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As has even well documented I the the new Stumpy carbon frame and the new Santa Cruz ebike have both been launched with no routing for shift cables. As far as I can see you would only do this for 1 of 2 reasons as a manufacturer
1 SRAM have offered you superb deals that mean you are happy to lock yourself into axs only for the lifetime of that frame. That might be possible but would seem quite risky for a frame manufacturer perspective.
2 Shimano are finally about to launch there version and the frames are coming our before the official launch.
As someone with a preference for shimano shifting I might just be too optimistic/ hopeful and want competitor to help drive the prices for it out of the stratosphere
Rumours that at the XC marathon worlds (probably lake placid xco too but I haven’t watched it yet) that some of the top shimano athletes had the unreleased wireless shimano mechs with fake cables glued to them.
That might be possible but would seem quite risky for a frame manufacturer perspective.
Meh, the big brands only need to sell a frame for a year, maybe two, before revising it. The risk, if there is any, is with the rider getting tied into an ecosystem; big brands are taking no risk here themselves. Plus, in a few years time the rider can always stick some cable guides on and run a full outer to whack on Deore or Cues and not have to empty the bank for a new drivetrain.
Also sram are on their second gen of wireless mtb group sets. And they seem to have abandoned cables above GX level. I wouldn’t be worried about non compatibility for the manufacturer or first owner.
(as kelvin points out though, in five years someone wanting a second hand frame as a cheap starter bike/winter bike/park bike might be a bit upset).
there was an article on here a while back about getting a custom frame built. It raised an interesting (but probably very niche possibility) that someone commissioned a cableless hardtail or road /gravel bike in the specific period where first gen AXS existed, but UDH didn’t (or wasn’t ubiquitous). Hence leaving a custom frame owner with only the possibility of using first gen AXS for the rest of the hopefully long life of the frame.
I've no idea why Shimano haven't bought out a wireless groupset, but with the introduction of Cues, they seem to have tacitly given up competing with SRAM for the top end market. Last update to XTR was what? 2018 when it went to 12 speed? Something like that. I can't see them suddenly introducing a wireless version when Dura Ace Di2 is still only partly wireless.
There was something about it coming soon on the vitalmtb rumours thread.
It will be something completely new (to fit in a “portless” frame) as you still need the battery in the seat post in the current versions.
To be fair I’m not sure the current cable they use is robust enough for off road, so a new option could make sense…
I posted a few days ago about Shimano AI shifting. While not wireless it seems, and on a hub gear, they are clearly using tech where they see an opportunity - https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/shimano-ai-gears/
I’ve no idea why Shimano haven’t bought out a wireless groupset
sram have a patent on it, so shimano need to do some clever work-around (like wiring front + rear mech together on the road side), to circumvent them
To 5lab's point. There was a recent Pinkbike podcast with a couple of Shimano people and there was a brief conversation that implied that they have as many patent lawyers as they do engineers.....
sram have a patent on it
Ahhh, that makes sense
How does Campagnolo get around it then? Isn't Super Record fully wireless?
Sram don't have the patent on it being wireless, anybody can do this
They have the patent on using the same battery for the front and rear mechs.
Hence why in the patent application for the new wireless Di2 the front mech battery can be used on the rear mech, but not the other way round.
They have the patent on using the same battery for the front and rear mechs.
I thought ideas had to be both novel & non-obvious for a patent to be granted? Using the same type of battery for two very similar devices is surely extremely obvious? IANAPL.
Why are people obsessed with getting rid of power wires? Why not run all motors from a single battery (plus the little coin ones on the shifters/controllers)?
The most exciting new product I'm looking forward to is mechanical SRAM transmission.
I thought ideas had to be both novel & non-obvious for a patent to be granted? Using the same type of battery for two very similar devices is surely extremely obvious? IANAPL.
It is probably down to the specific nature of the application. I have seen a patent for an alignment dowel which was granted becasue it realted specifically to its use on a truck brake torque plate.
or 3) run external cables under their self-adhesive cover.
