[Closed] In Praise of Sustrans and Traffic-Free Cycle Paths (photos)

Thanks for that I now really want to go for a nice spin out on the bike & I'm stuck at work 🙁

Looks like a very nice ride 🙂

A few people questioned whether such magical things can exist in the UK

I didn't. I questioned whether we had the space to install a useful network of such things. We might do, we might have the means to purchase the land, I don't know.

And I said that separate highways such as the top one in your pics are great.

FWIW I know a few places like the bottom pics up there, and they have pedestrians wandering all over them so you can't get any kind of speed up.

Also, in Cardiff there is a traffic free route from the city centre out to the nearest woodland for some decent trails. I don't use it, I take the road cos it's quicker, and better exercise.

Why would I ride on the road here (even though it has cycle lanes)?

The new A48 through Newport has wide cyclepaths like that one going all the way through it. I don't use it apart from one stretch because it's constantly interrupted with side roads and for roundabouts you have to turn off every exit and negotiate a little crossing. Again, fine for pootling, not if you want to get somewhere quickly.

I don't have anything to add to molgrips's response.

The cycle/pedestrian toute along the quays is a brilliant setup. Now going take some pics of it at lunch time in the sun.

Actually, I'd qualify the comment about separate highways. They do perhaps need a bit of structure. We went on Bristol-Bath in the summer a while back, and it was pretty busy. Fair enough, but there were fast commuters ripping along on road bikes weaving in and out of the grannies and kids tootling along really quite recklessly.

I must say that despite being traffic free, I didn't feel particuarly safe. Ok so the roadies were going very fast, but no-one else had any kind of discipline; they were scattered all over the place, stopping to chat and drink wherever they were, even if that meant blocking the trail.

Oh yeah, what time of day are those pics taken?

There's still plenty of Dr Beeching's wasted tracks kicking around that could be used

but no-one else had any kind of discipline; they were scattered all over the place,

are you German? 😉

I don't use it apart from one stretch because it's constantly interrupted with side roads and for roundabouts you have to turn off every exit and negotiate a little crossing. Again, fine for pootling, not if you want to get somewhere quickly.

As I said (and got told off for) on one of the other threads - my average speed on my commute is ~15mph. I'm on a MTB-turned-commuter and not fast or fit, but I'm not just pootling either.

On the road in that photo ([url= http://goo.gl/maps/k5Zx9 ]Scotswood Road[/url]) you have the choice of on-road cycle lane or off-road shared-use pavement.

Riding on the pavement means I cross the road 3 times (at Toucan crossings) and have to cross two quiet side roads.

Riding on the road I'd face 3 major roundabouts and [b]12[/b] sets of traffic lights.

The road really isn't any faster - I've passed roadies scowling away at the lights while I bimble past on the pavement.

I thought the argument was along the lines of "facilities are poor so no one cycles". So where are all the other cyclists on this great infrastructure?

watch out for tacks at Wylam though...
😉

Scotswood road with a tailwind is a dragstrip :-).
Wide shared-use path on both sides, and marked bike lanes on the road. Brill

Oh yeah, what time of day are those pics taken?

This morning between 8:30 and 9:20am

I use the sustrans route 6 from Ramsbottom to Salford and back for my commute which is great. Takes about 10 minutes longer than by road, follows a canal and through the woods with short road sections joining it.

BUT - there is about 400yards which is unpaved and like a bog, I can do the whole 17 miles without getting muddy apart from this short section which is a bit annoying so I tend to use the road route in to work and the sustrans route home. How much would it cost to improve the surface on a short section like that..

I thought the argument was along the lines of "facilities are poor so no one cycles". So where are all the other cyclists on this great infrastructure?

Actually the argument is more like [i]"build it and they will come"[/i]. 😀

That route is well used by cycling commuters and families.

There are a few cyclists in the shots, but I don't typically like taking pictures of strangers, especially with their kids.

High quality paths like the ones Graham uses are great, but it's completely unrealistic to expect them to appear all over the UK. In Bristol, with the exception of the railway path, I find them to be fairly useless - poorly surfaced, littered with obstacles and junctions, and rarely going where you want.

I can do the whole 17 miles without getting muddy apart from this short section which is a bit annoying so I tend to use the road route in to work and the sustrans route home. How much would it cost to improve the surface on a short section like that..

