[Closed] I'm a bird-murdering, sheep-worrying, landscape wrecker.

Does this also apply to runners, walkers, children, dog walkers etc?

Should just read...

Anyone not walking can just eff off.
If we dont like you you can just eff off.
Especially bikes... pesky cheery bike riders can especially eff off.
Errr.. Thanks you

It is illegal to ride on the footpaths or [b]the moor itself[/b].

Some people must not be keeping to the paths..........

Although I admit this could also be walkers and such like!!

I bet dogs cause a lot more trouble for nesting birds and sheep than any amount of cyclists.

Cyclists will tend to stick to trails (cheeky or otherwise) whereas dogs will root around in the undergrowth until they find something warm, moving, and delicious, and then eat it.

I have two dogs, so I should know.

So you could do worse than to ask them if they have any actual evidence. I bet they won't.

Bloody Commoners

Some similarly hyperbolic signage round here put up by the Forestry Commission was changed after people pointed out its stupidity so I'd say it's worth contacting the NT (nicely!).

As far as worrying wildlife and sheep is concerned loose dogs are a far worse problem than mountain bikes and I don't see them mentioned. On erosion they may have a point - some cyclist seem prepared to widen paths to ridiculous extents to avoid getting their bikes muddy and in the process turn nice singletrack into something resembling a motorway construction site. Walkers may also contribute to this of course...

[url= http://www.holcombehunt.com ]http://www.holcombehunt.com[/url]

So its ok to run marauding packs of hounds followed by Tory MPs on horses across the moor in pursuit of small mammals to murder though. That won't cause any sheep to miscarry.

😯

EDIT

[url= https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/holcombe-moor-firing-times ]https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/holcombe-moor-firing-times[/url]

Nor will the MOD practising live firing upset any of the local wildlife.

Of course you may be (probably are) a contributor to all those things, more so than legitimate users though? Probably not.

Does the sign suggest that legitimate users are not contributing to these problems? No it doesn't, it just states you are.

It's a foot path (I assume PRoW) so they can't well put up signs saying walkers etc aren't permitted because you're not good for the environment and it's wildlife, rather they have to grin and bear it.

Cyclists on the other hand aren't allowed so the damage you do could be negated by you following the convention that foot paths are not for bikes.

Like it or not you're in the wrong, expect to be pilloried for it. I imagine the signs will mage zero difference to you any way.

Had a quick search, and found indications that some studies have been done on relative disturbance to nesting birds causing by hiking and mountain biking but I failed to track down the studies themselves.

But there are loads of papers showing that dogs have a high impact on nesting birds! Eg http://www.jstor.org/stable/3783988?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

I'd question whether that really comes from the NT or has been put up by the commoners, whoever they are.

The only time I'm wary of cheeky trails is on grouse moor. You can argue the act of trespass all you like, but if a rich landowner decides you've "damaged" his birds so he can't shoot them out of the sky a few weeks later, I reckon there's a high chance they can afford better lawyers than me.

As for sheep-worrying, I've been asked by farmers to slow down riding at night in lambing season which is fair enough, but as it was on a legal RoW (BOAT in this case) they could only ask.

I guess the speed (and relative silence) of bikes could shock animals more than walkers do (although not sure about runners), but you could argue that there's nothing to stop walkers stomping all over over bids nests etc.

Anyway, ask NT what's going on, but ultimately the sign is only highlighting the present law to which you ought to be abiding. They're not actually restricting anything, unless they're actually setting up more rangers to prosecute trespassers.

Day 1 of not smoking and you are already looking for a fight. This is going to be tough 😉

So its ok to run marauding packs of hounds followed by Tory MPs on horses across the moor in pursuit of small mammals to murder though.

Convert - I know. I normally hit peak obnoxiousness after day 4. Its all downhill from here. Well... until Friday, anyway 😉

So you could do worse than to ask them if they have any actual evidence. I bet they won't.

I'd question whether that really comes from the NT or has been put up by the commoners, whoever they are.

Bird Murdering ...yup ,we have two cats.

Sheep bothering ..Hmm,not for a while,and it never did go to court.

Landscape Wrecker ..Yup ,a shortcut over the 9th tee on an MX bike may have been a bit inconsiderate

Since when did NT have any involvement in Holcombe Moor!

dangeourbrain - Member
Of course you may be (probably are) a contributor to all those things, more so than legitimate users though? Probably not.
Does the sign suggest that legitimate users are not contributing to these problems? No it doesn't, it just states you are.
It's a foot path (I assume PRoW)

Sign says bridleway. Makes him a legitimate user no?

