You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
I came across an interesting article online about delivery cyclists, ostensibly about opportunities for struggling bike shops to service this sector of the market. However it covers lots of discussion points- ebikes, illegal ebikes, the economy, immigration, policing, the desperate situation of many of the riders and not least just how bad the big delivery companies can be.
Not posting it up for any particular point, but it's a good read and I thought folk might like a look.
Thanks for posting that, interesting read.
Reminded me that there was a very good interview by Ned Boulting on the StreetsAhead podcast about a charity (Xo Bikes) training prisoners to repair bikes, and get a qualification in the process, so they have something to go to once released.
https://shows.acast.com/streets-ahead/episodes/on-location-pentonville-prison
Both those bike shops aren't far from where I work, one right near my commute.
Not a nice life for them.
I don't get the illegal bikes though. One chap in that article had 3 bikes taken by the police for a total of £4500. One you could put to accidental ignorance of the rules, but 3?
Is the benefit of a ridiculous throttle powered death trap really worth that much over a 15mph pedal assist to someone making so little?
Interesting read, thanks for posting. Agree with @ayjaydoubleyou, having three bikes taken by the cops isn't bad luck, that's something else entirely.
a red Rockhopper — a Decathlon staple e-bike
Fire the sub-editor immediately.
What puzzles me is where do the bikes come from? Most of the bikes I see in our city centre are conversions of cheapo MTBs with crap brakes and cycle parts. There must be workshops producing loads of them from Chinese kits as I don't see recently arrived immigrants having the skills or contacts to do this. And if the article is to be believed for only £1500!
I don’t get the illegal bikes though.
S/H Carerra, £50. Online direct conversion kit, £300? Or a rear wheel for £notmuch and a battery taped to the frame. If you're gig-working that's a lot of money to find and a legal e-bike is about a grand upwards. It's a question of doing it cheap not legally.
I've said it before but I don't think people who are at that end of things really GAS about legality of the bike they use, it's a means to getting some kind of income and they have bigger stuff to worry about. It's understandable.
"showing me the £14 he has made in the first four hours of his shift, he reckons he is getting more like £1 a mile. "
£14 in 4 hours..
What puzzles me is where do the bikes come from? Most of the bikes I see in our city centre are conversions of cheapo MTBs with crap brakes and cycle parts. There must be workshops producing loads of them from Chinese kits as I don’t see recently arrived immigrants having the skills or contacts to do this. And if the article is to be believed for only £1500!
Facebook groups.
I briefly toyed with the idea of building a legal electric motorbike around an old BSA Bantam frame so was doing a bit of research, mostly looking at much bigger motors, but there's loads of people out there prepared to build them from ali-express parts.
Or as Jameso said, you can buy a hub motor kit and battery for not a lot and it's only a case of connecting it together, no real skill involved.
S/H Carerra, £50. Online direct conversion kit, £300? Or a rear wheel for £notmuch and a battery taped to the frame. If you’re gig-working that’s a lot of money to find and a legal e-bike is about a grand upwards. It’s a question of doing it cheap not legall
putting together your own e-bike isnt illegal .
putting together an illegal ebike is illegal
Another issue plaguing delivery riders is - fronting.
Where you have workers without the rights to work - paying a person who has the right to work and hold a deliveroo account - who is then paid by the delivery company - and pays a %age to the worker doing the work.
I disagree with the taking advantage of their worker status - that is unfair on anyone to be clear this is not intended to be a debate on their right to be here .
There are loads of these guys zipping about Reading on bikes that if not trust to ride in traffic, but I'm in a relatively fortunate position and have the choice. I think a lot of cyclists look at this from a cyclist's perspective, rather than that if someone trying to keep the wolf from the door. Quite frankly, I'd have no wish to spend 8+ hours a day riding around the town centre and can see why a trigger operated bike is of such appeal. More drops for less effort. Risk Vs reward.
In terms of the delivery company's attitude; I once drove a delivery van for a large supermarket and when you joined you were informed of working hours regs for a driver. If you then chose to drive over-long shifts or a late followed by an early the management did not care. That was your responsibility and on your head. So I don't particularly think that the operating companies are any better or worse than many companies on the road when it comes to ensuring that their representatives are fully adherent to the rules.
Think the conversation needs to steer towards deliveroo and justeat etc a bit more than illegal ebikes tbh. Seem a tad exploitative.
