[Closed] Is pro cycling now a clean sport?

No.
Just look at Horner.

Sadly no, Menchov and Tiernan Locke in the last week alone. It taints a truly incredible sport and tales away from those riders who do race clean as the finger of suspicion always hovers over them. It also means Big sponsors for the pro teams are hard to find, sky the exception. Bel kin have only done one season. The fear of having your teams name all over the news associated with doping s still too much of a risk.

Well, yer Horner might be a little suspect - but he's pretty light, so would of only put out maybe 325/335 watts over that final climb - which is the best part of F'all compared to the days of Pantani.

I didn't want to bring up Tiernan-Locke, as the jury is still out on that one. Plus I don't know enough about the passport system to have a worthwhile comment. But it does seem that with the exception of a couple of recent pingings that the actual performances themselves are certainly more believable now-a-days.

I'd like to think so, but there will always be an element of doubt thanks to Armstrong.

SPOILER!

Cleaner than Rugby Union.

Things seemed to changed since Operation Puerto:

Barcelona not winning every tournament they enter.
Spain disappointing at the world cup
Nadal no longer dominating on every surface

Oh. You asked about cycling...

100% clean? No, but a whole lot cleaner than it was. And a lot cleaner than many other sports as well IMO.

Seriously? I'd say naivety.

We still have 'incredible' riders being able to ride people off their wheel on the steep stuff and place highly/win time trials all whilst weighing as much as an anorexic schoolgirl. It used to be that you were either a climber or a TTer and that's what the Tour battles were all about.

The blood passport has been proven to not be all powerful as a) Armstrong was never popped by the UCI on his comeback despite USADA using his dodgy parameters as their pathway to getting him banned and b) heaps of people in pro cycling have been complaining about the lack of testing (some Dutch neo-pros said they weren't tested for 6 month in out of season did they not). I believe the term is bandwidth doping. Every era learns how to cheat the system. If you haven't read it go read The Secret Race (Tyler Hamiltons book) and seek out the Landis interview where he blows the whistle on micro-dosing. It's still doable (just more complicated than keeping you hct level below 50%!).

Re JTL, a little research will show that there were questions raised about his performances, so much so that Endura tried to get him on the passport system despite him not being pro tour rider. Sadly he does fit an all too familiar mould...

Cycling is obviously cleanER but history tells we've been here before and it usually turns to be a tissue of lies.

The blood passport has been proven to not be all powerful as a) Armstrong was never popped by the UCI on his comeback despite USADA using his dodgy parameters as their pathway to getting him banned and

I thought the issue with LA and the biological passport was that you needed 6 months of testing to build a baseline prior to competition on a world/protour team and he managed to get the UCI to waive this before his comeback (I think he only announced it a few months before the tour iirc).

Armstrong rode two comeback tours. UCI didn't see anything untoward in his profile, USADA used it to drive a truck through. But, yes, he didn't have the full 6 months (he rode the TdU in, what, January without the requisite period?).

And let's not forget TUEs, the sanctioned use of PEDs in cycling. it can never be truly drug free with this going on. Surprising the amount of asthma sufferers within procycling ranks! It's great to see it never held them back...

Clean? Not a chance. Cleaner? Maybe, but I doubt it.

And a lot cleaner than many other sports as well IMO.

I just watch the tour for the spectacle and assume they are all juiced. At the level of the Tour de France it's big business, it's no longer sport.

They're all using Cilit Bang these days....

I'd love to believe they were all clean but have to admit to scepticism when I see how Nibbles is performing. He has that unbelievable vigour that riders like Armstrong and Pantani were showing as they romped up the Alps. More discrete and low-key for sure but it's the freshness of the man that makes me suspect.

