[Closed] Interesting article from the states about a change in mtb culture

Interesting, I think the authour cannot see the positive in MTB's popularity. I think the article it is full of his own fallacies about what MTB culture is, I've been doing it since 1989 and my idea of MTB is not the same as his. Live n let live I say. It's all riding and everyone is having fun.

Meh. Old bloke doesn't like what he perceives as poor behaviour. Nothing new there.

Old man doesn't like all these kids going around having a good time with their music and their hair...

He lives a mile from his trails but criticises those who have to drive, a bit over-grumpy to be honest. In the 30 years I've been MTB'ing, I haven't noticed a massive increase in the amount of a'holes.

Ah, another purist.

Grumpy, but fair enough.
Same here. Having seen the 'support' some recently expressed for those carelessly shredding Scottish trails in a video, I got annoyed but held my tongue at the time. I teach mountain biking to large kids and adults regularly and always try to instil a sense of respect for the whole environment, including the trails themselves.
Damaging trails and scaring walkers is neither big nor clever. Every action has an impact; it is our choice to make this large or to make it small. As the code makes clear, access privileges bring with them responsibility.
Enduro activity has a place and that place is on the trails that are built for this purpose by those who understand the racer mind and accept that the trail is a temporary thing and will be trashed by sloppy, fast riding. Everywhere else, there is no place for ignorant, selfish, inconsiderate trail wrecking behaviour. Respecting the trail is as important as respecting every other aspect of the environment, including wildlife, access rights, pollution, litter etc....
Here's an example of impact. Anyone who has ridden in Torridon for a few years will have seen the gradually creeping damage to what were, just a few years ago, amazingly well preserved stalkers' paths from a previous century. Now, surfaces are gradually breaking up and smaller surface material broken up and washed away. Trail use requires respect and the more of us out there, the higher the potential impact of our collective actions. Don't hurt the dirt. Skids are for kids. But not in any group that I am with..

The sport is changing. With technology its become far less elitist. If you do want to be a grumpy old man about it you can still head off into the wilds and find a bit of peace. The only thing I don't like is that I've been riding for 30 years and all these johnny-come-lately types are way better than me.

Wait until he gets overtaken by a few ebikes 😆

Article is from 2018, hes probably exploded with rage by now

Wait until he gets overtaken by a few ebikes 😆

Oh, so this!

That article has been posted a couple of times on here already... can't recall the outcome each time but I think a few sort of agree with it, but pretty much everyone thought he was far too grumpy.

A case of anyone that doesn't do it like me is doing it wrong.
Plenty of them on here too.
It's all just pissing about on bikes.

I think the author is a grumpy old sod with an over-inflated sense of his own intelligence.

Yes there are negatives about the increasing popularity of MTB (e.g. all the bloody YouTube videos), but young people have always been lazy, selfish ****s. I know 'cos I used to be one.

Classic gatekeeping. There's room for everyone.

Except Ebikes, obviously.

As long as rule one is observed, then this;

It’s all just pissing about on bikes.

What a spectacularly self-obsessed sanctimonious judgemental whine that was. If there is a problem with MTBing I suspect he and others like him are complicit through their narrow-minded attitudes.

He should take up golf.

Got bored half way through.

Did he move on to trail dogs? They’re owned by the Devil’s apostles apparently

Dont see what problem people have with the article, he is saying he and we are not helping the next generation understand how to behave.

he is saying he and we are not helping the next generation understand how to behave.

I blame teachers, myself. 🙂

Seriously, though, at what point of modern history did the entirety of yoof listen to old farts moaning about their antisocial behaviour? The origins of MTBing was started in part by weed-smoking eejits racing downhill.

There is room for everyone. If I want solitude, no litter, and no Strava lines, I don't head for Gisburn then whine about the state of the place.

“Dont see what problem people have with the article, he is saying he and we are not helping the next generation understand how to behave.“

The entire implication is that the problem is that newer riders are not behaving like him. But having read the article I don’t think that riders behaving like him is a good thing.

“I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly disrespectful and impatient of restraint.”

Hesiod, 8th Century BC

Who writes this drivel? And just as important who reads it....oh, hang on 😒

First paragraph confirmed moaning ****ism so stopped after that.

