't be @rsed faffing round with loads of layers. Anyone used any of the Rose bikes own brand stuff?

http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/rose-winter-jacket-windbreaker/aid:658476

Not as bad as fleeces or boil in the bag waterproofs but yeah pretty crap, good for mincing round town/putting on back at the car

Out of interest what do you wear then?

I can't really imagine wearing anything other than a softshell for winter riding, and if you take fleeces and waterproofs out... what's left?!

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've added or taken off additional layers on a ride, just can't be arsed with that. When I have it's more in spring/autumn when I think I may want a gilet or arm warmers to combine with a standard road jersey. Do people wearing loads of layers change mid ride?

Have got a Mammut softshell in the cupboard but it has to be cold for me to wear it. Cold as in Winter 09/10 and 10/11. Wore it quite a lot then inc one morning when it was -15 on Cannock's frozen arctic wastes

Biggest problem for me is that it is not very versatile it has to be blazingly cold for the duration of the ride

Merino stays warm even when wet

For the record, I've yet to find a clothing combo that keeps me warm [i]on the road bike[/i] in winter. I've tried just about every conceivable combination from:-
baselayer: HH Dry, HH Warm, Icebreaker merino
mid; Gore Contest Thermo, Sombrio merino
jacket: Gore Phantom windstopper
shell: Montane Photon
plus DHB balaclava & buff

0-20 mins I'm chilly because I haven't warmed up properly and...well...it's chilly!
20-40 mins in and I've warmed up properly and actually feel OK, but I'm starting to get a bit of a sweat on...
40-60 mins the inevitable ingress from the cold wind and the cooling / evaporation effect leaves my core chilled.
60+ mins is a miserable test of 'endurance'.

Basically, the 'wicking effect' however effective it may or may not be is not perfect, so there's always an element of dampness in the base layer. Cold wind WILL find a way in and sure as eggs is eggs, I'll feel ****ing cold!

For the record, I've yet to find a clothing combo that keeps me warm on the road bike in winter.

There's of course every chance that I'm a 'warmer' person than you - but if it's properly cold (well, anything below about 5 degrees) then I wear a base layer (got a merino one, it gets damp, don't like it. Fit's crap too), either an old Briko synthetic one, a Nike thermal one, or an Altura compression one, with a Gore Oxygen softshell and a thermal skull cap - either DeMarchi or Altura, any bibshorts, Assos Airprotec bibtights, Gore Windstopper gloves, DeFeet Woolie Boolie socks and Northwave Fahrenheit boots.

Whether I'm doing a 30 minute commute or a 5 hour ride I wear the same, don't get cold or hot.

Whether I'm doing a 30 minute commute or a 5 hour ride I wear the same, don't get cold or hot.

Off road I wear a LS base layer, LS merino zip neck top and a Madison soft shell gilet. keeps me warm, unless it's getting down to freezing point or blowing a gale, and if I get hot I can roll the sleeves up for a few minutes. It's the only combo I've found that works for me. If it gets really cold I have to put a showerproof jacket on top though.

I wonder if we're going full circle on this?

Back in the day (jumpers for goalposts, when all this was fields etc.) there were two garments that the entire UK mountain bike community held sacred, both made by Polaris - the pertex wind shirt for windproof and showerproof, and the good old retro-active fleece for colder weather - light fleece with a pertex shell making it wind and shower proof, and side zips to dump heat (was this the first proper cycling soft shell?)

Throw in a soak in polar plus and this was more than enough to shed 95% of UK weather, rarely if ever resorting to waterproofs.

Do we need to update and bring back the old gear and drop all the fancy pants laminates and funky labels ?

After reading this thread I am starting to wonder if adding a decent fleece in place of my gilet might be an answer for 5 deg and under temps

I have started cycling in my montane jaguar fleece in cold but dry weather, has just enough wind resistance, but properly breaths and wicks fantastically. The problem comes when the weather is a bit more damp, then finding a balance can become quite difficult.

I find most montane style pertex windshirts are no where near as breathable as claimed, they are probably fine for those that don't sweat much as they offer virtually no insulation to raise the body temp. But for those of us who can easily build up a sweat they are nearly as clammy as a full on waterproof. I would only use on as a "just in case" option to be kept in a backpack.