Have you spoken to local Sustrans or the council about it?

After the recent heavy rain the council sent a mini-streetsweeper thing along that bit in the Sepia photo to clear all the flooding and clean the path!

Local cycling groups FTW: http://www.gatesheadcycling.org.uk/

one of biggest failings of the Beeching plan was not protecting the decommissioned routes from development. 5000 miles of line with next to no gradient lost (some has survived) under the plough or to development.

How much would it cost to improve the surface on a short section like that..

quite a bit, probably... and there may well also be issues over land ownership etc - there are a surprising number of different land owners along the NCN.

Sustrans' money is generally tied to specific projects - i.e. they'll be given £x million to build a new path. funding for a 400m stretch is going to be difficult to come by, tbh.

if you use the NCN a lot, then why not think about supporting sustrans. costs less than 2 pints a month...

Ironically the start of that route is somewhat pre-Beeching, given they were lines used by [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Stephenson ]Wylam's most/only famous resident[/url]. 😀

I use bits of that network to get to work everyday.

It is not normally that empty. Try coming over the bridge on a sunny friday afternoon and avoiding all the drinkers at the Pitcher and Piano.
At about 8am and 5pm each day there will be plenty of cyclsits out. But bear in mind that there just aren't as many people up here as down there.

Still Newcastle has some fantastic offroad cycle paths (mostly the waggon ways and the c2c routes).

High quality paths like the ones Graham uses are great, but it's completely unrealistic to expect them to appear all over the UK.

It really isn't. There is a lot of land out there.

Plenty of old railway lines, old track road, wasteground, disused bridleways etc that could be turned into paths like those in the first photos. And plenty of roads that could accommodate decent sized paths next to them (shared-use or not) like those in the final few photos.

It's not impossible. What it needs is political will and money.

As [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_David_Hewson ]somebody called Paul[/url] once said: [i]"Dream up the world you want to live in. Dream out loud."[/i] 😉

It is not normally that empty. Try coming over the bridge on a sunny friday afternoon and avoiding all the drinkers at the Pitcher and Piano.

Yep. True. Same at the Quayside Inn.

But that's two short points where I need to slow right down.
And only on sunny days. I didn't see many of them out in January!

If you hit the A1 at that same time you'd probably be stuck for longer.
I've certainly beaten the missus home before now.

[quote=GrahamS ]
I've certainly beaten the missus at home before now.
😯

Well, you know how they get druidh. 😀

Monkey - I did volunteer for the local sustrans group and did a few days maintenance with them which was good. They were a bit surprised when I turned up with all my chainsaw gear! Unfortunately a lot of the maintenance days are either a fair distance from where I live and time is in short supply at weekends with my two young un's!

GrahamS, I think it would take more than a road sweeper! It's 4" deep mud and horse muck in places 😆

I'm from Morecambe and the cycle routes there are fantastic now especially since the new coast to coast route was completed. Taking my wife and kids there in a few weeks to have a day riding along the prom and up to Halton for an ice cream without have to use any roads - more like this sustrans please!

Plenty of old railway lines, old track road, wasteground, disused bridleways etc that could be turned into paths like those in the first photos. And plenty of roads that could accommodate decent sized paths next to them (shared-use or not) like those in the final few photos.

Not within cities, there aren't, which is where we really need them. And re-engineering the city streetscape to accommodate wide segregated cycle paths would be hideous.

if you use the NCN a lot, then why not think about supporting sustrans. costs less than 2 pints a month...

Fair point. Just the push I've needed actually. Just signed up to donate via direct debit.
http://www.sustrans.org.uk/support-sustrans/become-a-supporter

So... now that I can take the moral high ground... [b]how many folk on here saying things will never change and complaining about useless local routes have actually joined Sustrans, or CTC, or their local cycling advocacy groups to try to do something about it?[/b] Eh? 😉

GrahamS, I think it would take more than a road sweeper! It's 4" deep mud and horse muck in places

Oooh lovely! Well you never know, the council here did pretty well (with suitable pressure) at clearing out some of our routes after the big storms the other month. Maybe you should suggest a Sustrans maintenance day on that stretch?

Not within cities, there aren't, which is where we really need them. And re-engineering the city streetscape to accommodate wide segregated cycle paths would be hideous.

I like this set of photos:
http://www.hembrowcyclingholidays.com/comparisons.html

It [i]can[/i] be done. It wouldn't be easy. Granted. But it [i]can[/i] be done.