People who moan about not having a hobby to themselves "cause they're a purist, man" are dicks.

@highlandman - I agree with you. Do what you want if it doesn't cause conflict or more importantly irreparably damage the resource you're using. Mates of mine were stopped on a ride in Torridon by a local fella who had worked on the estate for decades. He explained the damage being caused to the trails/paths he'd helped keep in such good condition. It isn't bikes, it's the number of riders 'shredding' when the weather has left the trails in a delicate state and the crap riding technique (I paraphrase) of a significant number of recent riders - wannabe Steve Peats and Danny Macs I believe he called them. He clearly understood that environment and threats to it better than anyone (almost certainly...) here.
The same is true of several social media highlight trails near me in N Lakes - groups riding there, without care, because it's a must do trail. They whinge about and hate the uphill and wouldn't choose to be in the mountains otherwise.

I read so much bullshit and sensationalism in the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs that I lost interest.

I think the article confuses two things. People not respecting the environment is a valid concern (in most cases they don't know any better, even if they've been told, they don't have the background to understand). Having to share that environment with others is not valid; that's a different problem, potentially much harder to solve, as more people become interested in the outdoors.

Article was drivel. Got to the end of it without really knowing what it was he was whining about.

And since it seems to be the trend in this thread...
33 years since I took up MTB 😉

I had a scan of the other article linked in the main one. Safe to say I think the Adventure Journal is a bit 'red socked' for me.

The moment I opened the article and saw the name I knew what was coming. He's very well known at the MTBR forums, where he frequently comes up as a perfectly insufferable character.
The guy has a remarkable career, but instead of inspiring he prefers to non stop criticise everyone who's not in the exact same page as him and often with a good deal of nonsense.

I've seen this kind of thing at other sports. People need to realise that their niche within a sport is not that special, it's not a "way of life", there are more ways to enjoy things.

Thats a real old duffer moan about how its not like it used to be in his day, but he does make some perfectly valid points.

Its a shame his delivery denigrates them.

He's moved, to be alone - probably best place for him...

http://lacemine29.blogspot.com/2020/03/moving-on.html

I'm disturbed by people playing music on the trails as much as the next man, but I'm not sure I'd move to Idaho to get away from it...

“He’s moved, to be alone – probably best place for him…”

I will never cease to be amazed by the ability of Americans to complain about the number of people in the countryside in:

1. One of the least densely populated countries on the planet
2. A country that was stolen by their ancestors from its original inhabitants

@chiefgrooveguru , as much as I'm not a fan of the guy in question, I'll have to play a little devils advocate here:
- most countries were at some point conquered and occupied from outside forces. The "original inhabitants" argument is quite trickier than it seems. Not saying that conquering and occupying other territories is right or wrong, only that there's nothing exceptionally nefarious about the US compared to the rest of the world, including us here.

- many people in the US are particularly touchy about this trail use topic because of their access regulations. Many of their rules might sound weird for us here in the UK/EU but the fact is that certain situations can end up in denied access for certain areas there

I see the point about grumpy old men etc but it really doesn't have to be like this. I came to MTB from climbing which on the surface are similar 'extreme sports' but that's all they have in common. In the climbing world ethics and respect for the environment are ingrained in everyone, young or old. You don't see young turk climbers chipping holds or bolting grit, or dropping litter or acting like dicks at the crag. And when someone does step out of line they are quickly shut down by the wider community. We probably need a bit/lot of that in mountain biking.

Very whiny ... must be one of the regulars on here ....

You don’t see young turk climbers chipping holds or bolting grit, or dropping litter...

Everyone? I thought the Everest camps were pretty well known as rubbish tips? Google suggest Mont Blanc has had similar issues

I wheeled my bike out the back door of the shop

When did we become this crowd?

When shops sold loads of expensive kit to newbies and the newbies hit the trails.

I thought the Everest camps were pretty well known as rubbish tips?

But that's not climbing, that's mountaineering...

I think for most people, and especially teenagers, climbing has a higher barrier to entry compared to mountain biking. It's easier to ride whatever bike you have to hand in the local woods with your mates than it is to find a rock face and figure out how to get up it without dying. This leads to a stronger community that can show new initiates "the way". I've seen plenty of people being dicks at indoor bouldering walls, where that barrier is removed.