Well................ I can't see that these pro's are producing significantly more power than the local riders that I ride with - where as if you look at Pantani's Watts per KG they are just mental. That's what I'm basing my assumption on. Ten dam's was 5.6 today - this isn't beyond the realms of possibility by any standards, not sure what race you were watching.

globalti + 1 - as we watched Nibali ride away from the others last night I remarked that while I hope he's just *that* good, I can't help but be reminded of Good ol' Lance doing the same up Alpe d'Huez..

Yer he road away from them, but if they were putting out 5.6 watts per kg and he was putting out 6.5 for a few mins then it would of looked the same as Armstrong riding away from riders putting out 6.5 whilst he put out 8 W/kg. The speed and power looks lower than it used to. Look at Valverde and Armstrong up Corchevel, that's EPO and oxygen vector drugs at work, I'd say that if there's any doping today then it's minimal at best, not enough to add the 15+% to W/KG as before.

when I see how Nibbles is performing. He has that unbelievable vigour that riders like Armstrong and Pantani were showing as they romped up the Alps

his performance are not remarkable at all beyond him being the best at the race.

IMHO cycling will be cleaner than at any time in its history and cleaner than most sports.
Due to LA every one who wins [ unless it is Wiggo coz we love him] faces this same inquisition.
Nibbles performance was nothing like LA performance on L'alpe [ PS panatani holds the record time for an ascent of it - see point above about knowing the sport]

as above, with the arrow thing. Thanks to accessibility to riders data that we have now I am beginning to believe that it's pretty much drug free.

And I was the biggest skeptic out there. I've raced bikes.

My worry concerning Nibali yesterday was that he made it look easy, he wasn't breathing hard as he pulled away. Look at some of the riders behind him and the effort they are putting in. I did wonder if he was doing 'just enough'.

Of course what doesn't help Nibali is his DS, Vino, who has previous. Maybe not fair on Nibali but harder to have confidence in him.

Suspect it is cleaner but I really don't know how much.

You do know about the sport you are commenting on?

Sadly, it's the sport that history has proved to be riddled with cheaters, so can't blame the above posters for thinking it continues. I look at Nibali and think he's one of the best all round riders I've ever seen-given his current form I believe he'd give LA at the height of his drug fuelled career a run for his money. But I am an optimist.

are you kidding?
Two points
1. yes the ebst rider will put in less effot. If we were to try to stay with them we wuld be breathign a lot more than the peleton. It wont mean they all cheat it will mean they are fitter and stronger than us
2. Did you not see him recovering when he bridged the gap? sat behind and had clearly red lined to do that.
Once a year you watch a race and ,feign expertise on the subject, and say the winner [ unless cool and british] is a druggie.

Nibali's mainly ahead in the Tour because of stage five though, which looked more about commitment and tactics than pure power.

And as has been pointed out, he's racing against second-string rivals now.

The only high-profile rider I'd point the finger at recently is Horner, and he appears to have toned it down now anyway.

Damn shame Froome and Bertie are both out though, imagine how good yesterday's stage could've been.

I'll freely admit I know little - I was never a fan of road racing, have gronw to like it recently and have recently read a few cycling (auto)biographies such as David Millar, Lance, Wegelius and Tyler Hamilton. Yes, I know Pantani holds the record up alpe d'huez but he didnt pull comtemptuously away fro the others - or am I thinking of mont ventoux? As I just said I dont claim to be an oracle, and I know Nibali is current this that and the other champ but he seemed to be riding at the same level he's been riding all week while the rest of the field - including let's not forget Richie Porte who at the bottom of that climb was lying second - were quite frankly blowing out of their arses.

I can accept and applaud his win, but the way he cruised through the pack, then caught and passed both the chase group and the leaders just puts that little doubt in my mind.

Did you not see him recovering when he bridged the gap? sat behind and had clearly red lined to do that.

Exactly, he didn't just accelerate away from them for the rest of the stage, he pulled out a 30 second lead and then slowed back, if Valverde and Pinot (it was him, right?) had attacked then they'd possibly have hauled him back but Valverde didn't want to go. After Nibali had slowed for a while and recovered he was able to put in another small dig on a much less steep part of the climb and take another few seconds out of two rivals who were more concerned with marking each other.