Just needs political will and money.

GrahamS - you keep posting a link to that one site. If it was possible on a mass scale, there would be a lot more examples.

Just needs political will and money.

It would be very difficult in a lot of cities, river banks are ideal, inner city arterial routes often aren't

a lot could be done closing 'rat runs' to allow a reasonable cycle route without going too far off route

Sustrans are apparently eyeing up the old railway bed through Nidderdale, that would be a fantastic route, and also allow easy linking up of trail sections in the lower valley. Sadly their recent 4 mile section from Bilton to Ripley took something like 4 yrs to get approved. Progress on these things is far too slow...

It can be done. It wouldn't be easy. Granted. But it can be done.

But should it be done?

As a general point, I think people get rather pre-occupied with segregated facilities, as if they're some sort of panacea. They forget that we already tried segregation in Milton Keynes, and no-one cycles there. By contrast, cycling rates in Oxford and Cambridge are very high, with everyone sharing the same narrow roads. The notion that "build it and they will come" is demonstrably false.

It's worth noting that the oft-quoted Dutch model is about so much more than segregation. More important are the ideas of cultural acceptance, policing, motorist liability and sensibly designed junctions.

If you still need convincing, take a typical London street and try drawing a plan for a wide cycle path. What will you take the space away from?

GrahamS - you keep posting a link to that one site. If it was possible on a mass scale, there would be a lot more examples.

Photos comparing British streets to near identical Dutch streets is kind of a niche market.

The Hembrow / aviewfromthecyclepath.com sites are great because he is British (I believe) and lived here before moving out there - so he can speak with experience. Plus he runs study holidays so road planners and cycle advocates can come out and see how well the cycle paths work there - so he knows what he is talking about.

and moving folk out of their houses to widen streets,

The streets don't need to be wider - we just need to dedicate less of them to cars.

Dutch streets are not wider or newer. The main town in his photos is Assen, which is over 750 years old. It's not some new build with mega wide streets.

give up other stuff (NHS anyone) in order to make it affordable, higher taxes to pay for it etc etc

Money needs to be [s]spent[/s] invested, yes. Right now government spending on UK cycling provision is only around 70p per cyclist per year. The Dutch spend £10-20 per cyclist - and they have a lot more of them!

LSE say that [url= http://www2.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/news/archives/2011/08/cycling.aspx ]cycling generates around £3 billion a year for the UK economy[/url]. Increasing cycling would pay off.

The road really isn't any faster - I've passed roadies scowling away at the lights while I bimble past on the pavement.

That's nice, but it's not like that everywhere!

I take the roads and the roundabouts on the A48 becuse it's not that busy, and most people are going straight on anyway so I can be through the roundabout in two or three seconds, instead of 20 or 30 to take the cyclepath. And there are a lot of roundabouts. It's not the end of the world, and if I were with my family I'm sure I'd take them, but it's why I don't use them when I am on my own.

I do think the facility is good though for less celeritous cyclists but I would hate to receive aggro for not being on it.

we just need to dedicate less of them to cars.

So where does the traffic go?

Some stunning Sustrans routes in South Wales. These are from the Millenium Coast path from Lochor to Kidwelly. This should be on your bucket list.

[img] http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=241277&d=1343997736 [/img]
[img] http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=241276&d=1343997732 [/img]
[img] http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=241275&d=1343997725 [/img]

Hugor, that'll come in handy on people's commutes!

Whilst these routes are nice, they don't make much of an impact on UK cycling IMO. West Wales isn't exactly bedlam on the roads is it?

The streets don't need to be wider - we just need to dedicate less of them to cars.

Show us your drawing. I contend that it cannot be done in a typical city street unless you want to close the road to private cars, in which case there is no need for a cycle path!

Dutch streets are not wider or newer.

We were so impressed with the sustrans W2W, route that we actually set up a subscription to them. Then bought several more of their maps and routes for the next several years touring. We have used several of their cycle paths in Devon and Cornwall and what could have been a city battle with 2 bikes and a trailer turned into a nice ride up the estuary to Exeter. Not to mention the Bristol to Bath cycle route. If you are impressed with sustrans make a donation today so they can keep up the good work!

Whilst these routes are nice, they don't make much of an impact on UK cycling IMO. West Wales isn't exactly bedlam on the roads is it?

