[Closed] I'm not a troll but...the bloke on an E-bike at degla today....

Absolutely true. But it's not new with e-bikes, this has happened for decades with [the minority of self-important dicks on] normal bikes and people on foot. E-bikes just mean that the previous top predator now finds itself in the food chain.

Love all the arguing about semantics, sometimes you can't just glue two words together and make a thing. Some wheelchairs have batteries, this doesn't make them electric chairs.

That will be the day when all bikes are no longer tolerated on footpaths IMO.

Bez
Because, given that the vehicle is immaterial, if I were to list every possible analogous scenario it'd be fairly tedious to read, so I just picked one. Car-on-car, fine, doesn't matter: some people behave like this on foot and I'm not equating cars with shoes either.

Don't start me on shoes 😆

I know what you meant, was just being slightly obtuse - can't resist, especially on an e-bike thread, with a 4 month old child in the house this is as close a chance as I get to intervening in a stupid pub argument with the sole purpose of making it worse 😉

Toasty
Love all the arguing about semantics, sometimes you can't just glue two words together and make a thing. Some wheelchairs have batteries, this doesn't make them electric chairs.

Aye it does.

The OP's "I'm not a troll but…" gambit has a lot to answer for 😉

[quote=nealglover ]Nope. The law says they are pedal cycles.
So they are pedal cycles.
It's amazing how people keep repeating the same incorrect nonsense.
And doing it in a really cocky way too
Dunning Kruger Effect ..... tick!

An interesting philosophical point. You could legally define a duck to be a dog, but it would still be a duck.

Not sure why the poster who made this comment got so much stick about it.

Nor me. It was just about the only interesting comment in this thread.

Getting "other trail users" to think of mountain bikes as being more like walking, and less like engineless motorbikes, is key to acceptance of our use of trails that are legally speaking no go.

Nope. The law says they are pedal cycles.

The law says that they should, in the main part, be treated the same as pedal cycles.
I personally see this as a good and necessary thing to promote their use.
The flip side though of course is pedal cycles are legally considered much the same as e-bikes.
Remember, in 99% of cases in England, pedal cycles are treated the same as horses off road.
Legally classified together does not mean what some people take it to mean.

Pop question… how old do you need to be to ride a pedal cycle on roads or public trails in the UK? How old do you need to be to do the same on an e-bike?

[quote=tomhoward ]If you turn the pedals on it, it goes forward. Just like every legal ebike, fat bike, road bike, tandem, mountain bike etc ad infinitum

How about if you don't turn the pedals and it still goes forwards (when not going down a hill - clarification for the pedantic)? Does that make it a motorbike?

Race - at a good opportunity (arguably another topic ) shout "on yer left/right" and get on with it

though to be fair, people tend to be a bit more discreet about the electric motors in their bikes when they're racing.

Does that make it a motorbike?

If it has a throttle then legally yes AIUI. to be a legal ebike the motor must only assist, not provide the sole power source so can only work when the cranks are turning.

Except we've already done that one, and twist to go is legal for all e-bikes sold before January 2016 and also for those sold after that if they've gone through type approval.

.......and also for those sold after that if they've gone through type approval.

And those ones, are no longer legally classed as pedal cycles.

A quick google suggests the type approval is for the 45kph speed pedalecs allowed in Europe, rather than the 25kph ones here, and they are, legally, mopeds. (Compulsory helmet, though the is some descretion on what type of helmet must be worn)

maxtorque - Member
and this brings conflict.

ebikes have their place
for the injured / infirm and in some cases older....
the problem is lazy fluffy bunnies...

stay away from the cakes...

Nope. The law says they are pedal cycles.

So they are pedal cycles.

It's amazing how people keep repeating the same incorrect nonsense.
And doing it in a really cocky way too

Dunning Kruger Effect ..... tick!

Nope. The law says they are pedal cycles.
So they are pedal cycles

The law only really matters if it is enforced(either via self enforcement or via the police physically enforcing it)/ or you get caught.

ebikes have their place
for the injured / infirm and in some cases older....
the problem is lazy fluffy bunnies...

stay away from the cakes...

As I said on another thread.
I walk 30-35 miles a week.
Go to the gym 3 times a week.
Ride a non e-bike at least twice a week.

And will be riding an ebike (or driving) for the rest of the time.

How does that fit in with your narrow minded view ?

