[Closed] Indoor training for mtb

Try TrainerRoad. They have MTB specific plans and if you use erg mode the fact you are using a MTB doesn’t matter as the trainer controls the speed. I think they do a first month money back guarantee. You will need your own entertainment though as sitting staring at blue bars might not be exciting!

Elaborate "utter disaster".

Because I struggle to see how... 🤨

Do you mean you can't fit the MTB to the trainer? That's not a zwift issue.

Spill....

DrP

Edit...
You'll NOT improve riding skills on a turbo. You will improve fitness. Zwift, TR, and the others will have plans that aim to improve fitness and strength. I like zwift and it's interface. Others don't. That's not really a disaster, more a preference.

Gearing too low? Any training plan will be fine on erg mode (including Zwift) but you can struggle with spinning out on an MTB in the free-ride mode.

Bigger chainring / smaller cassette may help if you can fit either/both on.

For a training plan where I hope for maximum benefit from the tedious turbo time I’m liking SYSTM (was Sufferfest now owned by Wahoo). If I can stick at it plus the yoga and strength stuff for three months I expect to feel the benefit

Is anybody successfully using an mtb on an indoor trainer

Ride in Zwift and you will run out of gears on an MTB but that will not be the case following a workout in Zwift or on other apps.  ERG mode makes gears pretty much redundant

The bike on the trainer isn't that relevant. Put the MTB in its highest gear then pedal. Riding up the Alpe du zwift compared to riding up the Alpe du huez in real life is different. In real life you will probably use the 2 lowest gears on your bike and in the virtual world you might end up riding up it in the big ring with the occasional gear change depending on the resistance that your trainer is able to apply. Time to the finish line might be similar tho.

@robbo1234biking

Thanks, I haven’t looked at that app. I’ll have a look now. If it’s just blue bars and not very interactive then it’s possibly not for me. I really liked that other people where “there” on Zwift.

Probably would be good to know what you didn't like about Zwift?

Obviously not everything's bike-shaped, weights, flexibility stuff, squats etc can all be really useful. Especially if you feel there's a hole in your bike fitness- arm tiredness being the classic.

I've been having some fun with my Praep bars-thing. It's not doing anything you can't get in other ways, but I like the app part of it and it basically helps motivate me to do something that I probably wouldn't do otherwise. That's not a recommendation exactly but maybe a decent example of how it can be unintuitive and sometimes a bit stupid. A mate of mine swears by his wii fit for the exact same reason.

Genuinely interested in why it was an utter disaster.

I also picked up a kickr to use with my MTB and while it took some tweaking the trainer difficulty I find it very good.

Lots of zwift riders pedal at way above their normal real world rpm on zwift. Easy to cruise round the virtual roads at 100+ rpm where as in the real world I certainly pedal at lower rpm than the virtual world.
That said I recently changed my approach and now average a more realistic 70-80rpm on zwift using higher gears on my road bike. Made a difference to my power output also which definably hasn't risen through a training programme or even riding my bike in the real world!

Trainer road is a very plain screen - on the iPhone at least. It’s what I use and shows you the intervals or whatever it’s going to subject you to - plus some commentary across the bottom of the screen.

If Zwift has training plans where you use ERG mode that should work. The Kickr core can provide a high wattage resistance and in erg you don’t change gear. On my road bike I’m in the front 34t chainring and one of the easiest cogs on the back - probably around a 20t or similar. It can give me enough resistance to grind me to a complete halt no problem.

@DrP

Complete disaster = I tried three days on the run and all three days I was prevented by Zwift from training using a training plan. I tried to get help from Zwift but, basically, they acknowledged the issue and that it was raised by other users back in 2019. They couldn’t confirm if it was going to be rectified so I assume it won’t be. Issue was that you can’t just start a plan when you want to. Inexplicably they set some sort of random time. Day 1 I had to wait 7 hours. Day 2 I had to wait 15 hours. Day 1 was the day I signed up to the plan. Day 2 I had to sign up to the same plan again due to issues. Day 3 I started the first ride of my plan but gave up 30 minutes in due to having a plethora of software issues from disconnecting from devices to stopping me peddling completely (ERG). Final straw was restarting the session from the beginning halfway through.