OK here's National Route 8 from Brecon to Cardiff 85 kms long.
You can take the A470 which is a deathtrap for cyclists or you can take this route which runs parallel to it! You wouldn't know it but.

[img] http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=241278&d=1343998492 [/img]
[img] http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=241279&d=1343998503 [/img]
[img] http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=241282&d=1343998615 [/img]

Also, in Cardiff there is a traffic free route from the city centre out to the nearest woodland for some decent trails. I don't use it, I take the road cos it's quicker, and better exercise.

Do you mean the Taff Trail? If so I use it every day from Pontypridd into the centre of Cardiff. I really don't understand your comments to be honest. The trail is tarmac'd throughout, is mainly a very good surface and almost entirely traffic free. Vast sections are fairly quiet around commute hours as far as walkers are concerned and when I do encounter them a quick ring of my bell has them moving to let me safely pass without slowing. It's only when I get into the centre of the city that I tend to get slowed down a little due to walker/cyclist congestion.

If I used the road during those hours I would be cycling with nose to nose traffic and probably have to encounter in the region of 15 to 20 sets of traffic lights. How can this be faster and better exercise when I'd be constantly slowing down for lights and edging down the side of cars and lorries?

Yep, its a great route GrahamS, and others like it like the derwent walk, waskerley way and lanchester valley route have been instrumental in getting my partner, sister in law and niece out on their bikes.

They have no interest in singletrack, hills or mixing it with the traffic but picturesque routes like these are just perfect.

There's a nice little bike cafe opened at the end of the quayside which is a really nice spot to sit and have a coffee and the route then continues all the way to tynemouth, about about 75% off-road and the rest on quiet roads.

I didn't realise you could donate to sustrans, thanks for the link.

As a general point, I think people get rather pre-occupied with segregated facilities, as if they're some sort of panacea. They forget that we already tried segregation in Milton Keynes, and no-one cycles there. By contrast, cycling rates in Oxford and Cambridge are very high, with everyone sharing the same narrow roads. The notion that "build it and they will come" is demonstrably false.

There's a great blog post discussing the failure of cycling in Milton Keynes here: http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/they-built-it-and-they-didnt-come-the-lesson-of-milton-keynes/

But in short, while it's easy to cycle there, it's even easier to drive. Not something that applies to most other cities in the UK.

Oxford and Cambridge don't have high levels of cycling 'cos the roads are narrow, it's almost certainly due to the large student populations. There's also some good segregated cycle infrastructure in Oxford.

Conversely, where's the cycling paradise that's been achieved by making cars and cyclists mix?

That's nice, but it's not like that everywhere!

True. But that's [i]because[/i] we let cars take priority and try to fit crap cycle paths around the roads as an after-thought. It doesn't have to be that way.

Show us your drawing. I contend that it cannot be done in a typical city street

Did you look at the photos in the [url= http://www.hembrowcyclingholidays.com/comparisons.html ]link[/url]? They illustrate much better than any cack-handed scribble I could produce.

So where does the traffic go?

Lots of options. Most roads are pretty wide given they have one lane each direction. Take some from that. Not all roads need to run both ways for cars. Not all roads need parking on both sides.

Most importantly, everywhere does [i]not[/i] need to be accessible by car. City Centres should be living spaces for people. Cars can visit, slowly, we shouldn't expect it to be a thoroughfare.

Read some of the Hembrow posts here: http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/search/label/notenoughspace

Whilst these routes are nice, they don't make much of an impact on UK cycling IMO.

I'll be taking my wife down to the Quayside on Sunday for the [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/geordies-psa-free-bike-jumble-sale-at-the-cycle-hub-sunday-5th-august-2012 ]Cycle Hub Jumble Sale[/url]. We'll be towing the little one in a trailer or maybe on a child seat. There is absolutely no way in hell that I could persuade the missus to ride down the dual-carriageway instead (not that I would try) but she's happy to ride it on that route - so that is two adults and a child cycling this weekend who would otherwise be taking the car.

There's a nice little bike cafe opened at the end of the quayside which is a really nice spot to sit and have a coffee

Yep, that'll be [url= http://www.thecyclehub.org/ ]The Cycle Hub[/url]

[img] [/img]

This was my cycle route home yesterday evening from Llandough to Cardiff Bay where I live on National Route 8.