The law only really matters if it is enforced(either via self enforcement or via the police physically enforcing it)/ or you get caught.

It's a legal classification.

Still fairly irrelevant if you don't get caught.

Again?

Need an e-bike bingo card asap

Still fairly irrelevant if you don't get caught.

"Get caught" ?

It's a legal classification.
An ebike is a pedal cycle.
Not a motorbike.

Nothing to do with "getting caught"

Is it a motorbike? Yes or No.

Try again.

You'll get it.

An ebike is a pedal cycle.

Almost.

Pop question… how old do you need to be to ride a pedal cycle on roads or public trails in the UK? How old do you need to be to do the same on an e-bike?

By the way, cake is good, eat more cake not less.

You are trying to use a classification intended to encourage the use of Electric bikes as transport to excuse their misuse in a niche area not considered when they were being classified.

So technically they may be classified as pedal cycles now but they arent they are bikes with motors so motorbikes and if you and the other fanbois keep abusing this loophole there will need to be more regulation(at public expense)to cater for anti social tools who cant tell right from wrong.

"Some wheelchairs have batteries, this doesn't make them electric chairs. "
Is this in any way linked to your STW name Toasty?
There is some bollocks here by people trying to be difficult. Sort of the verbal equivalent of riding an ebike and trying to pass in an antisocial manner?

Why not be sensible and separate the issues. Was the OP being passed by a rude git who would have done the same if he was super fast on a normal bike? Probably yes.
Is it likely that this happened to this rider by that ride because the latter was on an ebike. Probably yes.
Can any of actually say categorically exactly what happened and who was thinking what at that moment in time? Doubt it .

Trouble is, and will increasingly be, that the non "legal" ebikes will start to make their presence known in greater numbers in places where they should not be and in the guise of a cycle not a motorcycle. Some one in authority will notice or some one will get hurt than the whole can of worms will explode. And it will to be no ones benefit.

You are trying to use a classification intended to encourage the use of Electric bikes as transport to excuse their misuse in a niche area not considered when they were being classified.

Firstly, I'm not trying to justify any sort of "misuse" if you can point to where I have, then I'll retract it.

Secondly, The latest revision of the regulations was slightly over 12 months ago. What's changed since then ?
The ebikes that are available on the market today are Exactly the bikes that were considered when the latest classification was made.

What "loophole" am I exploiting ?

Is this in any way linked to your STW name Toasty?

😀

This sort of behavior could lead to the the very worst kind of mixup. My gran was having trouble walking, next thing I know they've given her the electric chair.

Don't really see the issues with e-bikes personally, arguing over wording really isn't going to change much though. I've not seen any extra trail damage or spike in casualties caused by them, I'd imagine more people will get out biking as a direct result. I doubt I'll ever bother personally, but only due to cost of them.

I quite like that they allow friends/couples of differing physical fitness to exercise together really. It's just another good way of getting people outdoors doing something.

I wouldn't go quite that far Toasty, the law only addresses use on public rights of way. Most trail centres and forestry where folk ride a lot don't include many ROWs, so access depends on landowner permission. The danger for ebikers is that the landowners react to conflict by banning ebikes in the same way they ban motorbikes. Regardless of what any legal definition is.

I wouldn't go quite that far Toasty, the law only addresses use on public rights of way. Most trail centres and forestry where folk ride a lot don't include many ROWs, so access depends on landowner permission.

Apologies, I deleted the ranty bit on the end before seeing this. For the benefit of anyone else, I said they had as much right to be there as anyone else, but with more ranting.

I've heard of e-bikes being banned in other countries on trails, whenever they get mentioned on the STW Facebook page there seems to be a wall of Americans moaning about them as well. I dunno, it's an odd one. If it gets more people out and doesn't cause more accidents, I'm all for it personally.

nealglover - Member

Is it a motorbike? Yes or No.

No.
Only an idiot would describe an e-bike as a motorbike; motorbikes don't have pedals.

They're electric mopeds.

They're electric mopeds.

So I'd need Registration Docs, Number Plates, Insurance, a CBT certificate and a Helmet to ride one then.
Interesting, I'd better go shopping.

Only an idiot would describe an e-bike as a motorbike; motorbikes don't have pedals.

I wouldn't quite go so far as to call someone an 'idiot' for that. Likewise:

They're electric mopeds.