Bloody love windproof softshells I've got a few, lighter weight and heavy, baselayer and a softshell job done. Don't bother with waterproofs anymore softshell will shrug off a bit of rain the showerproof pacamac in my 'bak will shrug off some more if needed, in a waterproof in heavy rain I'll probably be as wet from sweat so aslong as I'm warm and wet in my softshell I'm happy. They're breathable, once you've stopped windchill you don't need a lot of insulation. Only problem is if you do long pub/cafe stops, you may be get cold and have trouble warming up when you go back out, if you're gonna stop just pack a thin jersey.

Back in the day (jumpers for goalposts, when all this was fields etc.) there were two garments that the entire UK mountain bike community held sacred, both made by Polaris

^^ what D0NK said ^^

I can't bloody stand wearing waterproofs under any circumstances, as I generally tend to sweat like Jimmy Saville at a school disco.

It has to be properly bucketing down before I'll bother with a jacket of any description. I've a pretty lightweight Endura fleece that must be the most worn item of clothing I've ever owned. If the rain starts approaching biblical proportions, then I'll put a lightweight Sombrio soft-shell on. Its great ipit zips down to the elbows. I've got a heavier Race Face one thats good when the temperature is hovering around freezing.

I honestly don't know how anyone wears 'proper' hardshell jackets. They're just horrible! And the word 'breathable' is the most laughably abused in the English language. What it actually means is 'you might sweat slightly less than if you wrapped yourself in cling-film'

Softshell is more of a general concept than a specific thing. Take each jacket on its own merits. I use some really thin softshells as an outer layer cos they are a bit warmer and more comfy than pertex. I've never bought that kind of jacket that the OP links to though because they cost a bloody fortune and are just too thick and warm for cycling, for me.

I do use waterproofs, but only very rarely and in specific circumstances.

In reality most "softshells" are not softshells.

I do use waterproofs, but only very rarely and in specific circumstances.

I rarely wear mine even when raining though, I find that you don't actually get that wet from the water coming from the sky, use mudguards (on the road) and still wear a softshell unless it's absolutely bucketing down. Don't think I've ridden in a waterproof for a couple of years.

we are not all so fast we can avoid the rain like you though 😉
I agree in proper rain though I wear waterproofs and also when it rains when it is really cold
the main issue is staying warm not staying dry

About the only time I've nearly regretted lack of waterproofs is in an unexpected really heavy very cold rain shower, and then it's been my knees/legs more than my body/arms that have been suffering and not many people seem to bother with stealths or other waterproof pants.

I do have stealths and tend to wear those when it's going to be a long ride in damp conditions, usually with a softshell up top.

we are not all so fast we can avoid the rain like you though

🙂

Joking aside I very very rarely stop whilst out riding - which may make temperature regulation easier. Probably have a mid-ride cake stop, but will rarely just stand around chatting at all during a ride.

You must also live in the flatlands, riding uphill for 20-30 mins and then descending for 5-10 mins makes temperature regulation much harder than the odd couple of minutes chatting.

Joking aside I very very rarely stop whilst out riding - which may make temperature regulation easier.

You must also live in the flatlands, riding uphill for 20-30 mins and then descending for 5-10 mins makes temperature regulation much harder than the odd couple of minutes chatting.

Mmm, yep don't do many climbs that long. Will often undo the zip 6" on my jacket when climbing.

Merino for active sports is one of the biggest marketing cons ever, wet, cold and clammy, very expensive, total marketing hype by our antipodean cousins.

Great for socks though!

You gotta make sure you're wearing this seasons colours, nothing clashes and no one has the same ensemble as you

For what it's worth, I'm a fan of a softshell with a baselayer underneath. Normally go for merino or a Helly. Both work well. Again, 10 degrees or below for that set up.

I've got a couple of softshells - a Rapha for the road and a Gore for offroad. Both work equally as well, but Rapha has a better fit and pit zips plus is a bit more breathable.

Oh and I never wear a waterproof. Just don't see the need.

Merino for active sports is one of the biggest marketing cons ever, wet, cold and clammy, very expensive, total marketing hype by our antipodean cousins.

Not very hard wearing either. Only full price merino base layer I bought, ice breaker, has now worn through the small of the back from camelbak usage. Never worn on its own either.