Reading the original article reminded me of 90s videos like Dirt, Mud Cows, Kranked etc. and how not that much has changed. If anything slids are less of a thing than they used to be.

But that’s not climbing, that’s mountaineering

Is there a difference - genuine question? At the end of the day it’s all ropes and mountains, ledges, etc to me, like dh, enduro, xc, bike packing etc are all mountain biking

In the climbing world ethics and respect for the environment are ingrained in everyone, young or old. You don’t see young turk climbers chipping holds or bolting grit, or dropping litter or acting like dicks at the crag. And when someone does step out of line they are quickly shut down by the wider community. We probably need a bit/lot of that in mountain biking.

Whilst there are issues within climbing, like litter at the crag (finger tape etc, so clearly climbers), human crap, chalk and tick lines everywhere and even music, I think that the smaller overall numbers lessen the impact.

I think that the key point you make is "when someone does step out of line they are quickly shut down by the wider community". In mountain biking I kind of get the feeling that the wider 'community' doesn't give a crap about much except their latest youtube upload or strava segment. Of course, mountain biking has moved on immensely from the rambling on two wheels of old, and that is inevitable, but it is certainly putting a lot more pressure on the environment than was present 20 years ago.

Some people and groups, such as Ride Sheffield, do fantastic work, but mountain biking lacks any cohesive body to both represent and influence riders in UK.

Climbing has issues too.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/crag_access/almscliff-727853

The issue seems to be more about what happens in honeypot areas rather than overall degeneracy. There are no more arseholes than there used to be, but if you have hundreds of people in one area, you've more chance of encountering one.

I think the article author used to live somewhere where he had the trails to himself, more or less, they became popular, and he didn't like it. Which is fine, he's moved somewhere quieter.

Is there a difference – genuine question? At the end of the day it’s all ropes and mountains, ledges, etc to me, like dh, enduro, xc, bike packing etc are all mountain biking

I'd say Everest mountaineering and bouldering are much further apart than DH and bikepacking, but it's a fair point. The Everest litter is caused by inaccessibility and costs, but it is still unforgivable.

First time I went to glentress in 1999 we drive down with music blaring, my mate pushed straight up the climb and had a couple of interesting cigarrette on the way up.

My early MTB heros- Palmer, missy giove...

Socrates (469–399 bc): ‘The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.’

Not much has changed in 2500 years

First paragraph confirmed moaning ****ism so stopped after that.

😀

The climbing link is intresting

I managed to get into a Forum debate about the Sheffield University freshers meet. I won't bore you with all the details but some people were so keen to preserve the rock that they said no one had the right to be taught to climb outside. IMHO some rock climbers are to protective of certain areas for their own use.

I think mountain biking is changing and that is putting pressure on some areas. It will need lots of local diplomacy to keep things open but even in the UK we are hardly out of space

I managed to get into a Forum debate about the Sheffield University freshers meet. I won’t bore you with all the details but some people were so keen to preserve the rock that they said no one had the right to be taught to climb outside. IMHO some rock climbers are to protective of certain areas for their own use.

There's a related debate about climbing walls and how bad they are because they just encourage folk to then climb real rock.

There have also been knock-on effects in other things - campervans would be a good example. A few folk parking "wild", even having a wee fire, and that's OK. However, scale that up until everyone is doing it and it becomes unsustainable. You then have the situation where previous parking spots are made inaccessible, more legislation is introduced and then folk are restricted to official camp sites. I'm not saying the same will happen with mountain biking, but it's certainly one possible outcome.

Its pretty normal when the area an activity happens in starts to be limited or overcrowded.

You see it in places like Woburn for example. Years ago you could ride all over it and it was full of great lines. This and social media made it attractive, it got too busy, the landowner got upset. Now you are just meant to ride on the authorised trail.

Same happened with Green Lane motorcycling. In the early 90's you could ride without meeting anyone. A few idiots annoyed some other idiots and the councils basically closed Byways / BOATS and such like. What is left is overcrowded and gets eroded. The sport has basically died.

I worry that if we shout for access to ride FP we will be herded into just bits that are sanctioned. Like trail centres. I think its better to just leave it as it is. Ride cheeky, but follow the cheeky rules.