[img] http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=241283&d=1343999712 [/img]

the sustrans route to the south of Glasgow (basically from about Paisley to Kilbirnie (about 20 miles) going past Lochwinnoch or over to Port Glasgow (about 15 miles) is really good. Connects up various towns / villages with each other in a direct way and virtually all off road and it is good quality tarmac in much better state than the roads and is very popular as a result.

Yep, its a great route GrahamS, and others like it like the derwent walk, waskerley way and lanchester valley route have been [b]instrumental in getting my partner, sister in law and niece out on their bikes[/b].

There you go. There's 3 more.

If we want more people cycling, and we do, then we [i]must[/i] provide these kinds of routes.

No amount of white paint and green tarmac will make a dual carriageway safe for a four year old.

OK here's National Route 8 from Brecon to Cardiff 85 kms long.
You can take the A470 which is a deathtrap for cyclists or you can take this route which runs parallel to it!

Or you can take many other routes (from Merthyr at least) down to Cardiff, not just the A470! And how long did it take you do get from Brecon to Cardiff on the Taff trail?

And since when is Brecon-Cardiff a common cycle commute?

Do you mean the Taff Trail?

Yes, and I am talking specifically about the bit between town and Castell Coch, that I used to use. Mostly on weekends, when it was crowded. Although I still think I'd go along the A4054 anyway even if I was going all the way to Ponty.

I've never done it at rush hour mind, North Road in Cardiff is pretty busy then for sure.

Oxford and Cambridge don't have high levels of cycling 'cos the roads are narrow, it's almost certainly due to the large student populations. There's also some good segregated cycle infrastructure in Oxford.

No. Cycling levels in Cambridge are around 30% excluding students.

Conversely, where's the cycling paradise that's been achieved by making cars and cyclists mix?

so that is two adults and a child cycling this weekend who would otherwise be taking the car

Oh, well if it works for sunday pootles then that's problem solved eh?

Most roads are pretty wide

Where tf do you life? 😯

Look I'm not saying cycle facilities are not good in some situations. Read back, I've praised many. But they can also be a liability, and I don't want to be forced to use them otherwise all my rides will end up being Sunday pootles. I do not want that.

The point is that shared space is not a barrier to high rates of cycling.

As observed in Bristol, by me.

And how long did it take you do get from Brecon to Cardiff on the Taff trail?

About 4 hours but I was stopping to take pictures every 5 minutes cause it was so beautiful! 😀

I regularly do the Taff Trail between Cardiff Bay and Castle Coch - pretty busy particularly in rush hour.

Most roadside cycle lanes in Cardiff however are used as street parking. Really shits me! 👿

I just got off the phone from talking to the local rag about the Bristol-Bath Path and I really feel I should have gushed about it more. It's up there with the suspension bridge and Ashton Court as one of the ace things about Bristol. What's particularly fantastic is that it started as a grass-roots volunteer initiative, with the local cycle campaigners literally building it by hand.

[img] [/img]

Sustrans don't seem to do that many big infrastructure projects any more, but the Two Tunnels route in Bath is going to be ace when it opens later this year. There should also be a new route coming soon which will upgrade and join up the River Avon Trail from Keynsham to Bristol. Much nicer than mixing it up on the A4 through Brislington or trying to get your bike onto a poxy local train.

No. Cycling levels in Cambridge are around 30% excluding students.

Yes, but that could be argued that the students push it past critical mass, a big multi-site university in a very small town means lots of cyclists, enough to make bikes quicker than cars, which gets everyone elese out on bikes.

The point is that shared space is not a barrier to high rates of cycling.

I have absolutely no data to contradict your claim so will take it at face value but ...........

At home here, there's only me that will ride on the road with or without cycle lanes
My wife and kids love getting out on their bikes but only on the single use cycle paths

I'm fairly sure that cycling would be better served for most people [ie ones who don't currently cycle] by more dedicated paths rather than using the resource on improving commuting routes amongst other traffic.

Lots of nice greenery and semi-rural paths...

Which any large city in the UK tends to be a bit short of...

Think as well that to travel out from a city centre involves passing through various neighbourhoods on your nice secluded traffic free path.

I'd rather take my chances on the road than ride out from Manchester through the nice quiet back streets or up the nice traffic free canal, because I don't want to end up getting punched and my bike stolen.