Nibali has suddenly found form after not having the best of seasons and coming under pressure from his team management. Seems to be finding these climbs a little to easy so you do get suspicious when riders seem streets ahead of their rivals. Today's stage will be interesting to see if Nibali toys with the other GC guys again. I have my doubts hope I'm proved wrong though.

I can accept and applaud his win, but the way he cruised through the pack, then caught and passed both the chase group and the leaders just puts that little doubt in my mind.

Don't forget that he was protected all day and his w/kg were pretty average. Looked good, but only when compared with like for like. (IMHO)

No but it's way cleaner than it was and I would say a lot cleaner than most sports purely down to the amount of testing including out of competition,
Just look at how much doping there is in rugby
[url= http://www.ukad.org.uk/anti-doping-rule-violations/current-violations/ ]http://www.ukad.org.uk/anti-doping-rule-violations/current-violations/[/url]

The only high-profile rider I'd point the finger at recently is Horner

Porte had a bay day at the office but he is not a top drawer cyclist anyway.

The sports real problem is everytime the race is on we have this discussion

Its the sports fault we have to do this though and not the contributors on here - for example I dont believe Horner was clean so we all do it.

IMHO you do not see the ridicolous stuff of old when they would sprint up 2000m ascents of 18 km in 30 minutes after 15) km on day 22 of the race. that was super human

In fairness I was only watching highlights so they may not have shown any recovery periods or so on

its on eurosport now so you will see his attack and then when he bridges he clearly rests/recovers

As I said it is the sport that did this to itself [ sorry for being a bit grumpy with you]

Everybody is bent.
[img] [/img]

There is no such thing as a clean sport.
Never has been, never will be.

no sport is clean.. from the amateurs to the pros there will always be people who are juicing.

That one is hard to explain...no one gets faster and stronger as they eneter their 40's

Speak for yourself, mate. I can down my food and drink way better than I used to, both in speed and quantity.

Nibali has suddenly found form after not having the best of seasons and coming under pressure from his team management.

Built his whole season around peaking for the Tour, so not a surprise that he wasn't on great form for some of the other races. As has been said before, he came into the Dauphine off of a massive training block so not surprised he was a bit off the pace. All about periodisation.

The whole Vino thing is a disappointment. Nibali chose to sign for that team, knowing the staff and who was involved. Though Vino is I believe a very popular figure amongst the peloton.

Is the sport clean? Unlikely. But I'm inclined to think it's having less of an impact that it did during the Armstrong era.

That one is hard to explain...no one gets faster and stronger as they eneter their 40's

Not altogether uncommon in endurance sports. I think it's more a case of how many years of professional sports the body can take, rather than it just being an age thing (though I think your body does stop producing things it needs for speedy recovery around about the 40 mark, though each individual is different.) At club level it's pretty common to see vets going just as quick as the younger guys.

It's been pointed out before around these parts, but as long as the team cars are loaded with dopers, the sport will not be clean.
Not to say it isn't cleaner than many, if not most other sports nowadays.

Though Vino is I believe a very popular figure amongst the peloton.

I guess that you didn't watch the few minutes after then finish at the London Olympics then!

I stand by my assertion that the power outputs this year are highly credible in terms of being achievable and only put themselves a touch above cat 1 levels - which Is where they should be.

Sure there is cheating, there is in cat 4, 3, 2, 1, elite and pro I know, I've seen it, or at least heard about it. But I believe at the top it now at least looks pretty credible in terms of what is humanly achievable without PED's.

The most significant change for me is that even where riders [i]are [/i]doping, there's good evidence to suggest that they're gaining less benefit from it. The playing field may not be perfectly level but it's getting closer all the time - I personally think it's level enough that clean athletes are competitive.