The most damage I've ever seen to bridleways, making them virtually impassable by bikes and walkers is from horses.
It's wrong they single out cyclists there.

load of b*ll*cks, ignore

Since when did NT have any involvement in Holcombe Moor!

That was my initial question too. Its the first I've heard about it. I've been riding those trails for a long time, and I've lived up there for years now, and never seen any hint of the NT there. Absolutely no signs of their presence at all, up until these signs going up

@ devash - the Holcombe Hunt is a fell pack, the followers are on foot (like John Peel). Now you may know different but I can't see your average (fully fit?) Tory MP hunt supporter walking to far from there range rover.

I have been told by an employee (former) of the NT that they keep records of car number plates that they suspect are owned by cyclists who are using their land. This included the names and addresses of the owners. This was for the Goyt Valley area.

It's a rather aggressive sign aimed at one specific group of users, it's also incorrect other than the fact that the negatives mentionned can be attributed to other users as well (horse riders for example to whom exactly the same rules apply) but as we all know trespass is a civil offence, not criminal so unless there are specific bylaws in place straying off the bridleway is not illegal.

Rather than worry about finding it your self I'd be asking for their evidence to back up claims and why they deem it acceptable to single out one user group over all others.

It's a real shame the guardian of our country side (the NT) still doesn't recognise cyclists as a legitmate user group.

Holcombe Moor has been NT for years, there were signs in the little car park balf way along the road. My guess is this more related to the 'commoners' who ever they are.

I have been told by an employee (former) of the NT that they keep records of car number plates that they suspect are owned by cyclists who are using their land. This included the names and addresses of the owners. This was for the Goyt Valley area.

That sounds a bit dodgy to me. What legitimate reason are they holding that information for? Could see this falling foul of the Data Protection Act

Anyway, that sign would probably make a nice tea tray once you've taken it off that gate 😉

I have been told by an employee (former) of the NT that they keep records of car number plates that they suspect are owned by cyclists who are using their land. This included the names and addresses of the owners. This was for the Goyt Valley area.

my name and address isn't on my number plate

did the former employee claim they looked up registered owner details with the DVLA for cars they suspected were owned by cyclists? I'm no data protection expert but i'd assume you need a bit more justification than "I think it's owned by a cyclist who might be riding on a footpath"

IMBA did a study into this about a decade ago and found essentially the opposite to what that sign claims. They found that bikes scare and trouble wildlife much less because they pass more quickly and more quietly. They are also much less likely to have dogs with them.

With regards to erosion they and a study by the University of St Andrews found that bikes individually cause slightly more erosion than Walkers but much less than horses. However because there are many times more walkers the conclusion was that bikes as a user group contribute far less erosion. They are also more likely to go through puddles than around them so have a smaller effect on trail widening than walkers.

I'm on a phone so can't find it but it was published about ten years ago and the results were in MBR at the time.

See, this is ALL YOUR FAULT!

[img] [/img]

Stay on the bridleway* and there's no problem

*don't get seen/caught riding on the footpath. i.e carry on as normal

[url= https://www.imba.com/resources/research/trail-science/natural-resource-impacts-mountain-biking ]IMBA[/url] info.

The sign is about 50 yards up from there Esme. See all that water? That ended up running past our house and lifting all the pavements up and causing plenty of structural damage.

Perhaps its karma? 😥

I would be taking a pen to that and making it more inclusive so the wording is for everyone.

A pen?

If only I knew someone who knew about the print process, and could rustle up something visually identical, but with different wording.

But where would I find such a man?

I'm sure that sign won't last long 😆

(given the location, I suspect the shiny metal gates won't last long either...)

I would be tempted to challenge that with a cleverly written solicitors letter, challenging the claims.
also it looks to me as though it is not NT but the commoners who have created the sign, NT might be a bit miffed if they find their name is being used without their permission.

But best thing to do is tear it down and sh1t on it. then leave it by the gate.
The claims are ridiculous and unfounded, the number one problem for sheep and nesting birds is dogs.
cyclists have been proven to have negligible impact on either and as for erosion, the weather is the biggest factor coupled with poor maintenance, or badly executed maintenance.
The paths they talk of are scars in the landscape caused by walkers.
but that is negligible compared tot he fact that grouse moor is a fake landscape, effectively a managed rifle range.
the burn back and grouse management cause the erosion and flooding.

this whole issue winds me up and NT are complicit as they are the cronies that keep the status quo

Ed

Have you tried Twitter yet? I find they are great at this sort of thing.

