[Closed] If you thought mandatory full facers were a pain for UKGE...

So your forfeit your membership of BC by racing enduro?
I though you'd just not be covered by the insurance for that event?

Of course not, its just lazy language, in line with the explanation of the insurance situation.

Rorschach - Member

Are you willing to personally under write an event in case of a negligent litigation against it ,on the basis that....'well no one has done it (that I am aware of) before in this country?'
That's what you're expecting the organiser to do...

Nup. Steve's been totally clear, this is personal cover only, it doesn't replace the organiser's insurance- they still have all of their liability cover in place exactly as before for the series

I'm struggling to see the point aswell ?
You have an accident and claim on your personal accident policy. As sure as night follows day, if your insurers think negligence was involved, their going to try and get their money back from the race organisers.
It might even make a claim even more likely. Without PA I'd just suck it up incase of an accident. After paying a premium I'd probably make a claim, starting the whole claim and counter claim ball rolling.

Hope Parr reads your comment Taxi25, because the same goes for me and I'm sure lots of others too.

More insurance means more of the "sue culture" that he's afraid of.

Dragon Parr wants to set up am enduro federation to do just that but not able to put in place this year

Mondraker gravity rally canceled this year too, not sure if thats an insurance issue ?

Scottish Enduro Series have confirmed no personal insurance requirement. Puts paid to any nonsense about this now being a practical requirement rather than the organiser's choice I think.

^^

Do they not have mates in the insurance business?

^ Lulz! ^

@kimbers - The Mondraker Exmoor enduro is not on this year as the National Trust estate has new management so the organisers are given them time to settle in according to their Facebook page. They hope to have it back in 2016 so fingers crossed

The director of the insurance co is now putting his oar in on FB - so far it's enough to make sure I never deal with that company

Why do we need insurance? Last year I raced and even though enduro was covered by BC i never thought I had PI cover just because I entered and I wouldn't even have thought of it.

Why do we need PI insurance now?

That's the million dollar question, and they still haven't answered it.

How much for a hand ? I broke my 5th metacarpal on stage 2 of the last ukge

And how much for a gash in your head picking up a curry

I bet if I takes the insurance out I won't injury myself at all this year, I think thats good

Nah, you'll just **** ligaments and the like instead as they don't seem to be covered

I broke my wrist at an Enduro race last year and smashed my knee up at another. I also wonder what I should get....

I posted this on the Facebook thread:

This might seem an off the wall suggestion but has anyone considered speaking to British Eventing (the horse thing!) Their sport is far more dangerous than enduro (over a dozen deaths in the last decade), with large courses, partially taped, and spectators wandering about. And horses being random! Find out what cover they provide and what they expect of the riders. I believe they rely heavily on people signing disclaimers! http://www.britisheventing.com

And to add to that, I've been on quite a lot of horse riding holidays, where you sign a disclaimer accepting the risk and waiving your right to claim damages in the case of an accident.

I'd imagine talking sense like that would get you either ignored or deleted...

I broke my wrist at an Enduro race last year and smashed my knee up at another. I also wonder what I should get

Skills training 😉

Junkyard - lazarus
Skills training

I actually booked a course today!

[quote=chiefgrooveguru ] I've been on quite a lot of horse riding holidays, where you sign a disclaimer accepting the risk and waiving your right to claim damages in the case of an accident.Not worth the paper it's written on.

I just don't understand the ukge logic. It makes no sense. At best it looks like they are clueless and at worst that they are profiteering from their links with their preferred insurance company. Either way, I'm out.

Loving the amount of people saying they'll leave UKGE races alone from now on, might have a better chance at getting an entry this year, they don't half sell out quickly for such an 'awful' organisation.

But if I was planning to do just one event its £70 for the race + £8x12 for the annual insurance. It seems expensive before you add on the cost of insurance!

I spoke to UKGE preferred insurer yesterday they told me insurance- personal is from £2 a week. this WON'T cover the loss of income so you need another add on for that. I've had a few injuries in the last few years this has affected my quote it won't be £2 a week for me.

I'm still waiting for a official line as to why it's needed from parr but the insurance company said its all related to the incident at Llangollen and the concern for serious injury to a rider suing the. Race organiser. For speaking to alot of people Who raced last year and wanted to race this year they are not keen on the idea of UKGE any more vague rules that parr makes up as he goes along. The PMBA enduros are going to be very popular!

I can see the concern about the race organiser being sued, but personal insurance will only make things worse as the race organiser will now be dealing with insurance companies rather than individual people.

If I'm paying for a policy that'll give me cash if I hurt myself and I do hurt myself, I'm going to claim. Without the policy I'd just take it on the chin, chalk it up as bad luck, all part of racing, these things happen, etc.

Ukge is encouraging the suing culture and making it more expensive for everyone, themselves included!

