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Exciting times for the tweed valley. Looks like the finding is going ahead! "£13 million will be attributed to the construction of the MTB Innovation Centre Building and £6 million will foot the bill for construction of a bike park." Seems like the amounts should be the other way around!
Wow!
Seems like the amounts should be the other way around!
Sounds enterprise based so probably not. This isnt a trail centre hub they're building.
Good news either way.
Fabulous!
Brilliant news.
Let's hope they pick a slightly more inspiring location than at the bottom of a hill next to a manky burn for the flagship building....
Have I got deja vu or do they not already have a building just up the road in glentress?
This looks like it will be more like buildings used for development rather than the office space and cafe at glentress
"Innovation center" sounds more like they want companies to startup or base themselves there rather than a cafe, i.e. the next Hope or Planet-X?
£13million would be a massive warehouse though so there must be more to it?
Sounds good pending more info 🙂
Fabulous 🙂
Borderlands Growth Deal.
Leading to a post-apocalyptic wasteland brimming with mutated, heavily-armed freaks?
Leading to a post-apocalyptic wasteland brimming with mutated, heavily-armed freaks?
Na, inners isn't in staggering distance of Lanarkshire really.
£13million would be a massive warehouse though so there must be more to it?
Architectural wooden cladding, fancy floor to ceiling windows with built in shades, interpretation boards dotted around the grounds and a few oversized twee quotes stencilled on the walls?
I worry that the bikepark will fall by the wayside and that the innovation centre could end up being a white elephant that torpedoes any future biking development funding in the Borders/Scotland. I guess 6m won't go that far in building a bikepark either. What did they spend at bike park Wales? Probably not far off that and it doesn't include a chairlift.
I think it's quite smart making it industry focused rather than just chasing tourist money again. And creating decent facilities to be used by locals and visitors.
So do I recall that this "bike park" is planned to be at the Golfie rather than where the uplift runs now?
Reread and changed my moan...
I'd also like to see money spread around but sometimes there is only a return if it's all spent at one location / hub. I don't know what unemployment rates are like in the area now but those were a major driver in the initial 7 Stanes investment.
They might have waited until after the Scottish borders cycling development group meeting tonight. That's the rest of the borders screwed.
How much to buy the golf course and turn it into a car park, got to make sure T5 drivers can park as close as possible to the trails.
Can anyone remember the original plans ? , Was it a chairlift to the top of the moor (Lone wolf) . I think Its great news personally as take into account the footfall at GT , Inners and the Golfie over a weekend theres a good chance it could be a success. Im sure the peel build total was around 8 million and gave you Alpine , A large but ultimately dissapointing cafe , toilet block , wildlife room and the forestry offices.
Still investment can only be good for the area as long as they dont butcher the brilliant Golfie trails.
IIRC it wasn't a chair lift, it was basically a roller coaster, and it wasnt golfie side, it was plora side.
A shame that inners faces North.
Also a shame that money is not going to be spread around the Borders.
Those concerns aside, this is a Good Thing.
The original plans were for that side. The latest plans suggest the golfie is the preference now for a chairlift/bikepark.
Some key points from that DMBinS link...
(Caberston = Golfie BTW)
Location appraisal considers a wide number of factors including; Elevation profile, ownership of land, suitable land for base facilities, relief – ability to get a return to base blue trail in place, trail conflicts and many more factors.
• The current site preference is the front face of Caberston Forest working in full collaboration with the Innerleithen Golf Club.
• A chair lift is considered the most sustainable uplift model due to a host of financial and practical considerations
• The bike park would likely employ 5 full time trail crew, bike patrol staff, operations staff and a full office team. It would also work closely with local businesses to collaborate and avoid competition.
• Full SOAC rights would remain to the site with open access at all times to the trails, only the uplift would be chargeable.
• The bike park would respect the heritage and design of Innerleithen’s trails but would add a handful of machine built bike-park style trails. These would be on a scale and technicality to compete with destinations like Whistler. If Caberston is to be the location early workings indicate no existing trails would need to be lost but some may be altered.