I do this on the steel trike with 10 speed Di2. Looks fine and works well. By contrast, I just had all of the cable stops and shifter bosses removed from my steel TT bike frame so it is wireless electronic only - I run SRAM eTAP on that.
Mavic was wireless in 1992.
I think in most of the world the battery patent wouldn't stand up in court, however in the US it very well might do, and as that is a major market it wouldn't make much sense to tool up for such different implementations to the US as the rest of the world.
Once it moves to a button to press then the feel is going to be very vanilla at the handlebar as you won't get any feedback.
How the system shifts will make a difference i.e. the original axs shifts very quickly but the T-type seems to have a second delay before shifting - that would wind me up. Shimano will no doubt have a slightly different take on the actual shift - if they are working on wireless...
However, when it comes out, it won't be a feel preference at the handlebar that people will be buying as pressing a button is standard.
T-type seems to have a second delay before shifting – that would wind me up
I thought it would, but it doesn't.
There's some number of shift points, and it's a different number per cog. I'd be interested in how many, can't be arsed trying to count at the moment.
There was something about it coming soon on the vitalmtb rumours thread.
It's been a few weeks since I caught up with this, but at the bottom of this page https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/The-Hub,2/2020-MTB-Tech-rumors-and-innovation,10797?page=634
End of this year - XT & XTR wireless, and new brakes.
I hope it’s on its way so I can estimate how long it will be before the affordable version is released. I have bike with go and xo1 and I’m not keen. I’m not sure they have clutches in their mechs and I hate the big gap between the 52t and the next one. It’s far too big. My cable ocd wants less cables on my bike especially when so many manufacturers seem to not understand hose routing for those who have the rear brake on the lefr
especially when so many manufacturers seem to not understand hose routing for those who have the rear brake on the lefr
Even the On-One Scandal manages to mess this up on a frame designed in the UK ?
Even the On-One Scandal manages to mess this up on a frame ordered out of a catalogue in the UK ?
FTFY
You could change the cassette to a 10-50...may need to drop 2 teeth on the front ring (or push harder on the pedals) - I was fine with a 50t on my 27.5 bike, but moving to the 29 and I'm glad it has a 52 as I'm in 1 easier gear for the climbs as they aren't fast!
there was an article on here a while back about getting a custom frame built. It raised an interesting (but probably very niche possibility) that someone commissioned a cableless hardtail or road /gravel bike in the specific period where first gen AXS existed, but UDH didn’t (or wasn’t ubiquitous). Hence leaving a custom frame owner with only the possibility of using first gen AXS for the rest of the hopefully long life of the frame.
Canyon produced a portless road frame for a year or two, not sure it's available any more. Specifically stated in the product description that it could only be used with SRAM AXS.
Sram don’t have the patent on it being wireless, anybody can do this
They have the patent on using the same battery for the front and rear mechs.
Which is why Campagnolo wireless road groupset has to use a different battery on the front and rear mechs. Current Di2 gets round it by having the mechs linked to the same central battery.
Battery integration (into mechs) was the sticking point as I understood it.
Again I'm not sure SRAM can actually patent having a removable battery, but if they have, as alleged then Shimano being forced to have their batteries sealed up in the unit would be a real minus point against their products.
looks like its about to officially drop
embargo mentioned here...
https://flowmountainbike.com/features/flowback-shimano-xtr-the-story-so-far/
looks like its about to officially drop
Marvellous, now where's XT?
Must be imminent as the simmering leaks and rumours have reached boiling point in the last 24 hours
Interesting that competetive cyclist have totally ignored the presumed media/retail embargo.
Interesting that competetive cyclist have totally ignored the presumed media/retail embargo.
Is that not just a teaser / publicity photo? It gives no real details or info. I'd have thought the embargo was on full details, review etc?
When SRAM launched the revised Red groupset, a spate of "first look" videos were on YouTube within minutes of each other, they'd all clearly had a groupset to review with strict instructions of a publicity date.