I'm not against seperate cycling facilities, but there isn't the will or the continued investment to make them work in large parts of the urban UK.

Even the bike lanes leading to the Velodrome in Manchester are only cleaned once a year; leaving glass and rubbish filled 'cycle' paths.

No. Cycling levels in Cambridge are around 30% excluding students.

And yet despite the apparent success of mixed-mode routes in Cambridge, here is the [url= http://www.camcycle.org.uk/newsletters/103/article5.html ]Cambridge Cycle Campaign saying how great the facilities in Copenhagen are[/url] and [url= http://www.camcycle.org.uk/vision2016/city.html ]calling for complete corridors where the council "redesign the use of space to make cycling the easiest and fastest way to move along this corridor"[/url]!

Oh, well if it works for sunday pootles then that's problem solved eh?

Yep it pretty much is.

More sunday pootles = more cyclists = more pressure, more political will, more money, more resources, more understanding.

Pretty much all cyclists start with Sunday pootles. No one shoves their youngest child onto the A-road and tells them they can have the stabilisers off when they've done five miles without getting squashed.

I don't want to be forced to use them otherwise all my rides will end up being Sunday pootles. I do not want that.

Why would you be forced to use them? If they were good quality then you might actively prefer to use them, as I do, but why would you be forced?

Which any large city in the UK tends to be a bit short of...

Is Newcastle not a "large city" then?

I'm not against seperate cycling facilities, but there isn't the will or the continued investment to make them work in large parts of the urban UK.

So are you providing any will or investment?

Yes, but that could be argued that the students push it past critical mass, a big multi-site university in a very small town means lots of cyclists, enough to make bikes quicker than cars, which gets everyone elese out on bikes.

Yes, but it's critical mass that's been achieved with shared space. We can learn a lot from the Dutch model about how that is achieved - segregation is only a small part of their success.

I like many of Sustrans' leisure routes, and I've made a monthly donation to them for many years. But they do little to solve the traffic problem in our towns and cities.

[i]So are you providing any will or investment?[/i]

Nope. Not interested in cycle paths, largely because they serve one section of the community and exclude everyone who can't or doesn't want to ride a bike.

Public transport should be the focus; you might get 6 bikes in the space of a car, but how many people can you get on a bus?

Most roadside cycle lanes in Cardiff however are used as street parking.

There's a solid-line, no-parking cycle lane down the road from where I live that merges seamlessly into marked parking bays ([url= http://is.gd/XBMLvd ]link, you can see it on the north side of the road[/url]). Not that it matters, like, cos all the local residents just park wherever the **** they like anyway. A genius bit of infrastructure provision, even by the epically retarded standards of our local council.

I actively avoid the majority of marked lanes and ASLs and so on round our way, most of our local "facilities" are bloody lethal. My own commute isn't bad, because I take a lot of cheeky options along towpaths and footpaths, but it's muddy and inconvenient, so I'd love to have a commute like the OPs, lucky sod.

Cycling levels in Cambridge are around 30% excluding students.

I have to say I'm a bit sceptical of that figure. Hembrow (yes, him again) reckons it's more like 20%, and a lot of that is made up of ex-students who have stuck around. http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2011/11/truth-about-cambridge.html

Yeah no doubt people will cycle under less than ideal conditions, but what gets people cycling in massive numbers, safely, in an industrialised country with easy access to cars, is a bit more of a vexed question, and Holland, Germany and Denmark all seem to be doing it right.

I like many of Sustrans' leisure routes, and I've made a monthly donation to them for many years. But they do little to solve the traffic problem in our towns and cities.

This is true.

But that traffic problem is a problem for existing cyclists. People who already cycle in traffic despite the conditions.

We are not the target audience.

We need to attract new cyclists. People who don't currently cycle. And what they want, as evidenced by national surveys and personal replies here, are traffic-free routes.

Nope. Not interested in cycle paths, largely because they serve one section of the community and exclude everyone who can't or doesn't want to ride a bike.

They are open to people on foot too you know. Most will even be wheelchair accessible. I don't see that as "exclusive" at all.

I like Sustrans - a lot. Great work done by good people. Been a supporter for many years.