When one area gets over crowded I just move on and find some other spot. Things change over time.

I feel I have a slightly different view to most posters. I think there has been a real change in MTB culture.

For me there seems to be less friendliness, thoughtfulness and consideration out on the trails.

We need more people heeding Rule No’1.

On that point I wouldn’t disagree. But to be fair people must just be more friendly in Yorkshire. I’ve never had an argument with a dog walker, ebiker, landowner, or rambler. Mostly I just get people saying hello and commenting on the weather 😂

For me there seems to be less friendliness, thoughtfulness and consideration out on the trails.

I don't see this "out" on the trails. Alost every cyclist, walker, runner, whatever I meet when in the wilds is friendly and considerate. We're all just folk doing stuff outdoors and that's great. It's possibly different in and around busy trail centres, but I don't frequent those so I can't really judge.

I find friendliness out on the trails varies a lot depending on where you go. I find Forest of Dean much friendlier than Surrey Hills, for example.

but it’s certainly one possible outcome.

this is just a variation of the same argument that gets trotted out time and again.

“They” will ban us from cycling in the countryside.

I’ve heard it from day one of mountain biking and I’ve been this for more than 20 years now. It hasn’t happened and I doubt it ever will

I think climbing is in a very odd state. There is an explosion of interest in Bouldering and sport climbing. The Peak gritstone is still popular but i got a sense that trad was on decline to the point where we'll start loosing routes back to nature

I think tlr is right, the wider community aren't too fussed.

The only thing that annoys me in litter, but that's aesthetics for you.

I think the difficulties come in when some people see it as a culture and some as a pass time.

I'm in the latter camp - I ride bikes, drive cars, read Sci fi, but I wouldn't identify myself as a cyclist, motorist, nerd. They are just things I do.

The moment I opened the article and saw the name I knew what was coming. He’s very well known at the MTBR forums, where he frequently comes up as a perfectly insufferable character.
The guy has a remarkable career, but instead of inspiring he prefers to non stop criticise everyone who’s not in the exact same page as him and often with a good deal of nonsense.

Was just scrolling through to post similar. He takes nice photos and presumably builds a good wheel but many of his posts really don't come across well. Not that he doesn't raise a few good points. I can only imagine his blood pressure seeing Peaslake on a Sunday.

highlandman sums it up nicely.

Go mad as you like on purpose built mtb trails, but elsewhere eg natural trails: Don’t hurt the dirt.

Well you can't really wreck a lot of the Peaks. Last time I was up there I saw dirt bikes, horses mountain bikes and walkers all at the same time. The trails were worn and obvious. Round here all the tracks are grass, if you can find them: in fact folks riding my events started complaining there was too much grass. Bloody trail centres.....

Double-edged sword, isn't it. All the 'newbies*' who started or frequent trail centres now but since lockdown, they can't get to them as frequently. So they ride local and assume the local natural stuff is the same, so end up riding the same way they do at trail centres, but with more traffic locally (foot and bike) it doesn't work as well.
The riders from yesteryear probably have more awareness of the way they ride as back then, 1 stupid move could get everything blocked. Nowadays, as things have 'progressed', there are plenty riders who don't have any concerns and just ride as hard/rough as they can.
Each to their own, I really hate seeing it but no-one listens so I just go ride elsewhere or make sure I'm there when it is very quiet so I don't see anything that will distract me from my ride.
I'm a sociable chap, but I've not moved with the times regarding ripping up the ground for no real reason, so I'm happy to be riding on my own.
Riding has evolved but I'm not sure all of has been an improvement as in some cases we appear to have regressed rather than progressed.
More people riding bikes is brilliant, if less of them would skid and rip the ground up, that would be even better - but that is just my opinion, which many do disagree with.

* Isn't just new riders but does tend to be those who spend more time at trail centres than riding natural trails in the hills - so I'm aware that I'm making a sweeping generalisation there.

“They” will ban us from cycling in the countryside.

I’ve heard it from day one of mountain biking and I’ve been this for more than 20 years now. It hasn’t happened and I doubt it ever will

This forum regularly has posts about bits of forest where riding is being stopped, despite it having been going on "low key" for years.

For me there seems to be less friendliness, thoughtfulness and consideration out on the trails.

Buy a road bike then come back to that statement in 6 months.