I think that was the aim:up project nobeer which i think isn't part of this .
A shame that inners faces North.
Caberston faces west.
Ok, I'm confused. Who are DMBinS in relation to MTBCOS? Is the £6M left in the pot after constructing a £13M innovation centre/building going to pay for a chair lift and the handful new trails to rival Whistler?
You wouldn't be the first person to be confused about Dimbits.
Caberston faces west
*Blushes*
I think that was the aim:up project nobeer which i think isn’t part of this .
Aye, it's the only fixed uplift I'd seen touted for the area though.
They mention a chairlift is the preferred option for the new Golfie project above too.
• Full SOAC rights would remain to the site with open access at all times to the trails, only the uplift would be chargeable.
• The bike park would respect the heritage and design of Innerleithen’s trails but would add a handful of machine built bike-park style trails
Those would cover my main concerns .
i would like to see the thinking behind a chairlift over an uplift , not saying it’s not the better option but surely it comes with its own issues .
Just out of interest does anyone know roughly how high and big BPW is compared to caberston forest ? I haven’t been to BPW but is that the kind of thing we’re talking about here ?
A chair lift at caberston would be tremendous tbh, fingers crossed.
got to make sure T5 drivers can park as close as possible to the trails.
ermagerd I hope you're not going to park your povvy T5 next to my T6
Just seen this news, a chairlift would be amazing
Just out of interest does anyone know roughly how high and big BPW is compared to caberston forest ? I haven’t been to BPW but is that the kind of thing we’re talking about here ?
It amazing what you can figure out looking at Strava!
Vertical drop at Caberston is about 250-300m for the majority of the trails. Priesthope Hill is about 540m and the Golf Club is about 200m above sea level. Most of the trails start a bit lower than the very top of the hill though.
BPW is pretty similar trails start at 500m and end down at 200-220M
For comparison to Fort Bill the trails there have around a 550m drop (650m down to 100m)
Whistler has 1000m+!
Interestingly I don't see any specific mention of a chairlift in this most recent announcement despite that being the original intent of this new initiative. Odds on there's no chairlift and it's multiple buses. No way can they build a chairlift and the new trails plus upgrading existing trails for £6 million if it's apparently costing £13 million for a new building.
Unless the 13 million 'buildings' are the chairlift part.
A chair lift is considered the most sustainable uplift model due to a host of financial and practical considerations
From that report
Buildings would be this lot?
moonsaballoon
Subscriber
Just out of interest does anyone know roughly how high and big BPW is compared to caberston forest ? I haven’t been to BPW but is that the kind of thing we’re talking about here ?
Surprisingly similar. But they feel pretty different just because of how they tend to use the hill (I'm pretty certain that Caberston is a steeper hill.
It really depends what you do with it. FOD's van uplift is on a fairly pathetic hill, but it still works fantastically as an uplift venue. I used to think you needed a big hill, before I rode there, most runs deliver more than an equivalent run at BPW.
Many people get confused by the mention of the Scottish Borders ie this does not include(excludes)Dumfries and Galloway.
Huge sums of money are mentioned. Remove consultant fees, planning fees, contractor fees and the usual f....... up fees and not a lot will be delivered
Hope it does
Would also like to see some Borderlands investment in the D&G trails rather than the rumours that some will be allowed to return back to nature.....
D&G needs as much investment in its tourism industry as the Borders.
Will end rant there.......
Trekster. You make a good point. Mabie, Kirroughtre, Dalbeattie, Glentrool Ae etc... Are all in D&G and not Scottish Borders. It's not like D&G is a tourist Mecca that can pull crowds regardless of investment and it's crying out for a pull factor. Would be nice to see some east west balance.
This is a problem with all investment in Southern Scotland in that it is felt to be Borders biased. I hope that South of Scotland Enterprise might help rebalance things but that's a big ask and too late for this sort of investment.
It's a great investment in Inverleithen and there will be a lot of envious bike businesses, riders and people generally in D&G who will be wondering when it will be their turn to see some investment on this scale.
