[Closed] Interesting headset problem (tapered steerer, carbon 456)

Bump for the weekday crowd, being as I seem to have stumped the weekenders!

UPDATE
The mods I made seem to have made a difference. I'm not 100% sure the headset is staying tight, but the crack/clunk noise didn't return after a days riding in the Peaks yesterday....

Surely the headtube on the frame is incorrectly made and therefore should be replaced by warranty?

I had some issues with the on-one smoothie and a standard 1 1/8" steerer - difficult to get it go tight and stay that way.

I did wonder whether the Alu inserts in the frame were slightly the wrong size (or the headset cups where the bearings rest in them). I did seem to have to tighten the top cap more than I have on other frames/headsets - not to the point the headset is 'tight' though.

Do they do a +10 or +20 bottom cup version of that headset - woudl adjust the geometry a bit but woudl solve the problem?

Surely the headtube on the frame is incorrectly made and therefore should be replaced by warranty?

Dez, I'm not 100% sure that's so. I can imagine the conversation:

Me - Mr On One, your headtube is too short for a tapered steerer
Mr O O - No it's not. The taper on the steerer is too big

Me - Mr Rockshox, your taper is too long for my bike
Mr O O - No it's not. The headtube is too short

etc etc ad infinitum!

So, I'm in 2 minds as to weather to contact On One or not.....

Me and Cy@Cotic both noticed that there is not actually a specification for the taper on a tapered fork. There's a spec for the diameter at the base and the top, but not a spec for the length of the taper.

Ouch.

A better fix would be an "external" top cup?

Sounds like the short on-one headtube is just a teeensy bit too short for the steerer/headset combo. Although i see it is an on-one branded headset 😆 If you managed to rectify it by filing the inside of the wedge, there must have only been a few mm in it...

I wonder if manufacturers anticipated this arising?

Is there a 'standard' length of taper already set?
ie steerer returns to 1.125" by x mm above the crown, to allow frame and headset makers to plan their own parts.

Peter, what is the length of your headtube? How does that compare to short headtubes on 'normal' frames? Millie has had (small or laydeez) frames with 90-100mm headtubes before, it would be a shame to lose the option of making them so short becasue you wanted to put a tapered steerer in.

[edit] oh, i see lots of you beat me to all that. ^^ Must type faster.

wwaswas, as far as I can see, I'm 100% sure that gold headset taper ring is grounding out on the top of the taper of the steerer.

The only fix I can think of is a taller headset in one way or another, but I don't really want to do that as it'll cost £££ and I have a 7-8 ride old headset already in there.

I do have a King headset knocking around and I'm considering trying the top race from that (No expander wedge in it see!) but I'm a tart and I have a nice looking bike, and I don't want to have a clumpy looking mixed headset and then there's the old 'King HS score steerers thing' as well, and these are 150mm Revs..... 😕

Contact them they may have a suggestion.

Brant, thanks for the advice, I think you're on the same lines as my thinking, but I'm not too familiar with different types of headset. Is that a semi-integrated? What headset are you thinking of? Hope?

Brick, I think I'll drop O-O an email at some point...

I can't believe I'm the only person to have this problem, surely not????

Sounds like the short on-one headtube is just a teeensy bit too short for the steerer/headset combo.

Yep, that's it. I reckon there's 2mm, maybe 3mm in it....

Sorry to see you're having trouble. As Brant says, there's not actually any industry standard as far as we're aware for this. I guess Trek must have tied something down when it was developed, but it's not in the public domain. Only thing I've seen are Fox fork drawings which has a maximum taper length of 95mm from crown seat to taper top. I've not seen any Rock Shox drawings, so I don't know if they conform to this.

With an external cup headset like that with a stack of around 12mm, your head tube would need to be at least 90mm long to fit a Fox fork once you account for top cup clearances. How long's the head tube on that frame?