The full face rule had already guaranteed that I wouldn't be entering any UKGE races in 2015 so I'm just watching this insurance thing with amusement.

PMBA for me this year.

Oh and one point I forgot you can only claim once a year with bespoke.

If any insurance company pays out for an injury or damage, they are as sure as hell going to look at mitigating their loss by seeing if they can't pin the blame on someone else - probably UKGE - and suing to recover the loss if possible.
It makes little sense for UKGE to get people to insure themselves (even if they are getting a kick back) rather than including them on their policy and charging for it in the entry fee.

I'm still really confused how if I have personal injury insurance it stops me suing UKGE in the event they are negligent...

The sad thing is that Parr genuinely cares that people are covered of they are injured

Its not an insurance scam or conspiracy

Fortunately the series will still sell out and be the best in the uk

Its popular for a reason

I'm still really confused how if I have personal injury insurance it stops me suing UKGE in the event they are negligent...

Your insurance company will pay you, they - in turn - will look at claiming from UKGE if possible to recoup their losses.

Your insurance company will pay you, they - in turn - will look at claiming from UKGE if possible to recoup their losses.

Oh and one point I forgot you can only claim once a year with bespoke.

plecostomus - Member
Oh and one point I forgot you can only claim once a year with bespoke.
POSTED 41 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

lolz, so if you enter 2 races and make a claim after the first, they shouldn't let you do the 2nd as you're no longer covered!

The sad thing is that Parr genuinely cares that people are covered of they are injured

But between the NHS and full time employment with sick pay most people already are.

As a freelancer I find myself in a different position, although when I looked at income protection recently all but one company the broker I was talking to dealt with refused to cover me, and the cover offered by the remaining company wasn't particularly great.

Legend that's what I thought!

So who's looked at any other companies then ?

A fair chunk of the dig crew and organisers are self employed though and I thinks thats a lot to do with it

I must admit bespoke maybe in trouble, I know of 4 people who broke bones last year at ukge races, 2x hands, 2x ribs

One thing with the insurance and then counter suing thing is that there are predefined payout amounts for injury type.

As a result, its easier for the event insurer to calculate risk and so premium, rather than against the usual pie in the sky figures from ambulance chasers. Just a thought.

I'm no expert but even if people have personal cover surely that would not mean that the organisers are no longer liable. Couldn't the insurer try and recoup the cost from the organiser and rider wouldn't have waived their rights.

Even if they have been recommended by UKGE and have a business agreement with them? It would be easier for them to avoid paying out would it not?

Well, I would guess that their preferred company is merely a broker rather than an insurance company and wouldn't be paying from their coffers so - yeah - even with their agreement.

I'm still waiting for a official line as to why it's needed from parr but the insurance company said its all related to the incident at Llangollen and the concern for serious injury to a rider suing the. Race organiser.

I get the feeling UKGE have been poorly advised and havent done their homework. Just because a rider has insurance that doesn't remove any possibility of suing. The whole thing is a shambles.

I reckon their intention here is to go after the the riders insurance in the event of an accident. If there was a Llangollen type incident, the riders insuree will be held liable instead of the race organisers. As long as they can prove no negligence on their behalf the liability will sit with the rider. If they make sure they have insurance then they dont have to worry about either them or the rider being out of pocket (unless the insurers deny claims and say the rider was negligent etc)

Again, its an absolute shambles and actually creates a suing culture rather than stopping it 🙁

Spot-on Bob. And Parr's a stubborn so-and-so who doesn't seem to handle criticism very well - and isn't prepared to give a clear reason for a seemingly arbitrary and frustrating rule.

Fortunately the series will still sell out and be the best in the uk

Let's see shall we? He might be in for a shock.

stubborn so-and-so who doesn't seem to handle criticism very well

I reckon their intention here is to go after the the riders insurance in the event of an accident. If there was a Llangollen type incident, the riders insuree will be held liable instead of the race organisers. As long as they can prove no negligence on their behalf the liability will sit with the rider. If they make sure they have insurance then they dont have to worry about either them or the rider being out of pocket (unless the insurers deny claims and say the rider was negligent etc)

But that would be 3rd party insurance, not the "i broke myself" cover that has been described. Which is why the whole thing is a farce unless UKGE can present a clear statement of the minimum cover required. Until then I'm in the "not entirely daft idea, but implementation barely thought through" camp.

You could always just self-insure of course. I'll happily cover myself for up to £x in the event of an ouchie

FYI for both QECP enduro in 2015 you will not need PI or a FF helmet. If you would like to do/use that is fine too. See you all in May then 😉

This sounds as dodgy as a dodgy thing. PA has never been a prerequisite for bike racing - any more than you need it for a gig just in case you enter the mosh pit! Anyway, hopefully someone can follow my badly worded thought processes here..