My rant over!
John, As do many other areas of Scotland, but it also makes sense to have a centre of excellence.
It's a pain in the arse for me to get to, ho hum.
I'm not sure it is as the current thinking is the centre of excellence gets everything and there is nothing left for anywhere else.
The whole of Scotland is a centre of excellence so things should be spread around d to support a lot more than some place that hasalready had a massive slice of the pie.
It's chicken and egg though, innit? They need footfall to keep the businesses going that will be going into those buildings, and they have the numbers over there.
Lots of the other stanes and the likes of laggan n glenlivet struggle to even keep a cafe going.
sas78 thing is d&g feel it's borders getting the money most of the borders south of the ettrick feel it's the tweed valley getting the money.
Peebles and inners are both close enough to be Edinburgh (they have EH postcodes) so they have commuters who are willing and able, and may have more clout, to campaign for projects that will make their towns better and improve facilities. After all they moved there for the access to the outdoors. Once that ball starts rolling it gathers weight and draws more in.
I was at a borders cycling development meeting. And apart from me and a bloke from Berwick everyone else was valley. This group can access info and funds so guess where it ends up.
I remember looking at the business case for Aim-Up (and shamelessly stealing some points to get funding from Event Scotland) and the Tweed Valley is within 90 mins drive of 3 big centres, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Newcastle - around 3 million people. It just makes sense as a location in terms of potential audience.
Hels and that's why it's on a winner. Kirroughtree could be the best place in the world but population and transport infrastructure are always against it.
Indeed - we even have the Borders Buses number 62 bike bus now, aimed at people coming to Glentress from Edinburgh or Galashiels/Melrose without a car. They recently announced the service has been a success and is expanding.
Kirroughtree is amazing but it seems to be at least 2 hours from everywhere.
All the Western Stanes have this disadvantage although not as bad as Kirroughtree.
Ae at least avoids having to drive through Dumfries to get to it, but its not the most inspriring place. So it does make sense to spend the money in the Tweed Valley.
Just don't tell anyone about Comrie!
Ae at least avoids having to drive through Dumfries to get to it, but its not the most inspriring place
Last time I went to Kirro, went up Cairnsmore of fleet first, then went for a lap of the red. That was the plan anyway, I never got much further than the top of the first climb, the lunar like landscape left behind post forestry work robbed the place of it's atmosphere, for me anyway.
Ae is a far better place for me now, good cafe with good folks running it, and an abundance of bloody good trails all over the hill now, and cracking views from the top. Strangely, I think the deforestation will work to improve Ae, makes it much easier for the guys down there to pick lines for cutting, which they have already.
I total get why they are focusing all the money on one location rather than spreading it thinly over several sites in Scotland. The tweed valley probably has the most extensive and diverse range of riding, granted there are individual places in Scotland that equal or exceed specific trail areas in the tweed valley, but collectively it has to be the top destination, particularly when you factor in accessibility.
My only concern, and maybe a local will put me right. Is that with such large amounts of money been accessed, and with such a large proportion going on the centre and not the trail structure and facilities for riders, that those in charge are local individuals that have for a number of years worked hard to promote and drive mountain biking in the valley. Not individuals chasing the money who know how to access grant funding, pay themselves 100k+ salaries for several years to oversea the project and don’t deliver something any where near what was originally anticipated for riders who would in turn pay back into the local economy, though stays, eating etc. Probs just means being cautious and if they fall into the former I wish them every success.
I just don't get the obsession with the chairlift/rollercoaster, the BPW model seems to work incredibly well. Why aren't they looking to let adrenaline (or another company) expand to run a service all week still covering Innerleithen trails and adding in up to the high road point of the Golfie. Very aware it still leaves a push up to the top trails which I've not got an answer for but the van uplift model seems so much easier than building a dedicated mechanism to get to the top.