Me and Cy@Cotic both noticed that there is not actually a specification for the taper on a tapered fork. There's a spec for the diameter at the base and the top, but not a spec for the length of the taper.

Was this new 'standard' created by the same remarkable brains that put together the latest CEN tests? 😉

Cy, I don't know how long the HT is and I'm 100 miles away from the frame until tomorrow night, so I can't measure it quickly...

But it's a 16in frame which equates to a medium on this table here:

http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/FTOOC456MIX/on-one-carbon-456-stick-n-mix-frame-bundle

So it SHOULD be 105mm......

Forks are 150mm Rockshox Revelation RLTs

Thanks for the help, there's no need to say sorry though, it's not your design!!! 🙂

Just measured my 18" frame and it's 105mm.

wwaswas, yes the 16 & 18in frames are listed as 105mm headtubes, so mine should be the same....

[i]Me and Cy@Cotic both noticed that there is not actually a specification for the taper on a tapered fork. [/i]

Man, that is moronic. Trust the bike industry to bring in "standards" that have no standards!!
So glad I have no desire for a new bike (yet)!

I guess Brant is saying that any external headset cup on the top would be high enough up the steerer and mean the 1 1/8th wedge would then fit. Seems to make sense.

Dez, so that's a semi-integrated top cup I have in there yes?

I can just see it looking like a right old lash-up, but I do have a spare FSA top race I can try I think....

It's not good, is it?

I bloody love that bike, it's a flipping hoot to ride, and this is really taking the shine off it right now, but as far as I can see, it's not On One's fault and it's not Rockshox fault. It's just a bunch of arse.

😕

Pretty sure it is - as far as I've worked out (only ever actually [i]used[/i] external headsets), integrated means the bearings are mounted in the frame, semi-integrated have a low pro cup with the bearings 'inside' the frame.
Could be wrong about integrated though!

You can't go having a thread on here and not flame someone in a pointless and improper manner! There are standards to uphold around here you know. Get with it and pick a target - any one - you have mentioned a few!

😡

The easiest solution would probably be to get a thicker crown race made up. On One really should release a solution to this themselves.

Flip, there are [b]5[/b] types now!
http://www.canecreek.com/tech-headsets?view=standards

ok tootall, I dislike the radius on the piping in the background of the picture, there, happy now?
Interesting issue pp not some thing I've come across as yet but then my frame are of the 'gate' variety being a lanky begger.

I dislike the radius on the piping in the background of the picture,

That's my Brother's cellar! How VERY dare you!!! 😉

Andyl, yep, you're right. Where the hell do I get one of those then?

I'm gonna try a different top cup and see when I get the chance, which will be at least Friday, sadly.

No point in effing and jeffing about this, it won't fix the problem. I'm sure it's doable though. I just want it to look neat!

Dez, thanks for the link.

This headset covers 2 of those standards!

I think the top cup is a 'Zero Stack' from the description:

[i]The Zero Stack design offers a low stack height and the security of bearing cups that are hidden inside the head tube. ZS cups are compatible only with specifically machined head tubes and cannot be retrofitted to an existing bike with Traditional headset cups[/i]

I'm now wondering if a normal top cup will actually fit? 😕

Yep: zero-stack = Semi-integrated (hey, why have naming standards if we can't have size standards!)

Good point - the cup might actually be too small. Blimmin flip, what a palava!

angle grinder on the fork steerer time?

The C456 top is 44mm so it is too big for a 'normal' ie 1 1/8th headset top cup.

I wonder if one of the new 44mm external fittings might fit though?

Nukeproof do a range: http://www.shedfire.com/2011/02/19/nukeproof-warhead-headsets/

They have external lower and upper cup options - no idea if they will fit. The external upper would be for 1 1/8th steerer section but look to have a chamfer, the external lower are flush fit which might be better and you would need the straight 1 1/8th tube one but that is a lot of money to splash out to fix a problem which should not exist.