Put a notice beside it with similar information for horse riders and dog walkers. See how long they stay up

From [url= http://www.foundationforcommonland.org.uk/stories/holcombe-moor-common-lancashire ]Foundation for Common Land[/url]:

[i]Over the last 20 years the amount of people using (Holcombe) moor for recreational purposes has increased dramatically. Forty years ago there were problems with motor bikes and tipping in the local quarries.[/i]

[i]Nowadays there are mountain bikers and large parties of walkers and dogs, camping, fly-tipping, fires, alcohol and drug dealing and the illegal use of firearms.[/i]

[i]Those who farm beside quarries have fencing stolen overnight to fuel fires. They can be woken up by thumping music from raves held in the quarries. Farm gates are opened or taken off their hinges allowing the in-bye cattle and sheep to escape.[/i]

I thought homosexuals caused the flooding in Somerset ?

Would be very surprised and quite annoyed if the the NT has had anything to do with this - it seems to be the work of someone rather ill-informed

I'd bring this to the attention of OpenMTB

[url= http://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/openmtb-the-new-uk-access-organisation/ ]http://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/openmtb-the-new-uk-access-organisation/[/url]

[url=

A pen?

Perhaps your right.

Remove it and then " Please stick to Paths and Bridleways" written on the gate in permanent marker ...

I like pens, me ...

Touching on something mentioned above. How can someone find out if there is a specific local bye law related to a footpath ?

That sign looks unbalanced, the Holcombe Moor Commoners Association need a snazzy logo like the National Trust have
Maybe something like the NT's leaf but drawn really badly so it accidentally looks a little bit like a pen!s

I'd question whether that really comes from the NT

No crowing Scots yet? 😀

I am just a resident of Scotland, not Scottish... 🙂

#itwouldneverhappenhere 😉

Weirdly, the NT has just put in a MTB trail on their land near me, no sign of a "use this & no where else" campaign yet either

it's not the desire to keep out bikes that causes me to question it, just something about the way it's written.

I'd be asking myself if any of those "claims made" are really being contributed to by me then I'd probably stick to the Bridleways only and not be contributing to the "claims"

Just a thought.

I've been accused of 'eroding a footpath' when I was riding across the clifftop on my way home. Fair enough I was riding on the Cleveland Way footpath with plenty of foot based erosion visible. I doubt my fatbike with 8psi in the 4.25" tyres would be causing much/any erosion & told the bloke as much.

I'd be asking myself if any of those "claims made" are really being contributed to by me then I'd probably stick to the Bridleways only and not be contributing to the "claims"

Just a thought.

Heres another thought. Read my post. That's pretty much the gist of it? 🙄

Near me on Greenham Common there are signs warning about ground nesting birds being disturbed during nesting season... by dogs. They have sections of the common which are marked as being off limits to dogs where they shouldn't be allowed to roam, and dog friendly sections where they can be let off the lead.

Nothing about bikes. Strangely the bike riders prefer to stick to the trails and paths rather than charging across the heathland randomly and hence aren't seen as a threat to ground nesting birds.

That sign looks like a "I don't like bikes so any random reason will do" rather than actually caring about the birds, as they'd be banning dogs and walkers too.

I'm planning to make an approach under PMBA to discuss the issues,already emailed the Chair

The sign has been up a few weeks, there is second one at the top of Robin Hoods Well.

I would suggest not broadcasting group rides through a local NT wood for a while might help as well 😉

A second aspect is that there are probably a few footpaths on the Moor with a good chance of a higher rights claim.

My main worry - isn't that the commoners don't like us, or even the NT, it's that all the bloody self-righteous moaners will read it and it'll give them even more reason to hate cyclists and have a rant - even though it's all completely unfounded (as always).

You can just picture them saying 'see' and practising their rant to include 'ground-nesting birds' which they previously hadn't thought of.

I would suggest not broadcasting group rides through a local NT wood for a while might help as well

The thing is BnD, we're pretty sensible. We stay off the tops, out of the woods, and on the hardpack when the conditions aren't ideal, and we know we'd be churning it up. We're not idiots! That why I really object to the tone of that sign.

As for the other issues: just spurious nonsense IMHO

NIMBYists!

