[Closed] instagram live has changed my mind on frame - Help!

You can probably buy the bird without a shock, use the (excellent) shock you have, and there's nothing else in stock

Buy the Bird, and tell us about the IG cockup.

Am9 owner here, it just works. Three years old next month, no issues.

May delivery bikes are due in very soon, just saying...

So without naming names

Whisper it, if only to stop us from recommending something you now won’t buy.

As per the Singletrack tradition of "recommend what you have" I would seriously recommend the RocketMax. Just got it around a month ago and it's such an amazing bike. Descends better, jumps better, climbs better than the bike it's replacing, I'm able to keep up with mates I never thought I would be able to now, so it's objectively quicker if that's what you're in to.

Won't fit the 230x65 I assume you have (out by 2.5mm on the stroke volume), but I'm really impressed by the DB Kitsuma, you'd get a fair chunk for the shock selling it on I'm sure?

They have stock of L and XL in both colours right now so you would def have it by July. I've bought a rocketmax full bike and Bfe frame off them recently and they've been such lovely people to deal with that in the unlikely event something did go wrong they'd sort you out quickly no bother.

Also you mentioned the weight of the privateer as a con - rocketmax was the lightest of the test bikes in bikeradars bike of the year test as well

I'm not naming the brand as I could have misinterpreted it.

Essentially they went live and the feed i logged into heard them mention not to focus on the wear on the shock or where the linkage has worn the frame. then it cut off.

So, on that basis i've read into it that the frame is either very flexible and causing wear were it shouldn't or it is entirely possible they have absolutely hammered their bikes and wanted to show them off in the best light by not focussing too closely on said worn areas.

Either way, i'm out.

I think Privateer is out on the weight basis.

so that does just leave the AM9 and the Cotic.
My shock is a 230 x 57.5 and only 2 rides old. i'd need to get the stroke adjusted to fit either frame, but it will fit both of them. Just the small matter of £1k difference in price, which makes the AM9 really appealing, even though its not the prettiest.
Do cotic do without the shock does anyone know?

There has to be more out there than those 2 though.

Available / not too expensive and meeting the brief I’m not sure there are many alternatives. Commencal worth a look maybe?

If it comes down to the AM9 vs Cotic I guess you just need to decide what the Cotic does better for the extra money.

One is 4 bar (AM9), one is linkage controlled single pivot.

I’m guessing the Bird is lighter frame wise?

The Cotic is perhaps a little bit more special to people who like skinny tubed steel.

Does the geometry on both hot your requirements?

Both are decent companies so I don’t think you can lose either way.

Do cotic do without the shock does anyone know?

Not sure, but I doubt it as IIRC they only warranty frames with the OE shock fitted, so wouldn’t make sense to sell without. (Happy to be corrected)

The Cotic is perhaps a little bit more special to people who like skinny tubed steel.

If they did it in Orange, this post wouldn't exist, ha! current colours are just dull and uninspiring (to me at least)

Geometry on the Bird i'd adjust by putting a -1deg headset in, other than that, both are roughly what I am looking for geo wise, but am happy to look at alternatives that are a little either side of the brief!

Interesting point about potentially not warrantying Cotics without the shock. seems odd to me if its the right size and stroke.

thanks so far for the replies.

Oh and Commencal are September/October for the most part, so that rules them out

Got a Gen1 RocketMax and it’s very capable even with just the 140mm travel. Have upped the fork to 160mm (max warrantied travel) and it’s great fun. Used it everything from days in the lakes to uplift to week long Alps trips and a week with Basque MTB. Test ride one when they open up their demo days and see what you think. It was between that and a Bird at the time I was in the market for a new bike so suspect either would be more than good enough.

At the moment a Large Raw AM9 is looking like the option i will go for, just got this nagging feeling i've forgotten about something i really wanted. just can't think what!

Nukeproof Mega?

I want to know why Bird and Cotic don't make frames like this for people who don't want to go 29.

Edit.
It seems Bird actually may do.

I want to know why Bird and Cotic don’t make frames like this for people who don’t want to go 29.

They do, the AM160?

weeksy

I want to know why Bird and Cotic don’t make frames like this for people who don’t want to go 29.

Cotic make the Rocket, which is the original 27.5 wheel version of the RocketMax 29er.

https://www.cotic.co.uk/product/rocket

I want to know why Bird and Cotic don’t make frames like this for people who don’t want to go 29.

Because then they'd be something else

I'm not expressing myself very cleary am I

The great thing about both of those two companies is you could call either of them up tomorrow, speak with someone who knows the bikes inside out, and give their view on whether the frame would work with your shock. You’re paying top £ for premium British brands, you may as well make the most of the pre sales support that goes with with that. I’d start with that.

@benpinnick I'll give you a call tomorrow to discuss the AM9

One of my riding buddies has recently taken delivery of the AM9in raw, can’t say much about how it rides but it looks great in the flesh and it’s done his riding no harm.

weeksy
Full Member

I want to know why Bird and Cotic don’t make frames like this for people who don’t want to go 29.

