[Closed] Integrated Gearbox/EMotor

This type of solution has to be the way forward - anything that helps bikes to be practical for more people

putting gears inside with the motor is the obvious logical step I think

Why is it "logical"?

Follow any emtb group on Facebook, the motors seem to break at an alarming rate. Until they stop making them out of cheese they better not add anymore complexity.

I’m looking for an e commuter but I’m put off any of these bb mounted systems.

Why is it “logical”?

Share a housing, weight central and if a suspension bike sprung.  All seems sensible and motorcycles being that way suggests it is a sound idea

I thought e-bike motors were aready internally geared, in which case it makes sense to do away with one ratio. Unit gearboxes will also simplify chain line, hopefully extending longevity.

motorcycles being that way suggests it is a sound idea

Motorbikes crank out massive power compared to an e-bike. A derailleur system would not work with that sort of power. Gearboxes have a lot more friction than a derailleur system and are much more expensive to build, that's why derailleurs are so dominant on bicycles. On top of that, they take up a lot of space around where you need to put suspension pivots, so using an off-the-shelf system would force bike designers to compromise on suspension design. Sure, you could combine a gearbox with a motor in a custom design to work around suspension pivots, but then it wouldn't be an off-the-shelf integrated design, so it would be expensive.

If you go back through the forum archives for the last 15 years, you'll see there's a "gearboxes will be the next big thing" thread every few months. Gearboxes do have a solid niche market, but they are too expensive and too draggy to replace derailleurs. Same thing holds for e-bikes.

I think it is logical is to keep all the gubbins in one place, central and low and protected/lubricated. Mid motors plus normal derailleurs seems an odd mix. Gubbins in one protected place and then a simple straight run to the wheel seems best all round, especially as it will reduce the unsprung mass.

There was talk of Shimano 'gearbox' system that is effectively a housed derailleur system.

I think it is logical is to keep all the gubbins in one place, central and low and protected/lubricated.

It's logical for companies to build products that are profitable. Gearboxes are expensive.

“Why is it “logical”?“

Because an ebike motor plus a reasonably strong rider is too much torque for normal cassettes to handle. I haven’t yet got more than 600 miles out of a cassette without it getting badly behaved.

but they are too expensive and too draggy to replace derailleurs. Same thing holds for e-bikes.

There's no such thing as a bike that is too expensive and you've got a motor to overcome drag.

“It’s logical for companies to build products that are profitable. Gearboxes are expensive.”

Yes. But if a company comes up with something that’s game-changing that can claim far more of the market and make them a lot more money. A good example is the recent change in inkjet printers - having been charged obscene prices for cartridges for decades, one of the manufacturers came up with a system based around ink tanks. The printers cost more but it’s worth the money because the running cost is so so much lower.

Am I the only one concerned about that XL-size bloke riding S-size bike in the linked photo?

you’ve got a motor to overcome drag

The extra drag means that you need a bigger, heavier, more expensive battery for the same range.

Am I the only one concerned about that XL-size bloke riding S-size bike in the linked photo?

They are obviously pitching their (vapourware) product at town bikes, not the enthusiast market.

Combined e-bike motor and gearbox was supposedly on the product roadmap for Pinion when they launched the original gearbox but still hasn't launched.

Size/configuration/supension was a bit of an issue with the Pinion boxes but e-bike motors are no different and everyone has worked around it. Even if not for mountain bikes I can see benefits for 'utility' commute bikes (though selling enough to recover development costs always the issue)

[edit - clicks on link and now realises that's exactly whats in the OP. Though wtf is that guy doing on that size bike?]

Valeo are a major vehicle component supplier, much like Bosch, suspect they see a market opportunity, as ebikes and the faster pedalecs are the growth area, especially as they also tranisition from IC vehicles to EVs etc.

Valeo are a major vehicle component supplier, much like Bosch, suspect they see a market opportunity, as ebikes and the faster pedalecs are the growth area have little understanding of the bicycle market

FTFY

The extra drag means that you need a bigger, heavier, more expensive battery for the same range.