We maintain 10 kids delivering the Daily Mail for you - please stay on your High Horses.

It is illegal to consider any else’s point of view other than your own. By doing so you can seriously disturb your smug superior self worth, cause cows to miscarry and cause soil erosion which causes cancer.

We all value your elitism, please continue to shit on anyone who disagrees with you.

Thank you

National T@s

Holcombe Moor
We’re not ‘common’ at all
Association

kayak23 - Member
...

Sign says bridleway. Makes him a legitimate user no?

It does, it also mentioned sheep. There is no complaint on the sign about him riding either of those.
In relation to the sign it *is* complaining about the riding of footpaths, where cyclists are not a legitimate user.

I'd be inclined to ask if there are genuinely no dogs on leads/no dogs in nesting season etc signs. Those are about as common place as the gates here, so any new sign wouldn't mention them, they already have signs addressing that issue, same as the sign doesn't say please stick to the way marked paths.

binners - Member
I'd be asking myself if any of those "claims made" are really being contributed to by me then I'd probably stick to the Bridleways only and not be contributing to the "claims"
Just a thought.

Heres another thought. Read my post. That's pretty much the gist of it?

Thats good then, seems we think a similar way on this point.

Try riding round an SSSI that has a trail centre in the middle of it (Cannock)

Signs all over the place usually a couple of weeks before the area is flattened by the loggers

Just wanted to check - this is all 'ooop North right?
With them northerners who are much more friendly and sociable than us southerners 😆
or so I keep getting told by northerners...

It isn't illegal to ride on the moor is it? Not that I've ever done so, I don't even know where this is. But a trespasser isn't normally breaking any laws that I'm aware of.

It's just as illegal to have a picnic - the rights are (normally) to pass and repass, not to sit down and have a meal. Put up a sign saying "no stopping" and see how long it lasts.

Holcombe Moor Commoners Association

Are they real?
Did the NT really do this?
Like Binners I ride repectfully and the mapping and the issues are BS

Some areas I can ride legally would be massively irresponsible and some footpaths locally are old hard packed cart routes now called footpaths
As the rules are not sensible I dont follow them
YMMV

Some areas I can ride legally would be massively irresponsible and some footpaths locally are old hard packed cart routes now called footpaths
As the rules are not sensible I dont follow them
YMMV

Pretty much bang on. I wouldn't stir the pot by seeking to engage formally - you'll be on a hiding to nothing and make yourself more 'known' to them.

Accept that you are in the wrong - technically. Accept that the anti-MTB stance has nothing whatsoever to do with the supposed reasons and a whole lot more to do with miserable sods. Carry on riding as normal. If you see anyone who looks like they want a barny just get off and push until out of sight. If they want stupid rules, they'll have to police it - properly - most people won't want the rigmarole of doing this.

centralscrutinizer - How can someone find out if there is a specific local bye law related to a footpath?

This is something I'd be interested in too

Soil erosion? I blame all those [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/tortoise-missing-near-peel-tower ]missing tortoises[/url] tortoises rampaging around the moor.
But at least [url= http://www.burytimes.co.uk/news/13370898.Missing_pet_tortoise_returns_home_after_nine_months/ ]Buttercup[/url] has now returned home.

Holcombe Moor Commoners Association

Altogether now....

" It's fun to fight with the H.....M.....C...A...." 8)

If you see anyone who looks like they want a barny just get off and push until out of sight.

" do you know this is a footpath
"yes"
" so you know but you dont care"
" I care just like the kinder trespassers cared when they were not allowed

In general its pointless trying to explain why the "laws" are poor

I tend to get more comment from non local walkers than locals as well for some reason

I tend to get more comment from non local walkers than locals as well for some reason

Dpends mylast one was - and this was all hardpacked man made footpath

" do you know this is a footpath
"yes"
" so you know but you dont care"
" I care just like the kinder trespassers cared when they were not allowed

In general its pointless trying to explain why the "laws" are poor

I tend to get more comment from non local walkers than locals as well for some reason

Yes, but they're just trying to antagonise you. There are a substantial number of people who go around looking to be offended. What they like more than anything else is a bit of an argument.

I agree it is not always easy not to rise to it, but it really is best not to.