Cotic still sell the 650b rocket, though, there's no trailbike, no Flare/Jeht in 650b. TBH Cotic's wheel size policy seems sensibly demand-led.

Anyone else click on this thinking it was a typo... 🙂

instagram live has changed my mind on [b]fame[/b]

I'd really like to know who it is with frames that eat themselves and their shocks. Might be nice to warn others in this community of potential problems before we drop our cash on such things.

Raaw Jibb? Or Madonna's are coming in to stock soon.

At the top end of you price bracket. But i would say far nicer than the mentioned options (IMO of course).

I have put a deposit on a Privateer 141. The weight is a disappointment, but i just want something that is bombproof. The misery of being without a bike due to frame failure is too much for me to deal with a second time round! (thats under the assumption that heavy is reliable!)

I’d really like to know who it is with frames that eat themselves and their shocks. Might be nice to warn others in this community of potential problems before we drop our cash on such things.

Likewise. I'm sniffing around a replacement 29er trail/enduro frame and knowing my luck I'd pick whatever brand is being referred to here.

The misery of being without a bike due to frame failure is too much for me to deal with a second time round! (thats under the assumption that heavy is reliable!)

Bike weight (to a point) is all in the head, a lb or two in frame weight makes no difference.

During lockdown 1.0, rode the 161 locally, on a set of xc wheels/tyres, was same speed as the trail bike and quicker than the hardtail. (all on same or similar tyres)

Essentially they went live and the feed i logged into heard them mention not to focus on the wear on the shock or where the linkage has worn the frame. then it cut off.

Classy company, good to see their designing, manufacturing, QC and testing process is on point.

have you viewed the Banshee offerings - Titan and Prime?? Framt + Shock @ £2K. They are very nice frames.. (i've got the Spitty V3 on very small wheels)

I used to have a bike that ate shocks - clearly a design flaw. Got the first one warrantied then when the 2nd one died & I had to buy a new one I just couldn't ride it. So totally get where you are coming from.

I'd add the Nukeproof Mega AL to the list.

Maybe the Vitus Sommet too.

Am9 or Propain Tyee or RAAW

They come from the same factory I think

Ibis Ripmo AF?

I have an AM9 and love it. They are not "cheap" just great value.

Steel has no place in FS designs, flex is not what you want in suspension components so they build heavy. Also single pivots should have gone in the bin with URT years ago, always a very compromised kinematic.

I'd get the AM9 seeing as you already have the shock. You won't be disappointed, although you may buy a coil shock for it sometime.

Am9 or Propain Tyee or RAAW

They do indeed come from the same factory.

@benpinnick

They do indeed come from the same factory.

Interesting. Clearly your bikes are excellent value, I have two friends who I've recommended them to over the years and they have been nothing short of awesome.
Working in the trade over the last decade I've had access to all sorts of exotica at knock down rates. So it's a weird situation to be in paying full retail price 🤣
I do tend to like quirky left field choices but usually regret it.
Are you available for a chat later this afternoon Ben?

Banshee Prime or Titan seconded.

I have a Prime and it's bloody lovely.  135mm of travel out back but feels more.

Norco Sight?

Ok so its lots more (£2600) but a deviate highlander with a 150mm link would be an amazing choice.

Based in stirling (not built in uk) so very available for a chat and Ben is a sound guy.

Look up videos by mctrailrider to see one in action.

“ Steel has no place in FS designs, flex is not what you want in suspension components so they build heavy.”

Except steel is stiffer than aluminium and Cotic’s steel bikes are a similar weight to comparable alloy ones - and lighter than quite a lot of them.

“Also single pivots should have gone in the bin with URT years ago, always a very compromised kinematic.”

This sentence has been written by someone who knows how to spell kinematic but not what it means. In the last three seasons of men’s WC DH, 2020 had single pivots coming 1st and 5th, 2019 had single pivots coming 2nd and 4th and 2018 had single pivots coming 1st and 2nd. 40% of the top five for the last three years.

chiefgrooveguru

“ Steel has no place in FS designs, flex is not what you want in suspension components so they build heavy.”

Except steel is stiffer than aluminium and Cotic’s steel bikes are a similar weight to comparable alloy ones – and lighter than quite a lot of them

And Cotics have aluminium rear ends.

If its who I think it is on Instragram the video is still there. I think they were just talking about crash damage?

View this post on Instagram

And Cotics have aluminium rear ends.

Partial aluminium. The seat stays are steel and the chainstays aluminium.

@Daver27 sorry only just caught up on the thread. You can give me a shout on 0333 444 0629 whenever suits you 🙂

I've seen it too and thought much the same as HH above.

This sentence has been written by someone who knows how to spell kinematic but not what it means. In the last three seasons of men’s WC DH, 2020 had single pivots coming 1st and 5th, 2019 had single pivots coming 2nd and 4th and 2018 had single pivots coming 1st and 2nd. 40% of the top five for the last three years.