No, MTB fits to the trainer perfectly.
Sorry, don’t know what drp means?
Not trying to improve riding skills. I need a regular aerobic form of exercise to replace running as I’m no longer able to do that.
I did really like the Zwift idea of Zwift but the interface, using Apple TV, was terrible. I could have lived with it though if I was able to use the training plans.

Oh, that sounds odd. Shouldn’t be anything to do with the bike that is on the turbo though. Sounds like a Zwift software problem.

Trainer road is really easy to use - there is a bank of training sessions and you can filter by difficulty / duration / type of session (recovery / tempo / vo2 max etc) and just pick on to ride. Or you can setup a training plan and it then schedules you rides on certain days. You pick the volume of training you want to do and you can move the days round / skip days etc as you see fit.

If anything sweet spot or more intense I just stick headphones in and listen to up beat music and get my sweat on.

If it’s a recovery ride (I.e boring zone 2) I have my tablet on a stand in front of the bike and I either read a digital magazine or watch Amazon prime.

Are you sure you didn't try starting a training plan mid week?
They ALL start on a Monday! No way to start earlier.

You can do individual workouts at any time... but a proper plan starts on a monday...

DrP

@stumpymark. You can just select the workouts you want and do them whenever.

You can also change the trainer difficulty to a lower percentage, this will mean less gear changes are needed as the uphill and downhill gradients are less. At 0% you'd be in the same gear on a 5% incline and a 5% decline, I think.

As above all training plans start on Monday regardless of when you enroll, with enforced times before you can do the next workout.

If you can get it sorted, zwift is bloody fantastic. I'm in week 4 of 6 of the dirt destroyer plan and enjoying it, and most importantly it's giving me a schedule to ride to - this week I know I have 2x more workouts to complete, and if I want to get a real ride in at the weekend I need to do them tonight and tomorrow.

Rest days are important for zwift training, they make it take longer to complete the training programme so you end up paying more cash 🤣.
I missed a few sessions when I tried a full training programme, a bit disappointing that I couldn't do them at another point.
The longer group rides are good, a 2hr ride n chat is probably as good as a 45 minute blast in the real world getting cold and wet at this time of the year 🤔

@euain

The gears where all over the place tbh. It was telling me to spin faster but putting so much resistance on that I could barely pedal at all. Then it would go the other way so no resistance at all and cadence was through the roof but Zwift bike was barely moving.

My worry now is that I have no trust that, during a 6 week training plan, it’s going to ruin most of the rides and possibly restart an entire training plan before I’ve completed it. Again, zero help from Zwift. It does seem like a product that’s been released before it was ready.

@seriousrikk Please can you let me know your settings in case I decide to give it another go.

@stumpymark
When in a training session you travel at your own pace compared to everyone else and the terrain. You'll notice other people with a 'screen' in front of them, they're on workouts. Sometimes you see people flying up hills that you're grinding up.

It really is a different experience in the training / workout mode, it takes longer to level up. At first I only used the individual workouts as I couldn't commit to the training plans.

I always make sure it's updated before I ride and I got a ANT+ USB dongle which is 99.9% stable

I have a direct drive trainer with a road bike on it which I am using for MTB fitness, I dont use zwift instead controlling the resistance via the app on my phone.

I will typically try and do 3 sessions on it a week, first one being intervals 30 on then 30 rest x 10 works well, Ill do it several times and mix up being seated or stood.

Second session I'll just sit on it and pedal easy super zone 1 for power or heart rate with a cadence of 80 plus.

Third session I will try to do seated hard pedalling to replicate steep climbs, I'll start in the lowest resistance and every 30 seconds add a level until I either cant turn the pedals anymore or max out the resistance, I'll then remove a level every 30 seconds till I am back at easy, I'll do this several times in a session too with some easy pedalling for 5-10mins between to let the legs semi recover.

