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The IOM Gov is running a consultation on eBikes and eScooters
One interesting aspect that I can see in here is that they wish to change the designation of bicycles from one based on engine power, to one based on if it is a pedal assist or not.
So in those terms, a L1e-B bike (pedal assist, max 4000w, max assist speed 45kph) would be a bicycle rather than a moped.
What are your thoughts on this change?
I can see what they are trying to do with regards to commuting etc, but a 4kw pedal assist is crazy amount of power.
One point of concern for this would be for off road riding, and MTB as this is allowing a lot more powerful bikes in, and resulting in more energy and speed on trails etc.
Not sure if you have noticed but the IOM have a history of quite liking speed, especially on 2 wheels.
Hard not to notice, but that is not the same as people riding a massively powerful ebike on a shared space like the Douglas Prom.
I get the desire to get more people out of cars, but I kind of feel they are not thinking of all the potential conflict points.
My council has been running an eScooter rental trial. I've been using them and they are great, but it has highlighted that they need to restrict the user base to people with a brain. Passed a guy in the dark completely dressed in black, with his foot over the rear light, headphones on and looking at his phone the other day. Luckily he was weaving all over the road so I spotted him
Is it really massively powerful though? I get that it’s more than is available now, but it still requires sustained pedalling to get to anything like it’s top speed. I think it would be a good way to get people out of cars, which is the real prize. And since the IoM is self contained seems as good a place as any to try...
It's one to recognise something as a class of vehicle, its quite another to then apply appropriate regulation and/or licencing to it. But that reads like a bit of cheerleading for E-bikes/scooters with as little control or regulation as possible...
The other thing to note is that 4Kw+ E-bikes do already exist. Every other semi-retired electrician on youtube or Deliverooist seems to be lashing one together from an old BSO and some far-east sourced leccy bits. I suppose it's more constructive to recognise and regulate these things rather than legislate them out of existence...
Is it really massively powerful though? I get that it’s more than is available now, but it still requires sustained pedalling to get to anything like it’s top speed. I think it would be a good way to get people out of cars, which is the real prize. And since the IoM is self contained seems as good a place as any to try…
Well is the goal to use the IOM as a mini trial, iron the kinks out, then apply it nationwide?
Or is this just the IOM doing something because some of the inhabitants have specifically asked for it?
Also the thing isn't just about "power" it's the potential for injury/death to the user and others due to the extra speed. Most people don't tend to get significantly above 20mph on a push bikes in towns or cities, let alone brush 30, so what are the credible risks? A collision with a pedestrian at 45kph rather than 25kph carries more risk (as in likelihood of injury or death) for both parties involved. I can see issues mixing 4kw E-bikes in with normal bikes/peds on shared use infrastructure. It's one thing to let someone loose in Douglas on a 4kw ped-elec, is it as "safe" in central Brum/Manchester/London?
Personally I have concerns about 4kw/45kph capable E-bikes operated, potentially without any training, in a busy town or city. Having seen the standard of operation already being applied to E-scooters in a similar setting I foresee collisions and injury. Whether or not licencing is appropriate is another question, the IOM proposal seems to think not.
Plus purely selfishly I don't want higher powered E-bikes conflating in the public mind with normal bikes or even less powerful E-bikes, the negative feedback/stories/outcomes are entirely predictable...
Plus purely selfishly I don’t want higher powered E-bikes conflating in the public mind with normal bikes or even less powerful E-bikes, the negative feedback/stories/outcomes are entirely predictable…
giving the green light to 4kW 30mph beasts legislates 250W 15mph bikes out of existance - because why would you have such a slow thing to deliver takeaway food or make a nuisance of yourself on the highstreet.
Just like americans have no use for 125cc motorcycles.
Hopefully then the general public will be able to distinguish them from a normal bike.
And of course, 250W bikes will still exist for the hobby mtber to keep up with their fitter mates, and will fly under the radar of the moaners whose ire will be directed at the high power e bikes.
Is it really massively powerful though?
4kw is 50cc moped territory (hence I guess 45km/h limit, the moped limit is 50km/h).