A crown race should be pretty easy to get made, you know the angle on the bearing fitting (written on the bearing) and the internal diameter should be standard (or give the place the old one to measure and tell them it is a press fit). I would get it made out of aluminium though instead of steel to save weight and get it made +5mm.

Another option would be a ring that fits over the existing crown race with a lower inner taper and upper external taper so it works as a crown race spacer. I was messing around with the crown races on my superstar headset (comes with both 1 1/8th and 1.5" lower crown races) doing something similar. Would want a properly machined one to use it though. A bit of Loctite bearing fit would probably be wise on the crown race to spacer interface too.

Dez, yes, I suspect you are right.

--------------------------

New Question:

See that gold alloy taper ring in my pic up there? Well it seems the problem is that it can't seat properly becasue of the small vertical flange below the taper. I've already modified that flange, but whaddaya think would happen if I removed it entirely?

My thinking is that there would ne nothing to get jammed between the bearing and the steerer, and the taper would sit properly where it should on the bearing, with the only issue being (still) the inside face of is not sitting squarely on the steerer.

Can anyone think of any downfalls of removing that flange entirely?

Andy, thanks for confirming my suspicions! 🙂

Another option would be a ring that fits over the existing crown race with a lower inner taper and upper external taper so it works as a crown race spacer. I was messing around with the crown races on my superstar headset (comes with both 1 1/8th and 1.5" lower crown races) doing something similar. Would want a properly machined one to use it though. A bit of Loctite bearing fit would probably be wise on the crown race to spacer interface too.

This has crossed my mind too. I reckon to be safe I'd need to pinch 3mm in total. 1mm spacers under each cup and a 1mm spacer under the crown race would do this, but again, I need to get the spacers. And I'm not 100% sure it's a good idea to have the headset not fully inserted into the frame either....

[i]any downfalls of removing that flange entirely? [/i]

it's designed to fit between the bearing shell and the steerer - if it's not there the steerer would be 'loose' in the shell and you'd be relying wholly on tension fromt he angled bit to locate the steerer in the bearing which doesn't sound like 'a good thing'.

I'm sure on-one must have fitted some tapered forks to one of these frames (albeit that the complete bikes run std tubes) - might be worth just calling them?

This though:
[i]"Me - Mr On One, your headtube is too short for a tapered steerer
Mr O O - No it's not. The taper on the steerer is too big

Me - Mr Rockshox, your taper is too long for my bike
Mr O O - No it's not. The headtube is too short"[/i]

You - well which fork can I fit? And why wasn't I informed I couldn't fit RS forks?

Doesn't help, but it's bloody ridiculous! On-One need to know so that other purchases [i]are[/i] informed.

Just called O-O, waiting for a call back

Yeah you could use 1mm spacers between the frame and the cups top and bottom but I would prefer a thicker crown race.

As for the top ring thing - you need that for the bearing pre-load - this is an important part of the headset.

IMO On One should remedy the situation by releasing an updated part - either a thicker crown race, a deeper lower cup or a slightly less flush upper cup.

Did you get the headtube faced at all? The On One documentation for the C456 is pi$$ poor and they have really annoyed me about it. I did eventually see a mention (either on their site or on their facebook page) that there is no need to face the BB and headtubes - I didn't anyway as my reasoning was they are purpose made fittings so not just tube as part of a welded frame. There is still the chance the head tube fittings are not square though as they are 2 parts. But I don't fancy letting anyone loose on my carbon frame with a serrated facing tool!

I tried asking On One on their frame page (in the comments) if a top swing front mech was okay to use. The guy replied about bottom cable runs acting as though I was a bit special in asking if it was top or bottom pull - what I actually asked was if you had to use a conventional mech or if I could use my top swing one. I have the top swing on but I am not convinced the frame is the right diameter that close to the BB area.

Did you get the headtube faced at all?

As for the top ring thing - you need that for the bearing pre-load - this is an important part of the headset

ahh I see. hmm, dunno. Might stop it sitting right. Got any old ones with the same bearing angle that you could modify?