Nope. Not interested in cycle paths, largely because they serve one section of the community and exclude everyone who can't or doesn't want to ride a bike

All cycle paths are defacto open to pedestrians too.

oooop - beaten to it, true though. 8)

[i]They are open to people on foot too you know. Most will even be wheelchair accessible. I don't see that as "exclusive" at all[/i]

Give over!

You'd be moaning like anything if your journey to work was held up by people walking along or in wheelchairs.

It strikes me as a kind of empire building; build us cycle paths so we can ride unhindered through the land.... Er, yes, but what about everyone else?

...the danger is that you turn into drivers in terms of attitude.

Look at the problems of moving the entire city work force in and out again once a day; bicycle paths ain't gonna do it.

More sunday pootles = more cyclists = more pressure, more political will, more money, more resources, more understanding.

.. for Sunday pootles, yes.

The danger is that cycling turns into Sunday pootling. I've had aggro from drivers both here and in Germany for NOT being on the cyclepaths.

In Germany there was a concerted effort by local authorities to effectively ban cyclists from roads by exploiting a loophole - if they put up a sign signalling a cyclepath then you were obliged to use it. Most of them you are forced to cycle below about 15mph because it's just to dangerous and irresponsible to go faster.

This loophole was legally closed a few years ago because the federal govt ruled that it was unlawful for local authorities to do this - cycle path usage should only be mandated at particularly dangerous junctions or segments.

Which was good, since it probably cut my commuting time by a third and allowed me to enjoy my cycling.

Public transport should be the focus; you might get 6 bikes in the space of a car, but how many people can you get on a bus?

Public transport doesn't have any of the health benefits of cycling and while it continues to be monopolised by private companies like First Group, it's going to remain patchy and expensive.

An example are the Bus Rapid Transit systems that keep being proposed in Bristol. They'd only be able to carry a fraction of the numbers who commute in and out of the city, and the proposed routes all seem to encroach on existing cycle infrastructure. Grrrr...

There's a solid-line, no-parking cycle lane down the road from where I live that merges seamlessly into marked parking bays. Not that it matters, like, cos all the local residents just park wherever the **** they like anyway. A genius bit of infrastructure provision, even by the epically retarded standards of our local council.

Roadside cycle lanes don't work IMO.
This is James St Cardiff and I use this cycle lane daily (in red).
Even on this google image you can see the lane is just a carpark and its usually alot worse than this in rush hours.

[img] http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=241284&d=1344002035 [/img]

Yes, and I am talking specifically about the bit between town and Castell Coch, that I used to use. Mostly on weekends, when it was crowded. Although I still think I'd go along the A4054 anyway even if I was going all the way to Ponty.

On the rare occasion I've had to work weekends and commuted I'd agree you do get a lot of walkers. They seem to be a different breed too who are totally oblivious to any other trail users. During the commute hours walker seem to be more aware and accommodating.

As for the A4054 v Taff Trail to Pontypridd, if anything the TT surface is better and of course has no traffic to contend with. However, it is about a mile further so takes about 5 minutes longer. But I'll put up with that not to have to ride in traffic.

You'd be moaning like anything if your journey to work was held up by people walking along or in wheelchairs.

Plenty of people walking on my route. There's a school on it and if you come past at school hours there are lots of kids walking (and cycling). That's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. It's a wide enough path that they don't slow me down too much.

And yes I regularly see a guy in a recumbent hand-cycle too.

It strikes me as a kind of empire building; build us cycle paths so we can ride unhindered through the land.... Er, yes, but what about everyone else?

Nonsense - it's about empire [i]destroying[/i]! Cars already have the empire - we just want some back to walk and cycle on safely.

Look at the problems of moving the entire city work force in and out again once a day; bicycle paths ain't gonna do it.

They can play a big part. In more civilised countries 45% of journeys are made by bike, including riding to work!

In the words of Ian Walker "car parking is a nice illustration of the bizarre level of freedom given to motorists"

http://bamboobadger.blogspot.co.uk/2008/01/car-parking-ill-just-leave-this.html

Also less cars, buses become more efficient and practical. When I lived in leeds I walked, because it often about the same speed as getting a bus...

You'd be moaning like anything if your journey to work was held up by people walking along or in wheelchairs.

Isn't that the sort of attitude that causes friction in the first place, people not wanting to be held up in their cars etc? Aren't cyclists supposed to be a bit more laid back about it all?
I'd just set off earlier and chill a bit more TBH

I've had aggro from drivers both here and in Germany for NOT being on the cyclepaths.