This is working well for me so far with some weight loss and improved bike fitness. When it stops working I would then look at one of the apps with plans in it

So I’m watching a YouTube idle of a guy showing Zwifts “onboarding tutorial”. I didn’t get this and if I had it would’ve answered a lot of questions. I’ve got about 10 minutes left. He’s using the gears of his bike and is under the impression ERG mode will kick in soon. I’m guessing that’s when you don’t need to use the gears?

I’ve used both Zwift and TrainerRoad. I think both are great but TR is way better for me. Excellent training plans sorted out for you using Plan Builder. Adaptive training means that you always get the right workout. Last year it took my FTP from 301W to 369W in five months or so.

I found Zwift fun but I’m not into the racing aspect and the training programmes weren’t as good. Better if you just want to spin the legs though.

I’d give TrainerRoad a shot. Plenty of MTB specific programmes on there.

So I’m watching a YouTube idle of a guy showing Zwifts “onboarding tutorial”. I didn’t get this and if I had it would’ve answered a lot of questions. I’ve got about 10 minutes left. He’s using the gears of his bike and is under the impression ERG mode will kick in soon. I’m guessing that’s when you don’t need to use the gears?

Yep, erg mode is normally seen when doing workouts.

I've literally just stepped off the trainer from a workout 100% in erg mode, the trainer will adjust the resistance to allow you to put out the watts the workout is asking for at that time. If you're doing a workout which has a target cadence, you just ride at the cadence and the trainer will adjust the resistance to the correct power. If you up the cadence, the trainer will adjust after a few seconds, it's always trying too keep you at the power zwift is asking you to output.

So, unless you have some 10s intervals, you can stay in one gear all workout and just adjust your effort and or cadence.

Sim mode is where it bases the riding on the zwift road elevation.

I never got on with the Zwift training plans and outside of racing I didn't really use it.

I do like sufferfest/wahoo systm though, they have a MTB focussed plan available and you can schedule the start whenever you like or shift sessions around to suit (I tend to move the high intensity sessions depending on what I'm doing in the gym on any given day)

stumpymark

The gears where all over the place tbh. It was telling me to spin faster but putting so much resistance on that I could barely pedal at all. Then it would go the other way so no resistance at all and cadence was through the roof but Zwift bike was barely moving.

My worry now is that I have no trust that, during a 6 week training plan, it’s going to ruin most of the rides and possibly restart an entire training plan before I’ve completed it. Again, zero help from Zwift. It does seem like a product that’s been released before it was ready.

With all due respect, it sounds like you have a misunderstanding of what Zwift and the trainer is doing, which is causing problems.

First of all, the workout structure is pretty strict and yeah it might not be ideal for how you want to train. If that is the case, just choose the workouts on the day you want to do them and make your own plan, rather than using one of Zwifts.

If you do a free ride or a race, Zwift will control the trainer resistance to simulate the gradients. It doesn't care how hard you are pedaling, it just matches the terrain. You change gear to adapt to the hills etc as you would on a normal ride.

If you do a workout, Zwift will set the trainer resistance to try and maintain the required power output for that interval. Obviously the faster you pedal, the lower the resistance and vice versa.
You should put the bike in a relatively easy gear and leave it at that. Let the trainer adjust resistance and don't twiddle with the gears. I use a road bike and keep the gears on 34 front and halfway up the block at the rear for workouts.
If you constantly change gears, you are effectively fighting the trainer's attempts to maintain power and will get the effect you had.

Have a play around with it. Learn how it works before giving up. Do some free rides and do some workouts; not to a plan, just choose a few workouts and try them.
How did you set your FTP for the workouts you were doing? Did you do an FTP test? Ramp test?

With all due respect, it sounds like you have a misunderstanding of what Zwift and the trainer is doing, which is causing problems.

I’ll second that.
YOU leave the bike in ONE gear during a workout. ZWIFT changes the RESISTANCE (to meet WATTAGE) according the to the plan.

DrP

Try this

https://www.spintertainment.com/

Wow Zwift training plans sound super strict and inflexible. Trainer road has this newer adaptive training thing - based on how you found the last workout it can suggest different options that may work better for you. Last year when I did a plan it didn’t have this and worked ok. I’m preferring the adaptive thing as it seems to be spot on this year - hoping to give my ftp a bit of a bump up.