I'm gonna have a faff when I get the time later this week, but I'll see what O-O say first!

To me it seems odd that you should have to faff.

I had a not to dissimilar experience with a frame recently.

Problem could have been caused by three separate parts and suppliers.

Talked through the problem with the frame builder/supplier and the problem was solved with a replacement frame (under warranty).

The case is question was a little different and I don't know how O-O could resolve this by swapping out the frame. But they should be able to offer a solution that works.

As said ^^ surely you are not the only one who has experience this as the RS fork is a popular one.

Interested to hear how you get on.

As said ^^ surely you are not the only one who has experience this as the RS fork is a popular one

To me it seems odd that you should have to faff.

---------------------------------------
To be clear it's not a massive problem, I can ride the bike as is, but it's not 'right' and that bothers me. I can feel something is wrong when I look for it, so it needs to be fixed.
I can well imagine certain people never even spotting this if it occoured to them!

I would guess that the reason why this hasn't cropped up before is that most people are using 1+1/8th" non-tapered forks, that's what I've fitted, simply to make swapping forks to my other bikes easier.

Paul, I can't believe I'm the first person to fit a tapered fork to a 456. Sorry, I just don't believe it. If O-O haven't done it, and tested it, then they should be shot.

yeah I am using a 1 1/8th too. Going to be very annoyed if when I come to fit a tapered one it won't fit. I am using a superstar headset as it was lighter and came with both crown races so it's going to be a shame if the tapered fork still wont fit due to the short head tube.

The short headtube does mean you can buy forks with really cut down steerers nuce and cheap but it means you have to run lots of spacers if you don't want to cut your steerer which spoils the look.

PeterPoddy - Member
To be clear it's not a massive problem, I can ride the bike as is, but it's not 'right' and that bothers me. I can feel something is wrong when I look for it, so it needs to be fixed.
I can well imagine certain people never even spotting this if it occoured to them!

You are taking a very positive line on this one.

I acknowledge that its not a massive problem but I guess regardless of that it should not be happening.

It was the constant little niggle that led me to finally getting mine sorted.

Now that it is I love my frame even more 😀

Any news from O-O?

PS if you do resort to getting a new crown race made then give Hope a shout. They might make a run of them to sell to similarly stuck C456 owners.

I acknowledge that its not a massive problem but I guess regardless of that it should not be happening.

No. It shouldn't. It's a combination of poorly thought out 'standards' that aren't working together when there should be no problem at all.

I'm gonna be a bit more than miffed if I have to spend money on this, to be honest, but chucking a strop gets you nowhere fast I find.

It's a problem. A solution can be found and everyone can learn from it, hopefully..........

(That's pie in the sky isn't it? 😉 )

I wouldn't be in a hurry to do this but... how about cutting a slot in the top wedge like on many FSA headsets? This will allow it to deform a tiny bit and settle into wherever it ends up clamping the steerer tube.

Might work, might not - I accept no responsibility if it all goes horribly wrong.

Ooh epic fail for On One, this will affect the new carbon 29er too as it has the 105mm head tube on all sizes also 😯

I wouldn't be in a hurry to do this but... how about cutting a slot in the top wedge like on many FSA headsets? This will allow it to deform a tiny bit and settle into wherever it ends up clamping the steerer tube.

It already has a slot in it. That's not the problem

[b]UPDATE[/b]

Just had a call from O-O.

I'm not the first person this has happened to! 🙂 Yay!
The solution?
The last bloke hadn't cut his forks and sent them back for a refund! 🙁 Booooo!

It appears that it's unique (so far) to new Rockshox forks only.

Basically there is no soultion. O-O are going to look into it though, but I'm not holding my breath.

Bugger.

But no more than I expected to be fair.....

Rubbish that eh?
So RS are making their steerers with a different taper from everyone else, or O-O are making their frames different to everyone else??
It has to be one or the other!