Even if they ran at Inners only Monday to Thursday and then up the Golfie as well at the weekend and split out the busses across the sites. Would be a lot easier to split out the trails into different gradings too as the Golfie will be very difficult to cater for easy/blue type trails with the way it loses gradient.
I'd also be incredibly worried about the popularity of e-bikes if spending millions on a fixed uplift, sure there will still be some wanting an uplift but there will be plenty justifying the outlay against not having to pay for uplifts...
As above though, I genuinely do hope it is successful and will be a customer whichever way it turns out!
I remember looking at the business case for Aim-Up (and shamelessly stealing some points to get funding from Event Scotland) and the Tweed Valley is within 90 mins drive of 3 big centres, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Newcastle – around 3 million people. It just makes sense as a location in terms of potential audience.
But then the argument 10 years ago was the Tweed Valley needed the investments to get it's tourist industry of the ground. Not turn it into a commuter town for outdoorsy people.
If the argument was to spend the money within 90 minutes drive of x million people we'd be talking about public funding for Aston Hill or a chairlift at Peaslake.
If the argument was to spend the money within 90 minutes drive of x million people we’d be talking about public funding for Aston Hill or a chairlift at Peaslake.
Do you think the Scottish Govt would stump up for those?
The Tweed Valley is the Scottish version of the Surrey Hills anyway.
So what does a centre of excellence do exactly? It just a trumped up cafe? 😆
I’d also be incredibly worried about the popularity of e-bikes if spending millions on a fixed uplift, sure there will still be some wanting an uplift but there will be plenty justifying the outlay against not having to pay for uplifts…
Think you are totally correct. Been thinking this for a while. Would imagine e-DH geometry bikes are going to be pretty standard in the next few years. Outrageous geometry that can still be peddled up hill. Been bumping into packs of e-bikers in the Alps cycling uphill for last couple of years, even with the lifts running.
just don’t get the obsession with the chairlift/rollercoaster
Aye, adrenalin works well too, but to me vans and trailers will always seem like a bodged sticking plaster type solution, an actual fixed chairlift would give the place a feeling of a resort, something tangible, a visible reason to go there.
The idea of going to the Nevis range always excites me more than a day on an uplift bus tbh.
an actual fixed chairlift would give the place a feeling of a resort, something tangible, a visible reason to go there.
+1
I find van uplift a bit annoying and stop-starty.
Turnaround time would surely be quicker on a chairlift too.
Aye, adrenalin works well too, but to me vans and trailers will always seem like a bodged sticking plaster type solution, an actual fixed chairlift would give the place a feeling of a resort, something tangible, a visible reason to go there.
The idea of going to the Nevis range always excites me more than a day on an uplift bus tbh
Absolutely agree with that (and the quicker turnaround point). Just can't see how the business case could actually stack up against an improved van service. Was it not about £13m previously estimated to stick in a fixed uplift? Not sure if they're planning something enclosed - it could be pretty grim heading up the hill soaked through in an open uplift!
I would absolutely love a chairlift, or even better a network across the valley, but I just can't see how it makes financial sense just for bikers.
Genuinely do hope I'm wrong though and it helps to develop the Tweed Valley into even more of a biking resort - and hopefully not at the expense of other parts of the valley.
Also, I recall the first winter Gordo was running the uplifts, there was a hell of a lot of days the vans couldn't get up the hill due to the ice.
Business case would stack up with other visitors, zipwires, toboganning, bird watching, hill access for hill walking etc. Before you even talk about increase in numbers to the area, jobs etc.
I dislike the vans. It causes congestion at both ends with a large group launching at pretty much the same time. And I've been beeped and closely passed at by a couple of vans a couple of times certainly got my adrenaline up.
Might be wrong here, but wasn't there some talk about some of the money being used to convert part of the old Innerleithen mill building into an innovation centre (for Borders College or something?). Maybe the mixed development idea at the mill has gone out of the window in preference for housing?
As far as the uplift goes, I was initially very sceptical about a fixed uplift, but having used van-based uplifts, I can appreciate what people have already said regarding turnaround times. I hadn't thought about the potential for other user groups too. I guess if it's run on electricity from renewable sources it's got to be more enviro-friendly than a fleet of diesel minibuses.