Also the thing isn’t just about “power” it’s the potential for injury/death to the user and others due to the extra speed. Most people don’t tend to get significantly above 20mph on a push bikes in towns or cities,
I'd argue "most" don't do much over 10mph (bear in mind the majority are people getting from A->B on BSO's, not the club run passing through on a Sunday).
I'm staying in Liverpool city center overlooking the high street at the moment, the Delieroo/Stuart/Uber/Just Eat riders congregate just outside as it's a busy area for Takeaways, it's pretty dicey a night with ~30 of them zipping up and down the pedestrianized streets at moped speeds. I mean I wouldn't walk down the main road with headphones on, but it felt a bit dangerous on what's supposed to be a pedestrianized area last night!
We probably need some perspective here; a 4000 Watt bike is still many of orders of magnitude less dangerous to other road users than a car.
We probably need some perspective here; a 4000 Watt bike is still many of orders of magnitude less dangerous to other road users than a car.
agreed, but a 4kw e-bike is an order of magnitude more dangerous than a normal bicycle (or a 250w E-bike). And cars for all their faults at least come with some legal/regulatory framework to manage the inherent risks; operator training is mandatory, a minimum standard of safe maintenance and function is mandatory and enforceable by law.
The IOM proposal appears to think pretty much any sort of controls on E-bikes able to travel at higher speed would "be counterproductive to the Government’s Active Travel Policy." The only limitation seems to be age based (you'll need to be over 16 for a 4kw pedelec). Is that sufficient? It seems the IOM gets to find first out and can then report to the rest of us.
No need for 4kw to do 45kmh, when i had my ebike chipped it could do that with the standard amount of power. (All my chip did was remove the limiter)
Having used a fs Ebike, complete with 200/180 discs, 45kmh is very much at the upper end of speed to be safe without beefing up the brakes/forks to small motorcycle levels.
It’s one thing to momentarily hit that speed (which anyone on a normal bike could do in a sprint/downhill) but quite another to cruise along at that.
I’m all for reasonable measures to get people out of cars, especially for the shorter, highly polluting journeys, but, as @chrishc777 has noted above, a brain is required.
Well is the goal to use the IOM as a mini trial, iron the kinks out, then apply it nationwide?
Or is this just the IOM doing something because some of the inhabitants have specifically asked for it?
“Applying it nationwide” isn’t relevant, because the Isle of Man isn’t part of that UK anyway....
As for some of us having asked for it - no, I don’t think that’s the case. It’s another “vanity project” type of thing, like spending 1.3 million to repair a couple of old railway viaducts to form part of a “heritage trail”.
All the while bleating that “we have no money”.
Getting more people onto bikes is mainly done through infrastructure, not giving them a bigger motor. For the eScooters, there is no way the average user us zipping along the road on one of those, so you are putting people on a 30kph scooter onto the pavement with pedestrians. To me, this is a distraction from the real solutions of real, separated infrastructure.
“Applying it nationwide” isn’t relevant, because the Isle of Man isn’t part of that UK anyway….
Thanks for that clarification. I was going to make the same point, as it was mentioned a couple of times but wasn't ENTIRELY sure I was correct.
I’ve done the same commute on a Levo and a 50cc scooter but the latter stays on the road all the way (no jumping off interesting things or using bike lanes). Even though that scooter was a restricted (legally ridden on a car license) 4 stroke one, so as slow as they can be, on the flat and uphill it was a lot faster than the ebike. I doubt it was 4kW either, maybe 4 bhp on a good day.
It would be madness for anyone to be able to legally take a similarly powerful ebike down a bike lane or bridleway!
“For the eScooters, there is no way the average user us zipping along the road on one of those”
I saw one today take the strangest route along what may have looked like the correct side of a two way road but was actually the right hand lane of a one way road being ridden backwards, as I rode my bike along the bike path that’s on the adjoining pavement, in the same direction as him.
Getting more people onto bikes is mainly done through infrastructure
+1000
they need to restrict the user base to people with a brain
Excellent. If only this couple be applied to all forms of transport.
Getting more people onto bikes is mainly done through infrastructure
But that's a utopian dream that isn't going to happen. Lets look at easy win stuff and get people out there.