I genuinely do not see that. Quite the opposite. Surprising friendliness etc.

It usually takes twice as long as it could to get round Glentress due to everyone wanting to chat.

It's a fair enough article but hardly a revelation. I do share his and @highlandmans concerns about damage to an already fragile environment. That said the response to this should be to educate people not to berate people. It does remind me of the whole dirty campers fiasco earlier this year. Open minds and patience are needed on both sidess

Haven't read the linked article but the conversation resonates with me a bit.

Since our local woods lost its official FE MTB status this time last year, and possibly with the lockdown increases in both cycling and riding local, we've seen a big increase in digging/building in our little woodland. This seems to mirror what I'm hearing from other FE sites too.

I don't have a problem with that per se (we've always dug in the woods), but the newer builders are working closer to other users and busy areas, and are tending to build more 'jibby' one-off features rather than coherent trails. This is changing the feel of our local trails, and I get how some riders might see this as threatening or 'wrong' - especially in our new 'hate the other' cultural climate...

Without getting all preachy, I think the only to deal with a shift in culture like this is to assimilate it, learn from it, and educate. We've brought these new rider/builders into our local circle of builders and will take it from there. Pointless railing against it when fundamentally we all want the same thing.

Funny. Round my way I’d say that mountain biking *is* the new golf.

This doesn’t reflect my interpretation of the sport at all. It’s always been a fringe thing. Look at films like Mud Cows, Sprung and New World Didorder from back in what this chap would probably call “The Day”. The only difference now is that we can go a lot faster, uplifts are a thing, and some people care about Strava.

I think there has always been (at least) two tendencies in mountainbiking. those for whom the bike is a tool to get out and about - just we like to do it offroad. Call it the roughstuff tendency. Then there is those who take their inspiration from the repack riders and the red bull guys more recently. To them its all about speed and features. Call them the repack tendency? or the first lot ride landrover equivalents and the second lot rally cars?

When MTBing first took off in the uk what 30 odd years ago many of us came to it from roughstuff and from hillwalking. We have a different ethos to those for whom its all about the thrill of the ride. Over the years the first group have made up a smaller and smaller % of total MTBers hence the change in attitudes.

I cannot understand the wish to ride trail centres all the time - I find them dull and I thing trail digging is vandalism. Other viewpoints are available. I far prefer to ride in the hills or just wander around on my bike.

I do think we may be reaching a tipping point tho as happened with camper vans last summer in that trail digging and riding flat out will become more and more of an issue with non riders

Ha, if anything I’d argue the complete opposite. When I started riding, the vibe in MBUK was about mucking around in the woods, punk rock and maybe the odd hint about smoking a joint. It was very much trying to be counter-cultural and edgy.

Now it seems like it’s a bit serious and boring. There are loads of older folk who perhaps grew up with MTB in the 1990s and are now in their sixties. Nothing wrong with that but I would rather a new edgier generation came behind me so I could at least feel a semblance that I’m involved in an interesting sport.

(Anyone that drops litter can GTFO though)

When did you start riding superficial? Maybe its also a regional thing?

Ah it's the same old story I've heard a thousand times. The Mountain Bike element is a red herring and the RedBull, Diesel Duallies and whatever else a dog whistle.

Some people like to spend some time alone, I get that, I do too, and it's horrible when other people 'spoil' it by existing in the same space. Really the writer wants to scream "THIS IS MY SPECIAL PLACE THAT I GO TO BE AWAY FROM ALL YOU 'OTHER PEOPLE' GO AWAY, THIS IS MINE", but he knows he doesn't own it, and trying to lay claim to it makes him the arsehole so he finds a load of stereotypical ways to make them bad people.

“There are loads of older folk who perhaps grew up with MTB in the 1990s and are now in their sixties.”

Are you a time traveller?! 😉 I’m part of the generation that grew up with MTBing - we all rode BMXs and then MTBs became common in the mid-late ‘80s. In 1988 it felt like every other 10 year old I knew got a mountain bike for their birthday or Christmas!