With all due respect I'd suggest you do some research. If you want the bike to do more than one thing well, i.e. plummet downhill, such as pedal well back up or along, then restricting the axle path and shock actuation with a single pivot massively compromises the bike.

@timber @HoratioHufnagel now you have posted it I feel justified in opening up on why I made this post.

Its an odd choice of words don't you think? broken spoke and then says "so long as you didn't zoom in on the shock or the wear on the yoke" its enough to make shy away from buying one. When someone specifically states not to focus on something that has wear, it says its not accident damage and they don't want it pointed out.

Real shame as I have a Moxie MX3 and it is bloody amazing, hands down my favourite bike in 35 years of riding, and that from someone who has been steadfastly on the side of full sus since the early 90s.

As I said, it could be totally innocent and not actually be a problem with the bike, hence I did not want to tar them with any bad press, but its on Instagram and in the public domain, so hey ho. Its enough for me to move along and find an alternative, been there and done that with bikes eating shocks (Empire Mx6 Evo) and do not want to go down that path again if there is even a hint of that potentially expensive problem down the line.

“With all due respect I’d suggest you do some research. If you want the bike to do more than one thing well, i.e. plummet downhill, such as pedal well back up or along, then restricting the axle path and shock actuation with a single pivot massively compromises the bike.”

Ha! If you want a bike to pedal well uphill then it’s just a case of positioning the instant centre to get sufficient anti-squat. This is easily achievable on a single pivot bike.

And regarding shock actuation, it’s easily possible for a single pivot to achieve a leverage curve matching multi-pivot designs, as shown by Evil, Commencal, Cotic, Saracen, Forbidden, Trek, etc etc.

Not quite sure why you’re claiming axle path is an issue when high single pivots have some of the best axle paths (mostly rearwards) and many four bar bikes have some of the worst (mostly forwards).

I wouldn't write off buying that particular frame myself. There is a parts shortage at the moment shock could be an old one they had lying around, the yoke could be prototype or for a different size frame (happens occasionally with Commencal which causes rub on smaller frames - fixed under warranty pretty quick)

I wouldn’t write off buying that particular frame myself. There is a parts shortage at the moment shock could be an old one they had lying around, the yoke could be prototype or for a different size frame (happens occasionally with Commencal which causes rub on smaller frames – fixed under warranty pretty quick)

I'm not for one second saying anyone should and as i've said and you mention here it could just be that. but... its enough to put me off personally (once bitten twice shy), which is a shame as its a wonderful looking thing that ticks all the boxes for me. I even had it in the basket and was an hour away from buying it.

Ha! If you want a bike to pedal well uphill then it’s just a case of positioning the instant centre to get sufficient anti-squat. This is easily achievable on a single pivot bike.

Ha! Think about it. What happens to everything else when you move the instant centre in that way. What do you compromise? On a single pivot the instant centre is fixed. Would in not be better to have control over the instant centre through the travel in a true 4 bar?

And regarding shock actuation, it’s easily possible for a single pivot to achieve a leverage curve matching multi-pivot designs, as shown by Evil, Commencal, Cotic, Saracen, Forbidden, Trek, etc etc.

Yep, but again fixed through the travel.

Not quite sure why you’re claiming axle path is an issue when high single pivots have some of the best axle paths (mostly rearwards) and many four bar bikes have some of the worst (mostly forwards).

Again, the axle path can be tuned through travel on a true 4 bar.

Whether your average rider notices all this or not, or values the simplicity and stiffness of a single pivot bike over the complexity of a multi pivot bike is down to the individual.

This debate is as old as the hills, let's agree to disagree.

“ Would in not be better to have control over the instant centre through the travel in a true 4 bar?”

It can be beneficial but in a typical 4 bar the anti-squat, anti-rise, axle path, kickback and leverage curve all interact so you can’t change anything independently. With a single pivot and a linkage to the shock then you can have independence of leverage rate and anti-squat/rise and then adding an idler separates out kickback, whilst a floating brake mount or concentric rear pivot isolates brake anti-rise.

“ Yep, but again fixed through the travel.”

No, this is completely incorrect.

“ Again, the axle path can be tuned through travel on a true 4 bar.”

Not by very much - if the instant centre is way forwards then it’s vertical. If it’s rearwards then it has more longitudinal movement. If it’s high then that movement is more rearwards, if it’s low then it’s more forwards.

With the long links of typical four bar designs the IC can’t move all that much. With short link designs it moves more.

Wzzzzz, how about winning countless xc world cups? Is that more than just plummet downhill? How many vpp bikes have won an xco race recently?

To follow up on the original part of this thread, not whatever ^ is...

One Catflap Grey AM9 in Large ordered after a great chat with Ben from Bird, thanks @Benpinnick, much appreciated

Sweet - you’re going to love it I’m sure 💪

Are people still writing off single pivots like it's the 1990s? Weird.

Love the "Catflap Grey" colour name!