Oh good, at last a thread that can contain speculation, conjecture, gossip, questioning, desk jockey logic, bored teenage musings, prattle and plain nosey recriminations on the state of Pro Cycling.

Perfect, keep it all in here and stop poisoning Realmans threads, ta.

It's not just Vino that's the problem for me. It's the team management (including Vino), sponsors, their hiring history and their culture of 'dealmaking'.
As someone else pointed out, if Nibali was keen to display his cleanliness, why would you go to Astana?

It's also not that I'm 100% sure they're doping. It's just that I've lost the ability to look at a stage like that and enjoy it. I find myself thinking more about the credibility of the riders than I do enjoying the tactics.

Oh good, at last a thread that can contain speculation, conjecture, gossip, questioning, desk jockey logic, bored teenage musings, prattle and plain nosey recriminations on the state of Pro Cycling.

Can you elaborate?

No, it's not anywhere near clean.
Any pro sport that is 90% biological ability and mental fortitude that has big money involved is likely to be bent.

Sports that require skill are less likely to benefit from doping to the same extent.
You can take as much epo as you like but it's unlikely to make yo into a Wimbledon champion or a golden boot winner if you were only previously mediocre.

I think along the same lines as most who have commented, its rife in most sports, I'm sure they are cleaning up their act slowly but as has been said each generation gets a cheat sheet and develops a method to stay a season ahead,
I do know that when the lance Armstrong debacle hit that Rugby Union did get a warning that they were next and quite a few of the International side shrank in size,

From a personal point of view two blokes I went to school with have had their sons excel in their chosen sport, one played rugby for Northampton Saints and England in their youth development programme and when he came of age his parents were told in NO uncertain terms that the transition into a professional player would involve performance enhancing drugs, he's now binned that idea and gone to Uni.

The other has a career in Pro cycling and rides for Team SKY,

It's been suggested that footballers, certain tennis players and other sporting legends have been less successfull of late and now that playing field has also been levelled a bit.

I think that's a misconception jota - I think tennis, football, etc all used EPO at the same time as cyclists did. It brought the same advantages (i.e. a doped athlete/team was able to beat non-doped).

As I recall both Wiggins and Froome in their respective win years were questioned about possible doping. Has this been done with Nibali? I'd like to see what he says.

The main bone of contention here is the definition of "clean" and the OP is simply being a bit more pragmatic than some of the sceptics.

Of course none of us can really know, but in my mind the sport does appear to have reached a tipping point where doping is the exception rather than the rule - and riders like Horner and that guy who blitzed the Tour of Turkey stick out like a sore thumb.

100% nibali's performance on stage 13 was achievable by guys that I ride with (on their slacker Sunday rides) that don't dope, that for me makes think that this tour isn't the usual BS. I can't see where there has been any show of the bad old days.

No, it's not anywhere near clean.
Any pro sport that is 90% biological ability and mental fortitude that has big money involved is likely to be bent.

Sports that require skill are less likely to benefit from doping to the same extent.
You can take as much epo as you like but it's unlikely to make yo into a Wimbledon champion or a golden boot winner if you were only previously mediocre

obviously you are dismissing the doping for injury recovery and fitness over the course of a tennis match/ football game doesn't matter, EPO isn't the only option for dopers

I'd look at the twin factors of the money involved and the testing regime in any sport to decide how likely it is happening in any sport/ country

Heart = Yes

Head = No

nibali's performance on stage 13 was achievable by guys that I ride with

Have you considered explaining to them that they could have a career in pro cycling?

They do ride somewhat professionally, but not proteam. But they don't get paid nearly as much as the guys that you see in the tour! A couple of them work in bike shops to supplement their income.

The saddest thing about all of it- including Lance, is that these guys are still incredible athletes carrying out super-human feats. The volume of miles they're putting in both in comp and in training is mind boggling.