Back to the climbing comparison (and no I don't think Everest BC is relevant to the UK), the biggest crime is chipping of holds and bolting areas which have been designated as trad. If a climber is caught chipping a hold or bolting a sensitive area they'd be ostracised very quickly, and the bolts removed and where possible the chipped holds repaired or filled in. I wonder what would happen if MTBers took the same approach to trail digging in sensitive areas? Instead of everyone riding a trail that had been dug through an ancient or sensitive woodland, damaging the flora and fauna, should it instead be dismantled and the area returned to its natural state?

There are lots of places here in Calderdale where this might apply. Mrs Daz is part of the local badger protection group and recently dismantled a trail which cut through an active badger sett and had blocked some of the holes. It's pretty embarrassing that she had to do that because mountain bikers can't exercise self-regulation and common sense, or are ignorant of the issues relating to protecting the envrionment.

I don't think it's as dire as that article make out, yes but there's a definite (and growing?) element of high-fiving #vanlife, new golfers...

The thing is, such people have always been part of MTBing, and most objections to them (probably mine included) are simply personal. They represent the aspirational, acquisitive, consumer culture version of mountain biking.

But they do have every right to ride bikes in the same woods and on the same trails as everyone else. And TBH cycling in general is better off having them. They add to the numbers and therefore form part of the arguments for improving access, plus they swell the market for cycling kit too meaning certain companies and products that perhaps wouldn't be viable are kept going...

Plus when they jack it in for their next Fad there's cheaper toys for us paupers to buy 2nd hand...

This forum regularly has posts about bits of forest where riding is being stopped

Sure, I’m not saying that doesn’t happen, more the “sky falling in” notion of primary legislation to make it illegal. Besides which if you added up all those bits of land it’s probably no more than 50 acres or so.
I like TJs Land Rover/ rally car analogy and how some folk approach MTB. There’s lots of “trails” I know that don’t link to anything, they’re just a line down a hillside, they get “sessioned” and then move onto the next, there’s less exploration or riding around in a big circle, more going from one technical challenge to the next. Same but different. As long as everyone’s respectful, it’s no worries

There’s very much a fashion element to the riding. Unfortunately, the last couple of years the fad has been ‘loam’ with everyone and their cousin feeling the need to make a fresh line of soggy corners straight down a hillside so they can make a sick YouTube video with 24 views.

In general, bikes are better (and cheaper) than ever, and there are more places to ride. Some people just like being miserable and feel the need to share it with others.

Buy a road bike then come back to that statement in 6 months.

Another one...? I used to do a fair few local’ish sportives and training rides... Still have a road bike.

My view is based on my 30+ years of mountain-biking, so not exactly a short period to make an assessment.

I think there has always been (at least) two tendencies in mountainbiking. those for whom the bike is a tool to get out and about – just we like to do it offroad. Call it the roughstuff tendency. Then there is those who take their inspiration from the repack riders

For me, I have a foot in both camps. The biggest thrill for me in MTB is finding a new trail though!

I think one of my favourite things to do on a bike is to go exploring somewhere for interesting natural trails. My last good stint of that was on holiday in Mallorca - peering at maps and satellite images to get some ideas and then going for a pedal looking for paths or tracks that ascend steeply, spotting them, getting to the top (pushing/carrying often required) and then attempting to ride back down. It’s a nice mix of quasi-rambling with no pressure to get anywhere or cover distance and then the challenge of riding stuff that’s pretty tech for me.

I think one of my favourite things to do on a bike is to go exploring somewhere for interesting natural trails. My last good stint of that was on holiday in Mallorca – peering at maps and satellite images to get some ideas and then going for a pedal looking for paths or tracks that ascend steeply, spotting them, getting to the top (pushing/carrying often required) and then attempting to ride back down. It’s a nice mix of quasi-rambling with no pressure to get anywhere or cover distance and then the challenge of riding stuff that’s pretty tech for me.

Very much this!

Current ‘discussion’ on an MTB owners page on FB is around what the best speaker is for attaching to your bike when out for a ride. Reckon only about 70/30 split of people have the correct answer, which I think is a reflection of modern attitudes, and not all that good...

“Current ‘discussion’ on an MTB owners page on FB is around what the best speaker is for attaching to your bike when out for a ride.”

As a professional (and moderately acclaimed) loudspeaker designer, I’m 100% certain that the answer is “whichever speaker is either so heavy the bike is unable to move or so quiet that no-one can hear it”...