I take a small light waterproof if I am going into the mountains for an all dayer and it looks like rain. I don't want to be cold and tired then suddenly soaked with freezing lashing rain.

The only other time is if I am off to do a long training ride and it's already raining hard when I set off. Getting soaked and freezing before you warm up is much harder than getting wet when you're already warm.

Quick update:
- went out last week again, lower temperature than first try (now -3 to -6°C), additional windstopper gillet under soft shell jacket
Result: less cold than week before (when temps were around +6°C), still clamy and coldish around shoulders at the end of the ride due to evaporative chill effect)

- went out yesterday with my old standard set of clothing for coldish weather (warm baselayer, heavy merino mid-layer, windproof gillet) while conditions were inbetween (+3°C to 0°C) and surprise: it was pretty much OK for most parts of the ride only slightly cold around arms after short breaks but OK as soon as I got going for a few minutes. Only at the end of the 4h ride after stopping and chatting for 10 minutes in the cold and then heading back home I felt pretty cold (who wouldn't). I added a thin hardshell windbreaker jacket (Endura Helium Jacket) which sorted the cold completely after a few minutes. I felt warm and dry for the rest of the ride.

Coming home the inside of the jacket was pretty wet the baselayer and merino more or less damp.

[u]Which proofs my point:[/u]
(at least from my point of view and for my kind of sweating and perceived warmth/cold...)

- a soft shell gets clamy as a whole and cold as result due to evaporative chill

- a hardshell is separated from the base- and midlayer by a buffer of air, ist may also keep dampness more inside. All of this results in less evaporative chill.

[i]-> Gore Tool Jacket for sale! 😐 :wink:[/i]

"Softshell" is one of the most abused terms in outdoor gear.

It truly covers a multitude of sins from windstopper fleeces to essentially showerproof jackets.

I have been using a Howies Outback Jacket (old model but basically the smae as the current one for the last 5 or so winters.

They aren't cheap (well my was actually but thats another story) but it works really well from about 8 degress with a short sleeve baseleyer underneath down to...well I've not actually found it's limit in terms of temp. I have been out in about -10c and with a short sleeve baselayer and long sleeve baselayer I was perfect.

I need to get round to renewing the DWR on mine but even in "medium" rain it's fine.

If I'm heading into the mountains for a big day I'd take a proper storm shell too for when I stop or if the weather terns really nasty.

For 6 degC I'd only use a long sleeved Helly Hansen with a Montane Velo windproof jacket over top, oh and bib tights. Only use my Girodana softshell for cycling when temps are around 2 degC or less and even then offroad it can be too hot. Sometimes I think you just have to accept you'll be a little sweaty and warm on the ups, and a tad chilly on the descents, as long as it isn't too extreme either way you'll be fine.

Agreed the merino is a crappy baselayer, but as a mid layer for walking it's pretty good.

RAB Vapour rise jackets are great softshells for walking, but I don't think they'd work for cycling.

NB: I'll try not to stop in cold weather, hence, can use fairly lightweight kit. If you stop a lot you'll need warmer gear, so you don't freeze when stopped.

Trouble is, it's too warm still for a Tool when doing high output activities.

I have an old N2S Gore Complete that I've worn from 30C to zero. When it's hot, the sleeves come off, when it's less than about 8C, I use a synthetic base. For me, Merino is shite as it takes ages to dry (from sweat or sky juice) and goes clammy and saggy and chills you.

Colder than about zero (or just above), I use a Tool. When it's very cold, I wear a synthetic base with it.

For either when it's cold, I take a pertex windproof and use this to avoid getting cold during/immediately after stops.

Softshells are OK but they're really a solution looking for a problem as were their predecessors, the Buffalo 'system'....

There seem to be a lot of people wearing two shell bits at the same time on this thread- recipe for getting clammy I'd have thought?
Anyway, a lot of the stuff sold as softshell isn't what I think of as softshell. A lot of them seem to be basically un-taped waterproofs with a fleece layer attached (Endura Stealth?) which seem to miss the point to me. Something like Rab Vapour Rise is more like it I reckon.
Windstopper ( as in Gore) is nowhere near breathable enough for me personally. I'm a big fan of Pertex type fabrics over a base layer- if you're working hard that works in all but the very worst conditions IME.