It's too easy for us to pass judgement. Imagine reaching the pinicle of your chosen profession and discovering that all the guys at the top have an edge on you- you either copy them or resign yourself to mediocrity.
I'm not condoning cheating but I think the riders (Lance excluded this time) were in the most part victims.

I don't know enough about the current crop to comment but it's fair to assume the rules will be being pushed to the absolute limit.

I say let them dope! Imagine the spectacle of 200 vein-popping Mr Muscles roaring up The Alps at 20mph 😀

I think cycling is clean these days, the difference between it and other sports is that they publicly admonish any cheats. They actively find cheats, with small traces of banned substances. How many other sports can you say the same of. Football, when do you hear of a drug cheat? How many thousands play it professionally and there is hardly ever a player found cheating. I read that Tottenham used blood spinning techniques for recovery under Villas-Boas. How true that is I do not know, but interesting.

For me, cycling is the ultimate endurance sport but there will always be cheats. I find it refreshing that cycling actively seeks the cheats out and shames them.

So we think Nibali is clean then? Even though he had the edge over at least two proven dopers.

Always sceptical but no way I'm letting it ruin my enjoyment now, if they get popped later then it's later.

I don't see Nibali's performance yesterday as anything but credible, he's always had an incredible poker face (even when he's getting dropped, go watch last years Vuelta) and it wasn't like he was smashing in 30-40 second out of the saddle attacks over and over, it was a steady diesel up and just rode 'em off his wheel. Go and watch a few races, every single solo racer I've ever seen win manages to compose themselves for the line, it's all part of the game.

Can you elaborate?

Look at the uk anti doping link I posted, Rugby has a massive doping problem but it's always cycling that gets picked as an example of doping in sport. Unfortunately the culture of lance Armstrong has left a bad smell around cycling that while it was deserved it is very different now with the blood passport and out of competition testing, most other sports are way behind in this respect.

Even though he had the edge over at least two proven dopers.

Usain Bolt should be very nervous as he beats loads and his sport is full of cheats...tbh he always looked relaxed as well and wins with ease so he must be guilty as well then 🙄

hey junkyard, see this "?" it's what you put at the end of a sentence if it's a question.

"So we think Nibali is clean then? Even though he had the edge over at least two proven dopers."

The above was my complete post just in case you missed the whole thing.
I'll take from your post that you consider him clean.

I quoted your statement [ not your question]which appears to suggest you are doubtful he is clean, are you ?

Junky,

I'm not sure but I'd like him to be, also the proven guilty to be clean now. I have no doubt there are cheaters (there always will be) in the race but hope it ain't any of the big hitters.

Have not trusted Valverde since his bust (no real reason) though for some reason think Contador may now be clean, am prepared to admit to being some what delusional. I'd wanted Armstrong to clean but gave up on that thought a couple of wins in, now look at all the top riders and start with the negative thoughts. I do tend to give credence to those that will say they are clean (yes I know Armstrong did that).

suppose am just a little fed up that I have to keep explaining to my non cycling friends that everyone is not on the juice and get proven wrong.

Sorry to ramble.

I share your views we hope but then even the most optimistic struggle with Horner for example- I struggle to think he was clean given the results before , his age and his previous team mates.

I also think Bertie is clean these days but I was massively disappointed that he doped and he is certainly not as dominant as before.

i think the big hitters these days [ and wiggo and cadel] are clean.

Nibali will have won all three and I think he is just a great cyclist [ helped by the absence of the main contenders

I agree re Valverde

Pro sport clean - what an odd question?

So what about Rafael Mijka? He was in the break all day and still won. Is he doping?

Always suspected Bolt myself - he has the quickest time of all time and the next 9 have all been busted for drugs - seems a bit odd to me.

Nadal was another who stuck out, rather too good at recovering for my liking, almost as if he had a bag of blood before the next match, interesting how susceptible to injuries he has become.

i must confess I hope Nibali isn't doping but his day in day out smashing of the opposition does call that into question.