We all have. I've been shouted at to [i]"get off the road"[/i] and to [i]"get on the road"[/i] in the same journey.

If there was a referendum tomorrow to make it law that bikes must use cycle paths then the "Yes" vote would win hands down.

But if more of the population were cycling then you'd get a lot more sympathy.

In Germany there was a concerted effort by local authorities to effectively ban cyclists from roads by exploiting a loophole - if they put up a sign signalling a cyclepath then you were obliged to use it.

We are not Germany. And as you point out, it failed there anyway!

We need to attract new cyclists. People who don't currently cycle. And what they want, as evidenced by national surveys and personal replies here, are traffic-free routes.

It's pretty clear that new cyclists want safe routes. They perceive that traffic-free routes are the way to achieve this (though my understanding is that they're not actually any safer...)

As I keep saying, segregated facilities are only one small part of the story in places like Denmark and Holland. I can think of a whole list of actions that they have taken which would make life better for cyclists, none of which involve shoe horning a cycle path into a narrow street.

Anyway, turn the argument around: the Dutch embarked on a massive programme of building segregated facilities from the late 1980s: it didn't lead to an increase in cycling. "build it and they will come" is a nonsense.

I'm not anti the idea, I'm not even sure I can be arsed arguing about it, but it all sounds so selfish.

Take my family (please...)

My mum doesn't ride a bike, she's 70, she's very fit, but doesn't ride a bike.
Her sister, my Aunt, has had a joint replacement, she's 80.
My dad can't manage to stand up for very long, he's proper poorly.
Me? I could ride a bike to work and back.
Mrs crikey travels about during the day for work, so needs a car, in fact having a car is a prerequisite for the job.

So all that investment would benefit me, and have no effect at all on the others.
That's what I mean by selfish; you're thinking of cyclists, not people.

There's a great blog post discussing the failure of cycling in Milton Keynes here: http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/they-built-it-and-they-didnt-come-the-lesson-of-milton-keynes/

But in short, while it's easy to cycle there, it's even easier to drive. Not something that applies to most other cities in the UK.

So, in summary:

1. People don't cycle in Milton Keynes because it isn't time competitive when compared to driving. Milton Keynes has extensive segregated infrastructure.
2. People do cycle in Cambridge (and Oxford and York) because it is time competitive. Cambridge has little segregated infrastructure.

Not really an argument for building more cycle paths, is it?

the Dutch embarked on a massive programme of building segregated facilities from the late 1980s: it didn't lead to an increase in cycling.

That's technically true, numbers of Dutch and Danish cyclists are now falling slightly I believe. But they kept their levels of cycling higher than anywhere else in Europe in the face of enormous pressure from private motor vehicles.

Bogota in Columbia still has fairly paltry cycling levels (about 5% apparently) but it's an example of somewhere which saw a big increase in cycling after building proper infrastructure (and improving the bike-friendliness of public transport).

http://thisbigcity.net/photo-essay-bogota-and-the-bicycle-a-city-that-prioritises-cyclists/

...and the minute you begin to segregate cyclists from 'traffic', road design begins to ignore them, concentrating on processing cars and lorries and motorbikes faster and faster; making the roads more dangerous for everyone, especially pedestrians.

Need to stop thinking about 'cycling' and start thinking about 'transport'...

We are not Germany. And as you point out, it failed there anyway!

I was giving an example of what could happen with segregated cycle facilities. You asked how we'd end up banned from the roads, I gave an example from a different country. The point was that the motorists USED this 'rule' to feel justified in giving out lots of grief even when it wasn't legal.

I'd just set off earlier and chill a bit more TBH

It's not just about that, it's about being at liberty to do my sport, which is cycling quickly.

But if more of the population were cycling then you'd get a lot more sympathy.

Hmm, perhaps, but there's a difference between cycling for transport and recreation and cycling for sport. If the majority were just tootlers then the fast cyclists would be just as outcast as they are now.

One last point from me.

I work part time in a TIC, and I am frequently being asked by visitors if there are any Cycle paths from the town. There aren't but I ask what they mean to try and offer them the next best thing. Invariably what they mean is a sustrans style cycle path (along the old railway etc.), and often they are of the opinion we must have one, because we had a railway.

People (some people, that I am in no position to accurately quantify) want to cycle in a traffic free environment.