Please gods make it [url= https://www.carolenash.com/news/1512-what-is-a-scooter-moped-or-motorcycle ]stop![/url]

Not at all neal, you must have missed the bits in this thread that state you can use an electric moped without tax, insurance, CBT and a helmet, subject to certain conditions.

Please gods make it stop!

There's no point in posting links to actual information.

There are still people here that insist on using the logic that says if Lewis Hamilton's car has pedals, then it's a Pedal Car.

There are still people here that insist on using the logic that says if Lewis Hamilton's car has pedals, then it's a Pedal Car.

That would be silly, pedal refers to the way it is powered.

Same as the electric moped. Powered by electric mo(tor) and ped(als).

What have you got against mopeds?

nealglover - Member

So I'd need Registration Docs, Number Plates, Insurance, a CBT certificate and a Helmet to ride one then.
Interesting

Interesting that you edited out "tax" more like. 😆

Whoopsie!

Yes, I'd not realised they are exempt.

As I don't have one, I didn't know, until I checked.

Does that somehow incalidate the point though? No.

A quick look suggests that petrol mopeds do need tax, it's electric mopeds that don't, subject to certain conditions.

I can see how you would confuse the two. 😉

Well, I've never ridden or owned any sort of motorbike or moped, so I've no idea about them at all.

A moped (category AM) is defined as having a maximum design speed over 25km/h (15.5mph) but not exceeding 45 km/h (28 mph); or a light quadricycle with an unladen weight not more than 350kg and up to 45km/h. It has an engine capacity no greater than 50 cubic centimetres (cc) and can be moved by pedals if it was first used before 1 September 1977.

ie not all mopeds [s]are powered[/s] can be moved by pedals

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/information-moped-riders

And to really put the sauce on the horse -

If an electric motorbike is restricted to 15mph, has a motor of 250 watts output or less, and has pedals, it is legally an electric bicycle and can be ridden by anyone aged 14 or over. They require no registration documents, number plates, tax disc or MOT. The rider does not need to be in possession of a licence.

Motorbike
Electric Motorbike
Electric Scooter
Moped
Pedelec
E-bike

^ not all the same. Except the last two get used interchangeably. Confusingly.

ymmv depending on country and whether referring to legal definition or just being an ass for the sake of it.

Please stop now? All these terms are easily searchable for legal definition purposes.

No.
Only an idiot would describe an e-bike as a motorbike; motorbikes don't have pedals.

Genuine question... What is a derestricted ebike categorised as? A moped/motorbike?

So an electric bike and an electric moped might actually look identical in every way, the only way of knowing is to examine the installed firmware?

Easy to see why some people think ebikes = motorbikes

Genuine question... What is a derestricted ebike categorised as? A moped/motorbike?

Mostly just "illegal"
(to use anywhere except private land with the landowners permission.)

So an electric bike and an electric moped might actually look identical in every way, the only way of knowing is to examine the installed firmware?

No.
Derestricted ebikes look like ebikes. But faster.

Electric mopeds look like mopeds, but electric.

Easy to see why some people think ebikes = motorbikes

Not really. No.

No.

That's a porky pie isn't it? 😳

Derestricted ebikes look like ebikes. But faster.

Electric mopeds look like mopeds, but electric.

And what is a derestricted ebike, by your standard of definitions?

Precisely.

You ride an electric moped, get over it man! 🙂

Not really. No

Let's face it, if you're a knob and recently paid the best part of £5k for an ebike you're probably going to get it derestricted and probably ride like a knob, much faster than the rest of us.

Which will increase tensions with those we currently share the trails with and affect all of us, whether we ride ebikes or not.

We can't stop knobs from riding bikes, but we can stop knobs from riding really fast ebikes by banning ebikes.

And what is a derestricted ebike, by your standard of definitions?

An ebike that was sold as an ebike and meets the current regulations to be classed as a pedal cycle legally, then someone removes the speed limiter or ups the power, making it illegal to use (apart from private land etc.)

Let's face it, if you're a knob ...etc

And they can also buy non ebikes, and ride it like a loon with no regard for horses, walkers or baby robins.
All to the same effect as a nob on an ebike.

We can't stop knobs from riding bikes, but we can stop knobs from riding really fast ebikes by banning ebikes.

You could then realise that's not solved the problem.
And think "ok, we'd best ban bikes too"

Great idea.

nealglover - Member

An ebike that was sold as an ebike and meets the current regulations to be classed as a pedal cycle legally, then someone removes the speed limiter or ups the power, making it illegal to use (apart from private land etc).