To be fair to adrenaline, they are very slick and well run, I've never had to wait much, always a decent turnaround.
I'd just prefer the flexibility of a ski lift type affair.
So what does a centre of excellence do exactly? It just a trumped up cafe?
gives a location for several startup companies to operate and get government funding before they go into receivership
I dislike the vans. It causes congestion at both ends with a large group launching at pretty much the same time. And I’ve been beeped and closely passed at by a couple of vans a couple of times certainly got my adrenaline up.
yeah I've had one very close fast pass with one seemingly out of control on the way down as well as the usual anooyance
Did anyone raise a concern with Adrenaline on the incidents?. I'm pretty sure Gordo wouldn't be too enamoured if his drivers were behaving like that.
It shouldn't happen, but tbh it's not that surprising, there's more traffic on that road than ever before (outside of races, but there's less bikes on the road during races). This is one thing that BPW really does well, they've done a lot to separate bikes and vans.
There's a few ways to tackle it well but none of them are free. Me, I think it'd tie in well with a general "improve the uplift road"
If nothing else it'd be a good idea to put signs up at conflict points, for both bikes and drivers. I think a lot of people just don't expect to see vehicles at all
Brilliant news I think for the whole area , I wonder how long till Inners gets a travel lodge. Joking aside Im shocked this went ahead in the current climate but over time it could bring soem major income into the valley and Scotland. Will be interesting to see where the chair lift will drop you off as Apparently its to be situated near the bottom of Flat White with a new clubhouse for the golf course. Also makes you think will old skool punters who want to jusr slug their way up the climbs have to pay.
The trails already in place are excellent and a couple have popped up recently just making the place better and better. If its to get a chairlift I'd imagine it will need a couple of blue type flow trails as historically the easiest trail flat white trail is in bits and can be a handful at speed whith the shale and loose boulders.
Bring It on...
I keep saying over and over again that all uplift trail centres need multiple options at all levels to allow trails to be closed for maintenance. Whistler has this. Nowhere in Scotland does, but there is nowhere remotely on the scale of Whistler. Arguably our trails will suffer more as they will be all weather and all year use. If there are 5 or 6 blue trails and one is closed, a "blue" rider can still go and have a great day, and if there is an option to mainly blue with a wee bit of red, all the better as as the rider progresses, they have plenty of options.
Any sustainable and financially viable centre needs to offer variety and progression if it is to attract return visits from a wide range rider abilities and remain accessible for those new to the sport to allow them to progress. There needs to be trails to accommodate all riders from families with kids all the way to riders nailing Double Blacks on sight.
It would also be a good idea if there could be diversification built into the uplift plan to generate income from non bike related activities.
I really hope that this is successful.
What is glossed over in the press release, is the entire project is dependant on gaining 'significant' private funding. A key principle of the Borderland funding is projects have to be commercially viable, and include private investment. It's not simply grant funding awarded on the basis it might bring some money into the area (aka the initial 7 Stanes funding), it's got to be backed up by a valid business case.
As for those thinking the existing trails will remain as they are, they won't. If you add in a chairlift, the existing trails will be destroyed within months (some probably within weeks!), as natural trails quite simply cannot handle the traffic.
There is a reason trails like at Glentress are built using hardcore, and Whistler even paves some of their trails, and they don't even suffer from the same level of wet weather riding as the Tweed Valley does.
I would comment on the whole MTBCoE/DMBinS setup, but I'll refrain and just say, quango. However @BigJim 's post did make me laugh 🙂
And for the record, I know this post sounds negative, but I would really like to see a mechanical uplift in the Tweed Valley. I'm just not under any illusion that it won't involve a major change to the trails on whatever hill one gets built.
I’m just not under any illusion that it won’t involve a major change to the trails on whatever hill one gets built.
This 100%. It would be best to start with a totally blank canvas. It needs planned from the micro level up. Hazard mitigation. Safe intersections. Vehicle access. Casualty extraction. You can't just plonk a chairlift on a hill.