That said it sounds like you’re doing something odd during the training sessions - lots of people use Zwift so I don’t believe it could be that bad. It sounds like you’re confusing the ERG functionality by changing gear when you shouldn’t.

Erg knows the power it wants you to hit - it’s cadence x resistance kind of. The faster you spin the less resistance it needs to hit the watts.

Okay, so I did two circuits of Central Park on Zwift but armed with more information which has made a huge difference. Not sure why I didn’t get the onboarding tour of Zwift that I should have.

The two bits of information that helped the most was the gradient in the map and not changing gears. I also adjusted the difficulty down from 100% to 50% and then back up to 75%.

I’m guessing the points I felt that I couldn’t pedal I was on a steep gradient and vice versa.

I might see out there rest of the 7 day trial on Zwift and then check out a couple of the others that have been suggested. Probably Wahoo Systm and one other.

At least tonight I managed to get a full hours workout so I’m happy with that.

@dickyhepburn That looks interesting. Will be looking into this. Thanks.

For me the point of zwift is the social aspects and the "racing". As trainers have improved it gets closer and closer to the real world. People can get big improvements from doing this but....

If you are really time crunched or looking for maximum gains then something like TrainerRoad or SYSTM is likely better. The program controls the resistance and all you have to do is survive.... But it's following a dot on a screen and it depends if that's your bag or not....

Having tried both I'm a TR user. Both will improve fitness; they're different; choice is a good thing.

I like RGT much more than Zwift, but I don't do training plans. I think you can combine training peaks and RGT some how.

Racing in RGT is much better imo, it slows you for corners and you can't just blast through a bunch

Buy some lights and go for a ride?

The two bits of information that helped the most was the gradient in the map and not changing gears. I also adjusted the difficulty down from 100% to 50% and then back up to 75%.

There's two modes to Zwift - first is simulation, which is what you get if you aren't doing a training plan - you are riding round on the map and it's not telling you to maintain a power or whatever. For this mode, it's 'pretend' outdoors riding, so you should be changing gears as the gradient dictates just the same as you would outdoors - Zwift increases the difficulty on your trainer to mimic the terrain / incline % shown on the screen and it's up to you to pedal harder / change gear / stand up and sprint just the same as outdoors. The Trainer Difficulty session controls how much it adjusts the difficulty so that it feels reasonably 'natural' - I'd leave it somewhere in the middle as a starter.

Second is ERG mode, which is used in the structured training sessions. The training plan will tell you to ride at (eg.) 200W power output. You pedal at a reasonable cadence (or a specific one if Zwift asks you to), and it will adjust the resistance up/down on the trainer for you until you are outputting close to this power. You don't need to touch the bike gears for this mode at all, it's all done by Zwift and the trainer.

One situation you can run into in ERG mode is the 'spiral of death' - typically if you are riding at a low cadence and it wants you to output more power, then all of a sudden the trainer difficulty goes up, but because you aren't spinning your legs you can't press the pedals hard enough, or the extra resistance causes your cadence to slow. The trainer sees that you aren't meeting the power target, so decides that the solution is to add more resistance to help you get there, so your pedaling basically grinds to a halt. If this happens, stop pedaling for a few seconds and it should sort itself out. The solution to this is to be prepared for any changes of power requirement and keep an eye on the countdown so you aren't caught unawares 🙂

intheborders

Buy some lights and go for a ride?

Phew! Problem Solved.

I’m guessing the points I felt that I couldn’t pedal I was on a steep gradient and vice versa.

erm... if the trainer is in ERG (i,e you're doing a workout) then the gradient doesn't affect anything you feel (it'll make your avatar rise slower uphill)... you won't feel teh gradient.
you simply make watts.

DrP

The gears where all over the place tbh. It was telling me to spin faster but putting so much resistance on that I could barely pedal at all.

Yeah sounds like ERG mode which should be called 'urgh' mode or sadistic bastard mode. Getting tired? Let me up the resistance for you!