In terms of the delivery company’s attitude; I once drove a delivery van for a large supermarket and when you joined you were informed of working hours regs for a driver. If you then chose to drive over-long shifts or a late followed by an early the management did not care. That was your responsibility and on your head.
arguably they are right . its the drivers duty and the driver will be the one prosecuted.
I've always wondered why the supermarket delivery drivers are not subject to CPC. (i know the 3.5 ton rule and thats the loop hole they are working under)....
Think the conversation needs to steer towards deliveroo and justeat etc a bit more than illegal ebikes tbh. Seem a tad exploitative.
Considering they manage to pay so little tax at every step of the process.
The takeaways themselves don't like them because their fees (20%+) are far higher than it used to cost them to employ a driver directly.
The public don't seem to like them.
I'm amazed there hasn't been a clampdown on them.
Is the benefit of a ridiculous throttle powered death trap really worth that much over a 15mph pedal assist to someone making so little?
Depends, what's the ROI?
How much longer can you work on a twist and go over a normal bike?
The public don’t seem to like them.
The public love them!
In the UK and Ireland, 43 million orders in the space of three months, averaging £28 a pop, just for Deliveroo alone. The delivery apps overall are pulling in billions, perhaps tens of billions, per year from the UK public.
The public love them!
In the UK and Ireland, 43 million orders in the space of three months, averaging £28 a pop, just for Deliveroo alone. The delivery apps overall are pulling in billions, perhaps tens of billions, per year from the UK public.
Indeed. I have an inlaw who loves to moan about illegal ebikes and delivery drivers - all while on her phone ordering a Just Eat delivery again while waiting on the three daily Amazon deliveries......
The public don't like them the public like the convienance.
The public by large would eat their own excrement before phoning and speaking to someone
We have a Brazilian cleaner and now have to work very hard to keep her.
She reckons her compatriots can earn a grand a week doing deliveries and this is now the preferred job of cleaners .
The public love them!
In the UK and Ireland, 43 million orders in the space of three months, averaging £28 a pop, just for Deliveroo alone. The delivery apps overall are pulling in billions, perhaps tens of billions, per year from the UK public.
The public love a takeaway. But takeaways offering a delivery service, even ones with online ordering, existed long before Just Eat.
JE, Deliveroo, Uber etc just cornered the ordering and delivery side of the industry because they realized it gave them a stranglehold on the profits because if your takeaway isn't on Just Eat it may as well not exist.
She reckons her compatriots can earn a grand a week doing deliveries and this is now the preferred job of cleaners .
Deliveries for who, Deliveroo? I doubt it! DPD/Evri? I still doubt it, but I could see it if they were doing like 70 hour weeks.
putting together your own e-bike isnt illegal .
putting together an illegal ebike is illegal
Sure, I just don't think legality is an easy option if you need to earn and don't have £1000+ for a bike. You could try to find the money or get proper fit and courier skills, but realistically they'll just take the chance. Reading about the lad in the last few paras of the article the risk of having an illegal e-bike seem pretty minor compared to all that, fire risk aside oc.
Think the conversation needs to steer towards deliveroo and justeat etc a bit more than illegal ebikes tbh. Seem a tad exploitative.
+100. On one hand it's an earner for people who may not have many options but it's still exploitative.
I don't know what profits have been generated for those who've investment in these apps (the early round investors and VCs I'm mainly thinking about). But if that profit was split by the number of miles and deliveries, I wonder how their $ per delivery looks Vs the $ per delivery earned by a rider.
She reckons her compatriots can earn a grand a week doing deliveries and this is now the preferred job of cleaners .
I have posted this before, this is the reality of the gig economy.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/How_debt_kills
The public love a takeaway. But takeaways offering a delivery service, even ones with online ordering, existed long before Just Eat.
But the public seemed to get incrementally more lazy a few years ago (during Covid?) and we now collectively tolerate this massively shady business despite its clearly exploitative nature.
Feels a bit like unlicensed minicabs in London back in the 90s/noughties, but on a nationwide scale and lower paid. Or sweatshops, but happening in plain sight in every town.
Go and pick up your ****ing food yourself, you lazy ****s.
I have posted this before, this is the reality of the gig economy.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/How_debt_kills/blockquote >
Blimey that's grim! Poor kid.Go and pick up your * food yourself, you lazy *.