It might be a bit of both?

RS = longer taper
OO = shorter headtube + recessed headset top cup?

@ PP: Bugger.

Is 110mm for a HT not pretty short?

(this is coming from someone who is used to 130mm HT as standard)

Is 110mm for a HT not pretty short?

It's 105mm 🙂

If it had a regular top race, it'd be fine. It's the semi integrated race that's too low and causing the problem it seems. But nobody makes a top race with a 44mm cup size that's external (Not surprising)

Seems a bit of a serious oversight to me. Are they going to honour people returning frames then as they can't take Rockshox tapered forks?

If you are down in the South West you are welcome to see if my Superstar headset works with the fork. You could then return the headset.

Does the 1.5" crown race you've got have a taper on the lower side? Just wondering if you can sit another one on top of the existing one if there is a taper that will fit over the taper on top of the one already fitted to the fork? Bit messy but a solution until a thicker race comes out.

Does the 1.5" crown race you've got have a taper on the lower side? Just wondering if you can sit another one on top of the existing one if there is a taper that will fit over the taper on top of the one already fitted to the fork? Bit messy but a solution until a thicker race comes out.

Wow. I had to read that 4 times before I understood! 😉

No, the race isn't tapered, just the steerer, which then has a 1.5in section a the base and a long 1 1/8 section above the taper.
Looking at my pic I don't think there's enough 1.5in height below the taper to take 2 crown races....

I've emailed BETD about making some spacers or a new crown race to effectively lengthen the headtube.

Let's see if they can help 🙂

Quick CAD knock up:

[IMG] [/IMG]

Would cost $7.37 each based on 25 made from 6061 aluminium in raw finish.

Pete,

BETD made or make a 44mm to 1 1/8 reducer, i was thinking of getting one for the lower cup of my Iron Horse to slacken it off. I would immagine this could be installed in the top cup of your 456 then a standard 1 1/8 external headset top cup pressed into the reducer.

You may have to machine a little out of the bottom ID of the adapter from BETD to accomodate the taper and i'd check the length of insertionn of the standard headset so that doesn't foul the taper either.

From memory it is the Giant AC on you would need but do not quote me on this, they were pretty quick in getting back to me when i was enquiring.

http://www.mountainbikecomponents.co.uk/items.asp?CategoryID=169&Name=Headset+Reducers

good luck

Rusty

As Brant has stated there is NO fixed standard for Tapered steerers. I did a lot of investigation, all manufacturers have a different take, however missed this one... The Carbon 456 16inch is a "geometry" match for its 4130 brother and therefore kept its 95mm HT.

It is unfortunate but this does NOT affect the other sizes or the 29ers.

SRAM forks for 2012 have the following tapers:
REBA/SEKTOR REVELATION = 108mm this will not fit the 16" 456
ARGYLE = 102mm and WILL fit.

For the 29" Frames
SRAM 29er for 2012 have the following tapers:
REBA 29 + SID 29 = 85mm and WILL fit.

As a solution we are looking at getting a +3-5mm Crown for our headset. Each Headset will have different heights and different crowns.

This is the maths for Carbon 456 16" with the Smoothie Mixer Tapered Headset.
Lower 1.5" Cup + Crown = 14mm
Carbon 456 16" HT = 95mm
TOTAL = 109mm
Minus the 44mm ZS Top Cup (-6.5) = 102.5
Grip point of Ahead compression ring = 107.5mm (THIS gets slower as the top cap and stem is compressed...

We are therefore arranging a series of +3/+5 1.5" Crowns to see which works best... Stevo

Can't you get Jack at the headset factory to make you some modified top caps Stevo?
You off out next week?

Top cap wouldn't fiddle with steering geometry.

dont think ill be one of these then!