On the other hand I have had the following encounter:

"Can't you read?"
"Yes, thanks"
"Then why are you riding that bike here?"
"Because I can make my own mind up about stupid rules. By the way, are you the landowner or their appointed agent?"
"Err, no"
"Thought not"

I was put off NT years ago after meeting one of their directors while on holiday. I remember the words mentioned "need to contain mountain biking". I think sums up their attitude. I do not believe they want to give access to anyone outside their own interest group. In terms of data protection from DVLC number plates, I believe "private car park operators" can buy that information so it is not secure.

So would it be unreasonable to contact NT

No, but be nice about it.

On your FB post you mentioned that lots of trails were reclassified from BWs to FPs? This would be a legitimate grievance IMO. Otherwise, complaining about not being able to do what you want with someone else's land is not going to get you far.

"need to contain mountain biking".

Then all the more reason to contact them and enlighten them that we're not all scumbag yoofs tearing the place up.

Just wanted to check - this is all 'ooop North right?

With them northerners who are much more friendly and sociable than us southerners

Its probably some poncey southerner who's just moved up with the BBC, cashed in the Equity on his Central London Townhouse, bought a massive barn conversion on the Moor, given himself the title Holcombe Moor Commoners Association, and started issuing dictats, because he thinks he now owns the place 😉

Its never the locals you have an issue with. I've never had grief when riding the footpaths, as we always do it considerately. Just a friendly hello. Which is why I don't get this. Its not Ambleside, or somewhere. Its a heavily worked post-industrial landscape, full of old quarries and derelict buildings. Sounds to me like the busy-body fun police looking for reasons to stop anything they don't personally like. I'm seriously dubious about this being an official NT communication, so i think I'll (politely) get in touch with them and find out what the score is

Careful now aggrieved Northerner...

You do have a tendency to blame "southerners", a tendency to pick on Tories, a tendency to point the finger at BBC types taking hold in your part of the county/country.

Some might think you start threads just to have a poke at these distinctly different social classes to that that can be found up there.

Fine line...

Some might think you start threads just to have a poke at these distinctly different social classes to that that can be found up there.

To be honest, I start threads to moan. I like moaning. And swearing. Those people you mention are just the ones i deem to be the most deserving of my contemptuous loathing. There are loads more. Its easier to just ask who isn't, really?

Come on though. Its a pretty tenuous suggestion that I started this thread so that I could blame the Tories? Though ultimately, it is probably Fatcha's fault

Anyway... I'm on my first 24 hours as a non-smoker. Give it another couple of days and I'll be a seething mass of pent up rage, ready to lash out in the most unhinged way at pretty much everyone

Just giving you the heads up 😀

From Foundation for Common Land:

You may have noticed on that page that the main owner is given as National Trust. A quick look at an OS map confirms that they do indeed own parts of it. As for the Commoners Association though......

Just ride where you like if you stick to footpaths the bird don't care if you are on foot or on a bike and the sheep are not breeding at this time of year and are no more scared of you on a footpath than on a bridleway, so where's the harm.

Beware the tortoise though, ours is quite nasty and bites.

Given the location of that sign a better use would be, removing it and clog dancing on it.

A "commoner" is someone who has certain rights on the land in question (grazing, mining/quarrying, peat cuttingetc) these can by historical connected to surrounding properties and individuals and go back a before the enclosure act to pre Norman times (as the Holme Valley)

In terms of data protection from DVLC number plates, I believe "private car park operators" can buy that information so it is not secure.

That's not the problem here, it's more that to store data you have to have a valid reason to do so. If the NT are keeping records of reg numbers and (presumably derived from the reg) personal details just because they 'think' someone in the car 'might' be riding a bike, then I can't see that being a valid reason. Therefore I'd suggest they'd be in breach of the DPA (even if they've just kept a list on paper)

I have no problem with you picking on any social (or anti-social) group.. Nor picking on those that you feel are endangering Northern Life...

Just don't hide it in a thread about Access Rights 😆

Start a proper whinge about it.

Anywhoo's, us Southerners have brought you Northerners all sorts of "good things". We sent up the BBC lot who were bothering us lot here something rotten, and with it came a huge glass edifice portal for you lot to point at and poke fun with.
We sent up rocket salad to you, which I'd imagine you thought was lettuce on a stick sent to the ISS once every month in some projectile, or other.
We sent up hummus too.. and who can't stop laughing when all your tiles came off the walls..
We also sent you Rapha.

Don't thank us all, all at the same time, thank us one by one eh.. 😀

Good luck with kicking the smoking habit... feel free to start a thread on it, include Fatcher in there somewhere for balance.

😆