19million to spend on getting it going...how much to maintain it on-going...
It all sounds great, just feels like the wrong place as the only place it will help is Tweed Valley. Plenty other places that could do with this kind of development and help.
^ To be fair MC If anyone would be in the know I'd guess you would have a better info than most. Im guessing the significant investment comes from the likes of big bike brands (like Trek with nevis). You would think maybe the Hub could have companies like Endura etc having units.
Does BPW have major sponsorship as I've never been .
As Troutwrestler said some non biking activities could be added , Apart this freak winter you couldn't Ski or Snowboard there. Maybe Zipwires or go Ape type stuff. Always amazes me how the Scottish Ski resorts have been so half arsed about biking. Nevis has finally added a blue , Glencoe has a harder Black than fort bill but a weaker red than Top chief. Cairngorm nothing , Glenshee nothing , Lecht trialled a half arsed trail years ago.
TBH if the economic benefits quoted are even remotely realistic then spending £19m is a no brainer (who knows if they really are, these things generally seem to be just pulled out of an arse) but as MC says the model is that it's not enough just for a project to make a huge amount for the area, it also has to be individually viable without ongoing funding. Which is entirely stupid, but there you go.
The significant funding is well beyond anything a bike company is likely to invest.
To give an idea of initial investment, IIRC the estimated cost of a chairlift at Traquair was over £10million, and that price tag certainly won't have gone down, and that was over 15 years ago.
(For those around long enough the chairlift figures pre-dated AIMUp, and were part of a FCS feasibility study. AIMUp did consider a chairlift, but it wasn't purely for financial reasons they never pursued it).
Private investors will be the true test of the business case used to secure the borderland funding.
I did have a good chat with somebody who looked at the figures mentioned when the idea was first raised, and they were very sceptical that they could ever be reached. From what I remember, they were based on an average of over 500 riders per day, every day.
You could potentially get a couple thousand per day at weekends during summer, and possibly hit the 500 target during school holidays, but in the depths of winter?
The problem is, it's not that big a hill, so there is limited scope for long trails to spread riders out. If you do get a couple thousand riders, you're going to have some big lift queues (not really that big an issue in good weather as long as you make sure every seat is filled), but trail maintenance is going to need a lot of ongoing money.
IIRC BPW has 6 or 7 full time trail guys. They do have far more trails, but they also have far less riders than what a chairlift would bring, which gives you an idea of the kind of costs involved.
Bear in mind if you can cut and lay 35 miles of new railway from Edinburgh to Tweedbank which includes buying back land and nigh on 10 years of work at 350 million I cant see how stringing up a cable car or gondola over 1300 ft can cost 10 million , this seems mind blowing.
What did the Nevis range cost any idea.? It goes 3 times higher.
I thought the 19 million was all earmarked for buildings and building trails
As for a chairlift. Unless its government money its not going to happen. costs are too high and visitor numbers too low
You could be right Teej, hopefully not . Didn't the peel cost something ridiculous like 8 million for a shit cafe and overpriced bike shop , decent bogs and shower and a sinister building up the top that no one know what the F@c* Is for. They also must have spent a fortune two years later sorting the drains which stunk of shite for ages.
Re chairlifts I just don't think it makes any sense, just build a better road, one that doesn't go most of the way to walkerburn before it's gone up 10 feet. We could really push the boat out and make it go to the top of the hill, that'd put it in a real minority, UK uplifts that start at the bottom and end at the top.
@Northwind , you could be right decent road till the shit climb to the reservoir and beyond. Failing that carry on past the bottom of NYNY and the deid Lone wolf then switch backs and new trails from the top . If anyone has ridden either careless whisper or jailbreak at Gt recently they will have seen how the forestry can carve a fire road in a matter of weeks. Certainly wouldnt cost much money. Im knocking 50 so Id personally just buy an Ebike but most of my mates and son would pay a whistler style pass to ride laps of the golfie.