Yes Brant cheers, I'll be doing 2x fixes 1x the crown for the ASAP. And 1x 44mm External top cap. The 44mm External will be useful for steel frame moving forward to tapered steerers too 🙂

External will be useful for steel frame moving forward to tapered steerers too

Jolly good.

You've heard about the tapered BB thing, yeah?

I'd just like to add my thanks to Stevo at O-O for the phone call and the explanation this morning. 🙂 Much appreciated.
I'll update if I have any more news

So the steel 456 is getting an update with a 44mm head tube.

I'm liking the way this thread has gone 🙂

Stevo, any chance these external top sections will be available separately to those of us who already have 16" frames with headsets installed? Would be nice to not have to buy a whole new £40 headset for the sake of one new part to raise it up and tbh I would be tempted to go with it now to reduce the amount of spacers I am running.

I assume it is just the upper bearing cup that needs changing to external so the rest of the headset is unchanged - ie same upper cover part, bearing etc?

Lower 1.5" Cup + Crown = 14mm
Carbon 456 16" HT = 95mm
TOTAL = 109mm

Hmmm. I measured my head tube last night and it's 90mm not 95mm. Unless I've measured it wrong that is. But that was the gap between the installed headset races....

I just measured mine and it is 90mm too.

I also just checked the geometry table on the on-one site and it states 105mm for the 16" frame. 90mm is for the 14" frame. I think someone has cocked up with the design/manufacture.

I wondered why I have been having to fit WAY more spacers than I calculated before I bought the frame.

On One - can I have a frame that has the geometry specs you quoted please? Really not happy that I won't be able to fit a tapered fork without a bodge.

Pulling up a chair now....

Biscuit anyone?

I wondered why I had to go get another 15mm of steerer spacers. I have 50mm of spacers in total which looks stupid. My steerer is about 200mm as it is from my 15" Merlin frame and I don't want to cut it as it will make it unusable in most other frames.

I also just checked the geometry table on the on-one site and it states 105mm for the 16" frame. 90mm is for the 14" frame. I think someone has cocked up with the design/manufacture.

Speaking to Steevo yesterday, it turns out the C456 geometry page is mostly wrong. There is no 14in C456 for a start..........

On One - can I have a frame that has the geometry specs you quoted please? Really not happy that I won't be able to fit a tapered fork without a bodge.

To be fair I think 'bodge' is a strong word. It's only a few mm in it and a modified crown race or an external race on the top headset cup will sort it.

I'm actually riding mine as is. There is a small amount of detectable play, but I've got rid of the noise I had with my own mods to the taper ring. I'm quite happy to let O-O work on a solution. These things happen and we all learn, yes? No point in me throwing a wobbler about it..... 😀

Given that the previous short term solution was a +3mm lower crown race a +8mm one begins to sound more like a workaround than a solution, tbh.

Who mentioned +8mm? I don't need that much!

EDIT

We are therefore arranging a series of +3/+5 1.5" Crowns to see which works best... Stevo

I'm hoping he's going to send me one!

EDIT 2
I think I understand now: You're thinking of the 5mm shorter head tube, yes?

[i]We are therefore arranging a series of +3/+5 1.5" Crowns to see which works best... Stevo [/i]

which was based on a 95mm headtube (again from his post) - if the headtube is only 90mm he'll need to add another 5mm to his crown races won't he?

if the headtube is only 90mm he'll need to add another 5mm to his crown races won't he?

See EDIT 2 above! 🙂

But no, 3mm will probably fix mine, and 5mm certainly will.

Although, agreed, he's 5mm out on the head tube length, well either that or it's me that's wrong!

Which is all very odd based on Stevos numbers above too

would it have been enough before you started 'adjusting' things with a file?

Yeah, I think so. What I've done is minimal, there's not much to work with! 🙂

Looking back at the pic in your first post it looks like the upper crown race is sitting a good 5mm onto the taper of the steerer, surely as you have suggested a modified top cup with additional spacing to house a external headset is going to be the best solution.

Have you heard anything back from BETD?