That is one fugly chain set!
I like the wired Shimano Di2 system on my emtb , makes sense for it to be powered by the main battery
Sram is way ahead IMO on the simple ergonomics of the shifter
I had the old XTR Di2 but preferred the mechanical version’s ergonomics, these though look like a huge improvement on the old Di2 shifter and much closer to the mechanical ones - and still with some lever throw by the looks of things rather than just buttons.
I recall some rumours that tomorrow would be the day for unveiling, June 5th.
Not a fan of the XTR crankset design above, it looks like RF Aeffect which I have had on two bikes. No technical issues but they have quite annoying edges which wear fast.
I saw a Shimano ad trading new stuff on the 5th of this month. That said, my current XT stuff is so very good.
pricey, but it is XTR so it was never going to be cheap
Have to find out what and when XT and Deore will be available.
Sram is way ahead IMO on the simple ergonomics of the shifter
I really think SRAM have got most of the top end MTB and gravel market to themselves now. Road, they've certainly replaced Campag as "the other" brand, maybe it's more 50:50 Shimano:SRAM there with Campag a very distant 3rd.
Definitely helps with owning RockShox as well allowing stuff like dropper posts and suspension forks to be seamlessly integrated.
I'm trying to buy a 2x Di2 gravel bike at the moment and it's a pain finding off-the-shelf stuff set up like that.
Interesting that competetive cyclist have totally ignored the presumed media/retail embargo.
I reckon one of the web managers has cocked-up, happens a fair bit.
That chainset does look a bit gaudy - but at least people will know you can afford XTR I suppose.
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Robust Design: A wide link structure, skid-plate design, durable carbon plate and solid pulley add robustness and longevity.
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RD Protection Function: A new automatic impact recovery function instantly returns the derailleur motor to its original position after impact.
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Wedge Shape: The new wedge shape of Shimano’s most survivable rear derailleur to-date avoids more direct impacts, and smoothly glances off rocks if there is a hit.
do you think there might be some issues with the Shimano 12s stuff being fragile?
Removal battery as well according to the mikes bikes page.
Just give us a silver polished with brushed rub area chainset please. All modern Shimano cranks look bashed and rubbed like 5 year old cranks after a few rides. Who wants painted with (half) a big logo?
Oh, GS mech looks smart. Should stay tucked well out of the way. Not that I'd hang a mech worth more than 2 figures off the rear of my own bike.
Just give us a silver polished with brushed rub area chainset please. All modern Shimano cranks look bashed and rubbed like 5 year old cranks after a few rides. Who wants painted with (half) a big logo?
+1. This era of SLX got close to being perfect with the polished face on the bit that's always going to be rubbed.
Also something that Hope got right with the current EVO cranks.
A direct mount version of those, with 52mm chainline, would be close to perfect. Mine still got obvious chips and scratches though, away from the brushed silver area. Is there any good reason for any Shimano crank to not have that heel rub solution in place, after they proved how well they could implement it? And not even at XTR level.
Removal battery as well according to the mikes bikes page.
Plus a 9-45 cassette for the GS mech. Quite strange considering Shimano's reluctance to embrace a 10 tooth cog on the road for efficiency reasons.
9-45 and the look of that mech suggests it will be a lot lighter than Transmission - that's probably the obvious way to go after SRAM
I'd imagine the 9-45 is to get the cassette weight closer to the top end SRAM cassettes while maintaining the range but without having to resort to excessive machining. The Shimano cassettes are definitely more efficient on the material usage front and must be cheaper and quicker to make.
Plus a 9-45 cassette for the GS mech. Quite strange considering Shimano's reluctance to embrace a 10 tooth cog on the road for efficiency reasons.
It sort of makes sense, a 52t sprocket weighs a flipping ton on it's own, and unlike the road there's unsprung mass to consider.
Might also be an easy way to make XTR stand out from XT if they both end up with similar features by giving XTR a 'race' cassette and keeping XT as 'trail'.