It's the default in workouts but avoid it, it's not really necessary and I think deeply unhelpful. If you can't quite make 200W during your interval it makes sense to drop to 195 or whatever and press on, other than be forced to abandon the workout which is what ERG mode will force you to do.

he solution to this is to be prepared for any changes of power requirement and keep an eye on the countdown so you aren’t caught unawares

Or just change it out of ERG mode, which you can do.

molgrips

Yeah sounds like ERG mode which should be called ‘urgh’ mode or sadistic bastard mode. Getting tired? Let me up the resistance for you!

It’s the default in workouts but avoid it, it’s not really necessary and I think deeply unhelpful. If you can’t quite make 200W during your interval it makes sense to drop to 195 or whatever and press on, other than be forced to abandon the workout which is what ERG mode will force you to do.

I don't agree with this.
While ERG mode does force you to maintain power output and does make it hard work, I would stick with it rather than switching out of ERG and adjusting the gears to maintain a specific power. This can be very hard to do during a workout, while ERG mode means all the adjusting is done for you.

In Zwift you have the option during a workout of adjusting the effort by 10% up and down. So if you find 200w too hard you can reduce the effort by 20w if need be. You can adjust this up and down however you want throughout the workout.
If you still struggle, then you probably need to check your ftp value again, or choose workouts that are shorter/have a lower stress level until you get used to it.
Zwift call this bias and the easiest way to adjust it is using the up and down arrows in the blue button controls on the companion app map screen.

Yah, I'd echo the above from @stumpy01 ....
ERG works well to MAKE you maintain a power level, regardless of cadence.
I've had workouts where i've had to skip an interval as it's too hard, or scrap it (by dropping power OUT of the ERG range, which turns off ERG) then resting, and rejoining ERG again in the next interval.

My trainer (tacx neo 2t) is bang on and stable with the wattage... i'd be fluctuating all over the shop if it was simply controleld with gears.

YMMV

DrP

I like erg- gives you less to worry about. Struggling - try and up the pedal speed and it makes it easier. Higher speed means more use of your cardio system / makes you heart work harder. Lower speed switches the work more on your legs and more likely to tire you out.

Trainer road has an easy option on screen to turn the resistance levels up or down by % if you’re struggling or finding it too easy.

I just had a quick 45 min sweet spot training session at lunchtime that absolutely kicked my arse - 4x8 minute spin ups. I hate these longer duration efforts!

Cant be bothered to read all the replies but if you want to freeride in Zwift you can toggle the default slope intensite setting (or whatever they call it) from 50% up to 100%, then your low grears will come into their own. Racing is still likely to be suboptimal on most courses.

You can also explore other apps. TR has mtb specific plans as others have said and you would use erg mode which negates your low gearing issue. Fulgaz might suit you. Realistic real world rides. The default freeride hill setting in Fulgaz is 100%, so it feels more realistic/ very hard from the off and your low gears will work well.

Wahoo's training platform Systm has MTB specific training plans, you should have a free trial code with your Kickr purchase. Wahoo's customer service is excellent. I find it much easier to stick to the workouts on my plan than in Zwift wherw I lasted where I lasted about 5 minutes, guess Zwift
is ok if you like MarioKart.

I tend to use Zwift in the 'free ride' option - ie no training plan/workout. I think you need to get used to that, then try some work outs. As others have said, on workouts you are using a set gear - you'll need to fine one that you can match the required cadence and power output, then you stick with it through the 'ride' - the trainer will be responding to the plan and not the terrain in this mode. If you start fiddling with gears it goes wrong as you can't maintain the required watts or cadence.

I'm on a more basic trainer but I'm swapping out a road bike and a hybrid for the Mrs. Just needs a couple of turns on the roller adjuster to accommodate the Mrs bike.

You may need to check whether the cassette is suitable - are you running singlespeed, as a MTB cassette will give you far too big jumps between gears, so you may want a smaller cassette - that said, you may struggle with a road cassette on hills.

The week's trial isn't a great length to get used to it, but it's only £12.99 for a month and you can cancel if if you don't like it.

Thanks again for all replies to this. I’ve completed another 2 rides and understanding it more now and enjoying it too.

I think missing the onboarding ride was my downfall.

Cool! Good news you're getting on with it better now.

There's plenty of Zwift chat on the forum, so lots going on.