[Closed] Is it unreasonable to expect bike companies to know their own product?

they don't what to be held to a quoted weight

Weight is a big thing for a lot of folk when purchasing and it annoys me how very few companies dont quote weight yet most reviews of components/bikes will have weight. Take 5 of the same size and spec, weigh, find average, state likely variation for smaller/larger sizes

I'm sure they'd know the weight for the bike, but a weight for an individual component? That's OTT.

Try emailing BMW and asking how much the wishbones weigh.

Frame and forks are hardly things like wishbones. Its not really an unrealistic expectation to expect a company to be able to state the weight of these .

Funny thing is, I bet BMW *do* know.

Not your local dealer, obvs, but somewhere back in Germany they'll know.

Not weight related, but I emailed 2 people at Mavic enquiring about an ERD size and got 2 different answers. Still waiting for head office to confirm.

I'd put money on BMW knowing what a wishbone weighs. And every component.

They do know, its probably heavy compared to its competitor thats why they dont say imo.

It's funny that most Steel HT frames have weight stated but anything Alu they seem to struggle. Carbon is always stated too. Try finding out the weight of an Orange FS. Almost impossible.

When I worked for a bike brand people used to ask what the weights were but we didn't have any scales that were more accurate than plus / minus 100g... and didn't care.

I'd suspect a new company with a five frame range that only started up yesterday could quite easily have a weight with a quoted error margin and if they have the same people working there and the systems to maintain the database and never change tubing supplier or manufacturing techniques then it might work.

In the real world of large companies, records go missing, procedures fail and people leave. Someone like Cannondale with a range for years of bikes might not have the info. If they publish for newer bikes then someone will complain they don't have them for an obscure frame from 1992. If a range changes part way through and they use a different batch of tubing then the weight may change.

It's one of those things that sounds simple but has far too many sources of error to be a published figure that some irritating customer, obsessed with weight down to the nearest g, will try and hold them to.

Just look at anything on the Giant site and they have a weight disclaimer as well.

I have had bad experiences with Surface, which is Charge's clothing arm, if a company isn't communicative what does that tell you about after sales? Lots of other lovely steel manufacturers out there. Have you considered Cotic? Cy and Paul are great guys who are super informative. I have thoroughly enjoyed giving them my money over the years and not once felt disappointed.

I love the image of skinny wee weight weenies shaking their tiny fists in anger at uncooperative bike companies.

I would imagine they would know the weight of their frames

BMW know what every component in the car weighs.
They won't tell you tho. Because it's irrelevant.
If you need to find out, go and buy a wishbone.

Cannondale know how much their frames weigh, but there is a fair bit of variation (hand layups), then they paint them, more variation. (white paint weighs more for example)

Then they sell them to annoying people who strip the bike down to it's component parts and then moan about the frame not meeting the nominal weight that the manufacturer might have given. (Or the quoted minimum weight for a small frame with no paint, Colnago, i'm looking at you)

Or they moan that it's 200 grams lighter than the (top limit) weight quoted, so it must be weaker and more fragile.

Just easier to not say anything.

Someone on the net will have stripped one down and complained about the weight, just google it.

Charge are silent for a reason, their stuff weighs more than a battleship. No one buys their products because they are lightweight.

Cannondale I'm slightly surprised they didn't give you a rough figure.

But I do think bike companies are wary as others will rig their figures to get a sale. Probably the best bet is looking on a site like Weightweenies.

Can i ask why you need to know?

Cannondale know how much their frames weigh, but there is a fair bit of variation (hand layups), then they paint them, more variation. (white paint weighs more for example)

Then they sell them to annoying people who strip the bike down to it's component parts and then moan about the frame not meeting the nominal weight that the manufacturer might have given. (Or the quoted minimum weight for a small frame with no paint, Colnago, i'm looking at you)

Or they moan that it's 200 grams lighter than the (top limit) weight quoted, so it must be weaker and more fragile.

Just easier to not say anything.

Someone on the net will have stripped one down and complained about the weight, just google it.

This +1, although I suspect variations are smaller than that. Things like pre-preg carbon cloth will be very accurately made and cut, and part of QC will be to weigh the frames so they can tell if a sheet's been left out.

Essentially it boils down to:
1) You care so much about weight that you'll buy the lightest regardless, so what's the point in them telling you as 9/10 times you'll know of something lighter. if they don't tell you they've a chance you'll convince yourself you're actually number 2 below.
2) You don't care about the weight and happy to accept that a well designed bike rides well regardless of weight.

I'd put money on BMW knowing what a wishbone weighs. And every component.

Not anyone you could email to ask. Or anyone you could email could email...

"We* don't have any idea what the weight** is".

[i]they[/i] do know, but the person who you communicated with didn't, neither did any of the 5 people within earshot (if they were trying hard to help)

* someone within the company will know, but it's unlikely to be the same person who answers random queries form the public.

** it'll also vary with frame size and to some degree within batches, and probably don't want to be held to that answer if quoted to Mr Joe Public as it creates problems when Mrs Joanna Public then makes a complaint as her frame is 8g heavier.

Smaller (and non US in my experience) manufacturers are often a lot more co-operative, the only time you get the big boys quoting weights is when it's a top end model and astonishingly low and they want to brag about it.