That said, the XTR 10-45 with 3 alu cogs is still only 10g less than an xx1 which is all steel except the 52, heavier than the XX1 10-50, and the top end Transmission cassette is even lighter, so but of catch up to do
9-45
There's 9-45/mid cage 'optimised for impact survivability / with 23mm more ground clearance for a bash free ride' aimed at racers (weight) and enduro (clearance) I guess
as well as full 51t cassette/long cage.
“do you think there might be some issues with the Shimano 12s stuff being fragile?”
I’d read that as a response to T-Type’s claimed durability. I’m still on original XT and XTR 12 speed mechs that I’ve been using for 5 years, so while some seem to find them fragile, I haven’t had that experience.
The narrow range cassette isn't really about weight savings. It's for smaller more even changes between gears. It's also smoother, with quicker and more consistent gear changes. I've been running one bike with 10-45 since it came out. For me it's preferable most of the time, when I don't need a lower gear. Doesn't seem to be a popular option though. Most people care more about having a dinner plate.
Agree about Shimano cranks rubbing. Super annoying. Shame they stopped doing silver just to chase black like everyone else.
A mate sent me some screen shots from Weight Weenies that shows XTR, XT and Deore.
Official release is 5th June according the the youtube short on Shimano's channel:
https://youtube.com/shorts/FTpm8nydD2k?si=2i8PGOIzbNckQ0mE
That said, the XTR 10-45 with 3 alu cogs is still only 10g less than an xx1 which is all steel except the 52, heavier than the XX1 10-50, and the top end Transmission cassette is even lighter, so but of catch up to do
Yea...... but the RRP is £590, for a cassette! Even discounted they're over double the cost of an XTR cassette (~£450 Vs ~£220)
NickC commented on the previous page that perhaps Cues was Shimano giving up on competing with the top end groupsets. I think it's the other way around, XO/XX/XXSL are just SRAM giving up on reality 😂
I know the last decade or two has made the UK poorer, and that maybe in the USA which is a bigger market those £500 cassettes are more justifiable. And there's always been a weight-weenie market prepared to pay massively over the odds for small advantages, so maybe they've not quite given up on reality, they've just moved into the space previously occupied by some very niche companies. XTR still seems like it's aspirational, XXSL is just expensive.
The narrow range cassette isn't really about weight savings. It's for smaller more even changes between gears. It's also smoother, with quicker and more consistent gear changes. I've been running one bike with 10-45 since it came out. For me it's preferable most of the time, when I don't need a lower gear.
10-45 yes I agree. 9-45 though just gives you exactly the same range as 10-50 with the same jumps (+/- rounding errors) except the 9t weights a lot less than the 50t it replaces.
Yea...... but the RRP is £590, for a cassette! Even discounted they're over double the cost of an XTR cassette (~£450 Vs ~£220)
Exactly this. I switched my xc bike to xtr 12 speed for much less than a SRAM cassette would have cost. SRAM pricing has lost touch with reality.
10-45 yes I agree. 9-45 though just gives you exactly the same range as 10-50 with the same jumps (+/- rounding errors) except the 9t weights a lot less than the 50t it replaces.
If you switch to a 28t chain ring you get the same range of gears too. The other big advantage is you can then use the medium cage rear mech which keeps the thing more out of the way from things you hit
A mate sent me some screen shots from Weight Weenies that shows XTR, XT and Deore.
The last time they re-vamped the whole line up together it was 10speed because they were breaking compatibility between mechs, so that doesn't give me a good feeling 😂
Unless they're just adopting UDH into the existing shadow-link / direct-mount which would make sense and be easy to implement as a few aftermarket suppliers already do it. And give them a quick marketing win "hey, we're up to date with the latest standard, they're a bit stiffer than they were,, and still have a frangible link that won't trash your frame".
10-45 yes I agree. 9-45 though just gives you exactly the same range as 10-50 with the same jumps (+/- rounding errors) except the 9t weights a lot less than the 50t it replaces.