No you don't because drag is actually quite minimal and no one is really running their range to the max, plus batteries are getting bigger and bigger anyway.

We are looking at this from a eMTB perspective, on the continent ebikes for utility are the major sellers.

Bosch are the dominant provider at the moment for mid mount.

Anyway this was all just for interest.

drag is actually quite minimal

With an e-bike, you'll need a sturdier gearbox than a regular bike. You'll probably be looking at a 5% to 10% power loss through friction, compared with 1% to 2% for a well lubricated derailleur.

no one is really running their range to the max

Because they turn down the power to conserve the battery. If you run them at full boost all the time, you'll run out of charge in no time.

With an e-bike, you’ll need a sturdier gearbox than a regular bike

Nicolai have been running Rohloff hubs on ebikes for a while so perhaps this isn’t the case.

“Because they turn down the power to conserve the battery. If you run them at full boost all the time, you’ll run out of charge in no time.”

With a 500Wh battery and a 250W motor, exactly how long is “no time”?

Because they turn down the power to conserve the battery. If you run them at full boost all the time, you’ll run out of charge in no time.

I hope and expect power, range and weight all to be improved in the near future

Terns latest top of the range GSD has a Rohloff.

With a 500Wh battery and a 250W motor, exactly how long is “no time”?

i did a 375 w battery in 8 miles once - derestricted flat out for the whole 8 miles

I wonder what's inside it? A planetary system would not be any good with an automatic transmission as you have to ease off the pedals to shift.

Maybe a planetary bearing based system like the nu Vinci one.

Read the press release, says it’s a partnership with Effigear.

With an e-bike, you’ll need a sturdier gearbox than a regular bike. You’ll probably be looking at a 5% to 10% power loss through friction, compared with 1% to 2% for a well lubricated derailleur.

Bollox. any of the current offerings will be fine. If need be reduce torque by going for a higher overall gearing - which is easily done with the extra power

Most current ebikes are well overpowered I recon (hence the ebike lite trend with lighter less powerful motors)

I bit less power to run a gearbox would be fine.

Also derailleurs are crap in the mud so a sealed unit would be much better and you'd get better drivetrain longevity.

Look at the millyard bike. If you could power that with an pedal assist motor it would be mint!

Partnership with Effigear, keeping it French.

I think it is logical is to keep all the gubbins in one place, central and low and protected/lubricated. Mid motors plus normal derailleurs seems an odd mix. Gubbins in one protected place and then a simple straight run to the wheel seems best all round, especially as it will reduce the unsprung mass.

There was talk of Shimano ‘gearbox’ system that is effectively a housed derailleur system.

@rootes1 - Honda made such a system in their experimental DH bike (which did quite well, but then it was Minaar riding it) and got some patents for it. The story I recall hints that Shimano may have accquired the Honda technology and extended it. There is loads of interesting stuff in the Shimano patent back-catalogue, it may or may not ever see the light of day.

@greyspoke, yes I do recall this from back in the day. seems a good bike solution to a std pinion and spur system.

I wonder what’s inside it? A planetary system would not be any good with an automatic transmission as you have to ease off the pedals to shift.

I wonder how all those automatic transmission cars powershift...

<<I wonder how all those automatic transmission cars powershift…>>

in traditional slush box (ZF, hydromatic etc, not DSG type) the various planetary gear sets are all in constant mesh and each is controlled by a clutch, each pass to the next as the shift is made - sprag clutch in mechanical systems or electronic control

this differs to bike IGH like SA etc as they use a dog arrangement to bring each gears set into operation and hence the need to back the power off a bit.

Rohloff uses a series of pawls and clutch's and is more tolerant of power shifts though depends on which gear as some gears are just a pawl and some are a combination of pawl and clutch.

Suppose it just comes down to space issues.

The Kindernay hub gear is meant to shift under load, but not had a go or even seen one in the flesh.