Pro sport clean - what an odd question?

Indeed it would be, if anyone had asked it 🙄

Well no-one has been caught this tour so it must be !

Having watched yesterdays stage the doubts are building for me on Nibali. I'd like to see him put on the spot at a press conference as Wiggins, Froome or even Armstrong was. I'd like to see how he deals with it.

Nibali has been asked about doping in his press conferences for the past week. This has included questions about his alleged — but proven to be false -- connections to Michele Ferrari. I'm not sure if you would count that as being "put on the spot" but the questions are there. For what it's worth he deals with it (in Italian) at length and very well. The Cycling Podcast have talked about this a couple of times.

Watts per Kilo is interesting way of looking at how they perform at the moment but it really only tells us that they aren't putting out the power of the LA / Pantani days. It doesn't tells us if they are clean & I would also hazard a guess that if they are using then they will be doing everything possible to stay away from those high numbers. I think we have to remember that PED aren't simply effecting your performance on the day but also how you recover from it If Nibali wins that TDF without one chink in his armour then I would seriously have my doubts.

Racing up alpine climbs with your mouth almost closed doesn't help either 🙂

Nibali's competition crashed out. He may or may not be a doper but i won't read anything suspicious into it if he comfortably wins the tour.

Got any links to his interviews/press conferences please. Not seen him being interviewed other than a brief one on ITV4 at a stage end.

Usain Bolt should be very nervous as he beats loads and his sport is full of cheats

He certainly should be yes!

You do know he won the Vueleta and the Giro as well. Basically he is one of the best climbers in the world and one of the best cyclists

On this, it's also worth noting that he placed well in the junior world TT championships whilst still amateur and he's been placing top ten and higher in races since he turned pro at the age of 20. He's not just seen a recent surge in form, and his grand tour wins have all been in years where he's clearly targeted them.

Got any links to his interviews/press conferences please. Not seen him being interviewed other than a brief one on ITV4 at a stage end.

Listen to The Cycling Podcast. They have discussed it a lot.

The reason you probably haven't seen it reported much is a) Nibali's perfromance is much less remarkable than Froome's last year, b) Nibali's interviews are all in Italian so don't make pithly soundbites on UK television c) He has dealt with all the questions in a very sensible and open way and has been willing to discuss it d) The Armstrong story hasn't just broken.

Daniel Freibe who is a jounalist on the Cycling Podcast speaks fluent Italian and has therefore picked up on this and reported back.

Looking at Stage 10 which he "dominated", he came in 15 secs ahead of 2nd place and 20 secs ahead of 3rd and 4th after 4.5 hours of racing. That's less than .1% faster than his rivals. His win on stage 13 was even closer.

Both Valverde and Contador have both stated that this year they were climbing faster than before their bans (note: they refuse to acknowlegde they cheated and thats why they were banned, just pre/post ban, not "now I've stopped cheating")

But is there any evidence this is actually true? I.e. do any of Contadors recent performamces even come close to his speed on the climb to Verbier, because if they do then that opens up some very sizeable questions, but I suspect he may feel faster but is actually faster.

Graph of shame: TdF climbing records
[img] [/img]

I don't like graphs like that - they look to simplify something that is influenced by a far greater number of factors than just drugs. For example, Contadors Verbier climb was done the day after a flat stage and the day before his rest day - he arguably buried himself in that climb (it's worth noting that wiggins was only a minute behind). Whereas Pantani's Alpe D'Huez climb in 1995 was done the day after a big mountain day where he should arguably have been knackered as one of the youngest riders in that tour.

I'm not saying it's not an interesting graph, & I would suggest that the author has carefully selected who he/she has included based on a personal axe to grind (as mentioned Wiggins was only a minute behind so I'm guessing he should've also been included) it's just no more than food for thought than outright proof of anyone doping (I know they did/do but seriously, there's more to winning a race).

no. I'm not watching this charade any more.