Unless you registered/insured it et cetera, then you could use a much simpler definition.

Ride on, e-moped rider. 🙂

[img] [/img]

We can't stop knobs from riding bikes, but we can stop knobs from riding really fast ebikes by banning ebikes.

We can't selectivly stop knobs from posting utter shite on web forums so we should ban web access for everyone just to make sure

And they can also buy non ebikes, and ride it like a loon with no regard for horses, walkers or baby robins.
All to the same effect as a nob on an ebike.

Exactly. But unlikely to be found riding at a busy Degla on a sunny Sunday afternoon like in the OP.

Is it fair to treat every ebiker with suspicion that they are riding a derestricted ebike? When there is no way of actually knowing?

We can't selectivly stop knobs from posting utter shite on web forums so we should ban web access for everyone just to make sure

Good call! 😀

Here are some legal definitions for you to get your teeth into. From the Road Traffic Act 1988, s. 185:

(1) In this Act—
...
“motor cycle” means a mechanically propelled vehicle, not being an invalid carriage, with less than four wheels and the weight of which unladen does not exceed 410 kilograms,
...
“motor vehicle” means , subject to section 20  of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970 (which makes special provision about invalid carriages, within the meaning of that Act), a mechanically propelled vehicle intended or adapted for use on roads,
...

That is not the end of it, we also have s. 189

(1) For the purposes of the Road Traffic Acts—
(a) a mechanically propelled vehicle being an implement for cutting grass which is controlled by a pedestrian and is not capable of being used or adapted for any other purpose,
(b) any other mechanically propelled vehicle controlled by a pedestrian which may be specified by regulations made by the Secretary of State for the purposes of this section and section 140  of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, and
(c) an electrically assisted pedal cycle of such a class as may be prescribed by regulations so made,
is to be treated as not being a motor vehicle.

Unless you registered/insured it et cetera, then you could use a much simpler definition.

It would need type approval too. Not that easy.

You could then realise that's not solved the problem.
And think "ok, we'd best ban bikes too"

Great idea

That's kinda my point and pretty much my only concern about ebikes.

It's a fun topic to discuss, I don't have a huge problem with ebikes other than the ease of derestricting and the potential effect on the other people we share the trails with lumping us all into one group of mountain bikers and trying to get us all banned

Which will increase tensions with those we currently share the trails with and affect all of us, whether we ride ebikes or not.

the folk who get wound up about having to share trails with people don't care much what the other folk are doing, all they know is that they don't like it. If it was space hoppers, they won't like it, if it's anything other than the thing they enjoy doing, you're wrong.

ebikes? they're just not going into that much detail.

[i]Unless you registered/insured it et cetera, then you could use a much simpler definition.[/i]
It would need type approval too. Not that easy.

One of my customers has an electric moped which falls under the definition of an e-bike.
Doesn't ever pedal it and quite rightly doesn't wear a helmet, winds up loads of people!

With regards to not having to pedal, even one of the e-bike reviews that someone linked to on here mentioned how easy it was to "load up" the pedals and powerslide around corners, so I think not having a separate throttle is a pretty moot difference.

guys - don't feed the trolls

Wouldn't access improve once a gazillion people jump on e-bikes? We'll need more trails, Yes peas and thankyou.

Trail centres didn't pop up because a few of us were out in the woods, these places appeared because of the mass increase in riders.

Not type approval, unless you wanted to sell them to the public that way. If you are just modifying it you need to comply with other legal stuff and get an MOT, but type approval is for manufacturers not bodgers.

No. Type approval can be obtained by anyone.

From The DfT

Type approval can either be obtained by a vehicle manufacturer approving in volume (the UK type approval authority is the Vehicle Certification Agency) or by an individual seeking a Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval, conducted by the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA).

After obtaining Type approval for a derestricted ebike, you would then need to register it, and MOT it, etc etc.

Wouldn't access improve once a gazillion people jump on e-bikes? We'll need more trails, Yes peas and thankyou.

Trail centres didn't pop up because a few of us were out in the woods, these places appeared because of the mass increase in riders.

That would be great, although we're not entirely short of places to ride up here... BikeParkLakes!

Good point though, although I think we'd have better chance of expanding legal access without ebikes. We shall see I guess.