My feeling too, and I've often wondered if take away deliveries could be taxed as a health risk (akin to the sugar tax) to get some money in to set against the cost of fat loss jabs the NHS seems to have decided are the answer.
The problem is I suppose that they're likely just to drive there.
Another issue plaguing delivery riders is – fronting.
Massive as delivery riders is one of the few professions which is accessible for illegal immigrants, so obviously a whole infrastructure exists to take advantage of them and Deliveroo etc officially don't allow it, but just turn a blind eye as it keeps wages down.
There are loads of these guys zipping about Reading on bikes that if not trust to ride in traffic, but I’m in a relatively fortunate position and have the choice. I think a lot of cyclists look at this from a cyclist’s perspective, rather than that if someone trying to keep the wolf from the door. Quite frankly, I’d have no wish to spend 8+ hours a day riding around the town centre and can see why a trigger operated bike is of such appeal. More drops for less effort. Risk Vs reward.
Berkley Avenue is where I often encounter them, in the dark, sans lights, with their hood up (because peripheral vision is for pussys?) I would guess they're shuttling the transfats from the riverside to Coley/southcote/Calcott? They use the 'cycle lane' (bit of paint) and then bypass the lights on the foot bridge over the railway. Probably because they see it as a protected route but they are actually quite vulnerable along there...
There's a wider issue here than 'just' road safety for me. These people are pretty much at the bottom of the social and economic pile, forced by pretty dire circumstances to take whatever they can get work wise. The "private contractor" model imported from the US is (knowingly) exploitative.
The question for me is are we as a nation comfortable with that? So far it seems we are and all I see is people wanting their KFC and some poor people to 'Other' for road safety concerns. I notice lots of posts above using the term 'illegal immigrants'. Somewhat presumptive, and following the Far right led/MSM habit of mislabeling refugees and asylum seekers.
If we don't like poor foreigners risking life and limb for pitifully small sums of money to bring us Maccy D's on a Friday night when us first world natives just can't be arsed, then why do we keep using these companies and why don't we legislate against their worst practices?
What puzzles me is where do the bikes come from?
5 last month from our workshop and taken ina way in one of our vans to add insult to injury.
why don’t we legislate against their worst practices?
You mean enforce, it's already illegal, just everyone in the chain is making money from it: the immigrants, the people fronting them, Deliveroo etc and the customer gets their food delivered cheaply.
I notice lots of posts above using the term ‘illegal immigrants‘. Somewhat presumptive
Not really, its a well researched thing and if you think about it, as its illegal to employ someone without a right to work, how many jobs exist where the employer and employee never get to meet?
how many jobs exist where the employer and employee never get to meet?
The whole thing is that the riders aren't employees and the apps aren't employers under the current law. [Edit - soz @footflaps on rereading I see you're making a slightly different point about the alternatives - rant below applies anyway].
The current law is mostly sensible in most areas of business - but it is clearly failing abysmally as far as the app economy is going. The government needs to pass special legislation to fix it: whether that's licensing delivery drivers/riders (just like taxi drivers and waste management companies need professional licences), or legislating that riders are to be treated as employees, or imposing minimum fees per drop on the market (in the same way govt sets price controls in special cases like taxis and water), I don't know.
But it's painfully obvious to everyone except Uber and Deliveroo that the current system is ****ed. And yes I do use the apps myself.
Deliveroo etc officially don’t allow it,
They do allow "rider substitution" and they claim that they (the apps) also run right to work checks even though it's the substituting rider-contractor's legal responsibility to check right to work of their "subcontractor".
https://riders.deliveroo.co.uk/en/substitution
Brazilian cleaner...reckons her compatriots can earn a grand a week doing deliveries and this is now the preferred job of cleaners .
There are a lot of Brazilian riders (quite a few women) around my way, and quite a few of the scooter shops are runs by Brazilians. So that much us plausible.
Maybe i am jealous or naive but I find it hard to believe that anyone's making a grand a week regularly from deliveries. If there were that much "fat" in it, Uber and Deliveroo would cut the drop fees again - they have all the data and power.