*Becomes obsessed with BMW wishbone weights....

So does anybody have a BMW wishbone they could weigh to put us all out of our misery?

If they do any frame testing then it would make sense to weigh the frame and keep the data.

I think the whole 'we don't want to be held to it' thing is a cop out.

I agree it would be unrealistic to print an exact weight, but I don't think +/-100g should matter.

As an example I'm toying with my 'dream build' road/gravel bike at the moment, I could choose to spend £400 extra on a Genesis Datum frame with cheaper wheels, or go for the Kinesis 4S Disc with fancier wheels. Knowing the weight of the Datum frame would help but I can't find it anywhere, +/-100g wouldn't matter, +/-300g would make me think..

Also I'd love to know if the (aluminium) Charge Plug Singlespeed is lighter than the steel Genesis Day 0...

https://infopart.org/bmw-31126758520sb-part

I think the whole 'we don't want to be held to it' thing is a cop out.

I agree it would be unrealistic to print an exact weight, but I don't think +/-100g should matter.

I still ride an assortment of horrendously out of date steel and titanium frames, so obviously i don't care either......

That's euro numbers by the 3,700 kg means 3.700 kg.

I guess the short answer is that it's contentious...

...the long answer is that even if there's a +/- 20g variance in the weight of a Shimano XT crankset depending on the manufacturing batch then the variances for a frame and fork will be greater. I bought a complete bike from a well known manufacturer which was close to it's advertised weight, however the (manufacturer's own brand) tyres and tubes were too fragile to be of any practical use on anything but smooth, dusty trails.

I think the problem is that many bike companies blatantly lie about weight. Other companies have two choices if they don't want to seem heavy next to competitors; lie or don't quote it. I think that could be the reason.

Except to many many many people, it really really does.

D'oh, agreed! I meant to say 'I don't think +/-100g should matter, so the manufacturer should caveat the printed weight with +/-100g'.

But I guess even supplying a ballpark weight would open them up to complaints, but if they can't guarantee a product within 100g or so of their printed weight then you have to start asking questions about their QC...

I read this on the giant website a few days ago. I think its under the weight category in the full spec list for every bike they produce.

Weight:
The most accurate way to determine any bike’s weight is to have your local dealer weigh it for you. Many brands strive to list the lowest possible weight, but in reality weight can vary based on size, finish, hardware and accessories. All Giant bikes are designed for best-in-class weight and ride quality.

Doesn't help the armchair shoppers though does it Andysredmini? 😉

I've been playing fantasy bike build recently while waiting for numerous injuries to heal. It would be tyre kicking to a criminal degree to go and ask a shop to weigh a frame that in all likelihood I'll never buy... 🙄

Can i ask why you need to know?

I want to know the weight of my frame without stripping it down and the weight of a frame I may be swapping it out for. LBS who is a cannondale dealer knew the weight (they sell the frame separately so it's not unreasonable someone may ask).

TBH I always assume that if something's not got a weight quoted on it, it's because they don't want to admit how heavy it is. More so if it says "lightweight" but doesn't quote a weight. I'm sure there's exceptions but if it's a good weight, that's a bragging point for your marketeers.

What gets me more is things like geometry. I asked a manufacturer for a reach figure on one of their frames, they said they don't know. How do you make/commission a bike without knowing this? Or are they not confident that the production bike is the same as the design spec? And if a customer asks, and you inexplicably don't know, get a blimmin tape measure and find out.

Would be useful to know for car rack max weight loading I guess.

At least they were honest. 😆
In a company like Cannodale I imagine whoever got the job of answering your email probably reached for a fact sheet for that frame, didn't get the answer he/she wanted and replied accordingly.

https://infopart.org/bmw-31126758520sb-part

With big production, high-end frames (and whole bikes for that matter) the weight tolerance is minuscule and they know the average and the extremes.

The reason they don't want to tell you is that they're afraid of one thing: weights based an unreasonably "naked" frames. Either they'll be accused of measuring a frame that is unreasonably stripped down, or they're afraid that's exactly what their competitors are doing, and of the unfair comparisons that might be made.

I've never seen anyone breakdown frame weights listed by size and what EXACTLY was "on" the frame when measured.

For example: Yeti list the Arc C frame at 1170g - but don't say what size that's for - It's definitely NOT the Medium 29er with the hanger, axle, ISCG cap, routing ferrules, seat clamp, chainstay & downtube protector, etc. - as that's what I have, and it weighs closer to 1400g

[quote=Stoner > https://infopart.org/bmw-31126758520sb-part
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Kind of heavy then - do you think they do a titanium one?

[quote=Northwind ]TBH I always assume that if something's not got a weight quoted on it, it's because they don't want to admit how heavy it is.

Strangely enough I got a Smorgasbord tyre a while ago and was nearly put off by their description which was something like "if you're worried about weight you won't like it" when actually it's quite a decent weight for a "freeride" tyre. I'm guessing at the time they just didn't know, or weights weren't consistent enough to quote (I've just checked and they do now list a weight, which is pretty accurate).

Kind of heavy then - do you think they do a titanium one?