Ah thanks for that, it is different for cars etc., where compliance with full type approval requirements isn't necessary in many situations. I'm not sure that motorcycle single vehicle thingy is exactly the same as type approval for types, as it were, but motorbikes do appear to be dealt with differently. But perhaps full type approval is less onerous for bikes than cars so it doesn't matter.

Looks like someone's (the OP by the look of it) already started a petition

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/ban-e-bikes-from-offroad-footpaths-and-cycle-routes

"Silent Killers"

lolz.

signed

OP.
You just need to tool up better next time.
May I suggest getting yourself an Alta. 🙂
The way some people are going on they seem to think that moving a magnet will transform a pushbike into one of these. 😆

Anything petrol powered looks old now.

Looks like someone's (the OP by the look of it) already started a petition

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/ban-e-bikes-from-offroad-footpaths-and-cycle-routes

That wasn't me.

I wasn't going to weigh back in, but now a victim of identity fraud, probably by someone who rides an E-bike ([b]JOKING[/b]), perhaps I should.

I don't have massive trouble with e-bikes.

That particular rider, who was on an e-bike, I do have an issue with. He was rude and obtuse. The path was easily wide enough for four bikes, yet to ring a bell and shout move, has nothing to do with the status of your bike being electric or not, but everything to do with being a tosser.

I would never purposefully block another rider but when the bike is travelling so fast it could cause an accident, time must be given for the rider to move over and when they do they should be polite about it.

What I love about mountain biking is the camaraderie. Last time I was at degla, my mate had 5 pincg flats, I got a bollocking of the Mrs cause we were so late back. Everytime we stopped, when we were squeezing the last of the vulcanising solution on to the already punctured inner tube, everyone who went past asked if we needed a hand or tools. That's my sport, the sport I wake up for at unknown hours for, the sport I have arguments with my wife for and the sport that turns my kitchen table into a work bench.

Yet, when someone comes flying past me at 25mph and shouts move at my mate, I don't see that camaraderie.

I'm sure that there are decent e-bike riders, not everyone should be tarnished by the same brush. There will be those that would stop and those that would help but perhaps it's because your speed removes you from the trials and tribulations of riding.

Ride your e-bike but remember what it's like to ride. If you haven't ridden, get out and ride on the type of bike that makes mountain bike riding what it is. Then go back on your e-bike and continue to make the sport great.

I AM a troll, so I came up with this thread summary that should offend just about everyone.

[img] [/img]

Fooman wins the Internet today.
And I signed the petition

Fooman is the new "[i]jamie[/i]"

[quote=nealglover ]

.......and also for those sold after that if they've gone through type approval.

Try again, you'll get it

[i]And I signed the petition[/i]

You [i]signed[/i] that? 😆 😆 😆

(nice work DTF!)

nealglover »
.......and also for those sold after that if they've gone through type approval.

And those ones, are no longer legally classed as pedal cycles.
Try again, you'll get it

Are you talking about the 3.5mph "start assis throttlet" thing, that's still allowed ?

Or are you saying that twist and go is still allowed up to 15.5mph ?

I had an ebike, I don't anymore, that's another story though.

Nothing against people riding ebikes, riding an ebike doesn't mean you are reckless and rude, that can apply to a lot of people who ride almost anything.

Anyhow, on a serious note, how would you ban them?
How could this be enforced and policed?

We are having trouble with Moto crossers ripping up some parts of Afan trails at the moment, a much bigger problem than that of any ebikes.

The police budget has gone for patrolling the trails to catch these Moto crossers, and you can easily identify them , just the sound tells you what they are about.

Becoming more difficult to even tell if a mtb is an ebike or not these days.

Banning them won't work. Will just create negative impact, far better to have a campaign to ride responsibly for those that need it. But even that won't work for some.......

Banning anything never seems to do much good, education and understanding seems to do much better.

[quote=nealglover ]Are you talking about the 3.5mph "start assis throttlet" thing, that's still allowed ?
Or are you saying that twist and go is still allowed up to 15.5mph ?

The latter.

i rode my mega last night 15 miles off road, quickest ive been for ages. im fitter and getting more mobile from my shoulder op. i absolutely loved it, i probably take my ebike 1 in 4 times its a different type of riding and i love it too, as i do my 29er.
nobs on bikes = nob full stop, nothing to do with the bike

nice work DTF!

Exactly! Almost a return to form. 🙂