There is a middle tier of people who do have an incentive to exaggerate earning potential: the ones renting out their app accounts, renting out accommodation, selling bikes, lending money to buy bikes, selling dodgy ID, transporting people to the UK, lending money to buy transportation to the UK...and once you've ended up here £2k in debt for your scooter, £2k for your bunk, £2k for your flights...what are you going to do?
utterly exploitative and could all be easily sorted if we legislated to hole these companies feet to the fire as employers.
employee using illegal unregistered and uninsured e-motorbike? - hefty fine
employee hurts member of the public ? - full liability on the employer
delivery van driver pressurised to do 40 deliveries an hour so fails to yield right of way to a pedestrian at a junction - hefty fine on the employer
minicab driver fatigued because he hasn’t had a rest break and has an accident - employer fully liable
I know they’re not employees but if the government can go after people on IR35 they can sure as damn it clamp down on companies exploiting gig workers
we could solve all these problems in a heartbeat if we wanted to - but hey, these venture capital investors need to get their money back eh
Deliveroo? Uber eats? I have never used them. Or Uber. Of course we don't eat many carry outs. One a month maybe? Amazed how busy they are when we are told nobody has any money.
If carry out prices need to reflect a 20% delivery charge no wonder they are not a bargain.
Is the benefit of a ridiculous throttle powered death trap really worth that much over a 15mph pedal assist to someone making so little?
Yes because a bike that can do double that or more allows you to earn more money. Don’t forget they get poor pay, and paid per delivery
On a slightly more tenuous reason, 15mph is nothing and very easy to reach that speed at which point a traditional e-bikes feels slow, heavy ad sluggish. Plus at 15 mph your probably not quite keeping up with traffic flow, which again is dangerous
You mean enforce
Yeah, why not. but also nobody in government seems to be chasing Deliveroo etc al for their labour practices which is the root cause (although you could say the demand from customers is the real root cause)...
Not really, its a well researched thing...
Is it? Your linked article gave some vague numbers about some people detained for deportation (I assume) but what proportion of the Bristol delivery riders or indeed UK wide does that equate to? To be clear and asylum seeker waiting for their asylum claim to be processed isn't the same thing as an 'illegal immigrant' they have a different right to work status that is true, but that label and it's misuse matters.
Interestingly that same article contained the same conclusions I seem to be reaching, that we need to challenge these employers, which government/law still seem to lack the appetite for.
if you think about it, as its illegal to employ someone without a right to work, how many jobs exist where the employer and employee never get to meet?
Furious agreement, when is Deliveroo's court date?
To be clear and asylum seeker waiting for their asylum claim to be processed isn’t the same thing as an ‘illegal immigrant’ they have a different right to work status that is true, but that label and it’s misuse matters.
Asylum seekers are only allowed to work with Home Office permission - which they don't normally give and only usually consider it after 12 months and only usually allow it for certain jobs.
An asylum seeker that works without permission is an illegal immigrant - same as someone that enters on a tourist visa and works, someone that overstays on a work visa, someone that uses a work visa issued to someone else, someone that never goes through immigration inspection (which is relatively rare in the UK for obvious reasons...).
Brazilian cleaner…reckons her compatriots can earn a grand a week doing deliveries and this is now the preferred job of cleaners .
Sorry to mention this again but that goes against this research of a (relatively small group) of undocumented workers:
On average, our undocumented interviewees earned between £900 and £1,500 a month, after deducting their account and gear rental costs. Working weeks of 80 to 115 hours were common, meaning that they earned well below the UK’s national minimum wage (at the time of our interviews, £9.50 per hour for workers aged 23 and over).
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/irel.12320
If you were a documented worker, you'd be mad to be a "substitute contractor" because you'd be paying someone else for access to the app when you could sign up and get jobs on the app yourself, and you'd be paid less than any legal employment. There is no business case for being a "substitute contractor" unless you're an illegal immigrant - and that's why the whole arrangement should be shut down.
There must be workshops producing loads of them from Chinese kits as I don’t see recently arrived immigrants having the skills or contacts to do this.
You might be surprised by the ingenuity and resourcefulness of the folks from less affluent cultures. In fact, they are massively better at reduce/recycle/reuse that those from more consumerist cultures (especially the lard arses who can't be bothered to get off their arses to fetch their lard)
The whole "business" stinks but, for some reason, the powers that be seem unwilling or unable to deal with it.
I took a stroll into town, this morning, and the amount of dodgy looking bikes delivering food (at around 10:30 on a Saturday morning) was both shocking and makes for a worrying societal future.