Same principle as Suntour Microdrive 30+ years ago!
Same principle as Suntour Microdrive 30+ years ago!
Now there were some components! XC Pro(?) thumb shifters were the nicest component on my bike at the time
10-45 yes I agree. 9-45 though just gives you exactly the same range as 10-50 with the same jumps (+/- rounding errors) except the 9t weights a lot less than the 50t it replaces.
It'll weigh less but Shimano are doing it to avoid bigger or uneven jumps in the gearing, which happen at the lower end of the cassette. Not that most people care but Shimano are better than Sram on this, even with the 10-51. Sram's one-upmanship going to 52t means a huge jump between 1st and 2nd.
The signs that Shimano were preparing to offer this were there. Composite chainrings with steel teeth surfaces but lightweight (and stiff) carrier can be made small without sacrificing wear or efficiency better than all aluminum chainrings. Microspline allowing for fewer than 10t on the smallest cog.
All seems to be live on the shimano website now:
https://bike.shimano.com/en-UK/products/series/xtr.html
Definitely lots of options to chose from, including an 11 speed linkglide mech.
Surprised (and pleased) to see a mech for all cassette options. Rather than trying to sell you a whole new system.
EDIT : Ah, no… those are e-bike only… makes sense though. Thought there was an 11 speed mech for normal bikes for a moment there.
I just had an email sent to me personally from Shimano.
"Designed for the demands of professional racing"
I checked my CV, I'm not a professional racer so no-one is going to give me a groupset. After that I checked my bank balance and can confirm this will not be coming to a bike near me any time soon.
It was nice of Yozo Shimano to keep me updated though. That's customer care that is.
That 9-45 cassette is interesting. I think the following are all true:
11 and 12s cable mechs have the same actuation ratio.
11s mechs cover to a 46t cassette
The new cassettes are the same spacing as existing 12s cassettes.
If so, i think there’s a good chance I could run a cabled drivetrain with 12s shifter, 11s mech and the new 9-45 cassette. Fairly light, no need to charge, decent range (albeit the 9 is just for the odd road section), mega ground clearance. Thoughts?
Be interesting to aee what the ‘best’ non electric option will be.
Why not just go with the GS M8100 or M9100 mech?
Mostly because i already have an M8000 mech! Although also perhaps a little lighter, a bit shorter.
New stuff mostly looks decent to me. The backwards compatibility is good. Faster shifting speed than Transmission. Prices are a bit too steep to justify upgrading just to be cable free for me. Might have to wait for XT and/or discounts. Still prefer to have cables, but market forces appear to be pushing the other way.
Pinkbike seems to have flagged up the lack of clutch, but haven't seen anyone else say bad things about that yet? Maybe Dario received a bad one? I've got a X01 mech now where it feels like the clutch is getting weaker. Shimano being adjustable was a huge plus point.
Just going to cartridge bearings in the hubs will instantly make Shimano wheels a lot more saleable.
Dunno what Shimano were thinking copying Sram with that stupid brake hose rubbing and rattling on the bars situation.
Pink bikes negatives are funny. 'still using a hanger', that's not a negative!
yer i saw the PB review first and the first negative was relating to the chain tensioning... which was literally one of Shimano's best points...
however.. another video review suggested it worked great.. .so......
With narrow wide rings I don't always use the clutch anyway or have backed them off. Better shifting that way.
Just going to cartridge bearings in the hubs will instantly make Shimano wheels a lot more saleable.oh dear, draggy hubs... (still got 9 and 10 speed shimano hubs that run beautifully with 10s of thousands of all weather miles on them)
Hmm. Some odd decisions-
no forefinger shifting
Still using hanger (udh doesn’t bend IME - it’s not sacrificial) (and as a result set up is still manual as position isn’t fixed. Tester also talks about using the trim button a lot which doesn’t sound good)
no mention of rebuild ability no personal experience but I’ve heard you can actually buy all the spare parts for sram transmission at a reasonable price and quickly rebuild a mech