There are extremely strict FCA rules on how the insurance industry sells Personal Accident (and other options, of course). For instance when you buy car insurance the sales person will offer PA, but must make it clear that it's an option and in no way make judgements about how much the customer may need it. (eg the salesperson wouldn't be able to say anything like "You're a single, unemployed mum, just think about how useful £1000 would be if you broke your arm in a car crash." The company would risk a fine for that.) The company can not suggest that customers MUST take a product that isn't needed, as with banks and Payment Protection for instance.

I wonder if the insurance company being used as the "preferred" supplier by UKGE may be at risk of an FCA fine by being complicit in the suggestion that PA is a necessity for any form of bike racing. I guess that this may only be the case if UKGE are receiving a referral fee from the insco seeing as it is the organiser who is demanding the PA, not the insurer. Again, I wonder how the FCA would view the situation - I've never been involved in that side of insurance. I might ask around in work on Monday.

"Have you been mis-sold personal protection insurance? Were you told it was compulsory? Call now for no win no fee contract..."

Said in a really posh tv voice..

Jokers. So everyone who breaks their leg or whatever at ukge will get a payout from this pa insurance and the underwriters of said policy will seek to cover their costs from the events insurance resulting in more claims and increased costs.

Slightly confused by this.

I pay quite a bit of tax towards the NHS. I also *now* pay a reasonable amount through my work for private insurance (That doesn't mention competitive racing. I just get x tens of thousands of pounds of private treatment. I don't think what I was doing even matters). From what I can gather it costs my employer about £600 per year (and I just pay the tax on it). i.e. it isn't the cheapest of insurance, but I have no idea if it is valid for UKGE. They have no details.

From my recent derp accident (fractured neck, trees are terrible things :P), the private stuff isn't the stuff I care about. I was in A&E, had lots of scans (6 xrays, CT scan, MRI scan) and then was taken by ambulance to another hospital that was more geared up for dealing with my injury.

It was the Monday before I even considered the insurance (or rather at the time the regret that I didn't have it :P). But the scary stuff had been dealt with, I had a diagnosis and a doctor had told me the expected problems (i.e. no sugary required, will heal up fine etc). I had spoken to my boss and everything was fine.

Spoke to people at work later and what insurance doesn't cover (because it can't) is the A&E stuff at crazy times of night when an ambulance is needed to move someone. What is does cover is the after care - Which the NHS provides, but just not as fast.

It would have been great if they had described the rational behind this. From my experience I can't see why *for me* it is needed. I am happy with the level of risk and the level of cover I have.

Slightly disappointed.

Even if they have been recommended by UKGE and have a business agreement with them? It would be easier for them to avoid paying out would it not?

You could always just self-insure of course. I'll happily cover myself for up to £x in the event of an ouchie

You'd have to cover yourself against 3rd party claims too (you crash, die, and your bike tumbles down the hill and takes out a scout group including a footballing prodidgy who then sues for his future loss of earnings, which is why all these policies cover for huge sums like £5million.

I don't really see the problem, I pay ~£120 a year for sports insurance, covers about £4k of sailing kit and £5million 3rd party (and a few thousand if I lose any limbs, kill myself etc). No events offer individual inrurance, it's get your own policy or don't turn up.

You'd have to cover yourself against 3rd party claims too (you crash, die, and your bike tumbles down the hill and takes out a scout group including a footballing prodidgy who then sues for his future loss of earnings, which is why all these policies cover for huge sums like £5million.

No you wouldn't, that's covered anyway. This is purely personal accident and the proposed level of cover and terms appear to be shit.

[i]I don't really see the problem, I pay ~£120 a year for sports insurance, covers about £4k of sailing kit and £5million 3rd party (and a few thousand if I lose any limbs, kill myself etc). No events offer individual inrurance, it's get your own policy or don't turn up. [/i]

Yes, but the Organiser has to somehow review every riders policy to ensure that it fits their (minimum) criteria, and (to properly be compliant) really contact each insurance provider/broker to ensure it is a current policy (to cover against the 'buy and cancel' crowd).

Or force each rider to only buy from their preferred supplier...

no ones being forced to use their preferred insurer, theyve made that quite clear from the start.

the justifications and communications have been vague, but it was mentioned in Parrs interview on pinkbike b4 xmas and discussed on the facebook page at least once before xmas too

everyiones just getting all grumpy coz they feel their right to be uninsured and injure themselves has been invaded

everyiones just getting all grumpy coz they feel their right to be uninsured and injure themselves has been invaded

You put the case against quite well for someone who seems to support the rule.
😉

Good time for I pic of you face Kimbers 😉 #curryenduro

everyiones just getting all grumpy coz they feel their right to be uninsured and injure themselves has been invaded

The problem is that the minimum level of cover being required doesn't actually provide any benefits to the majority of individuals. I've been riding bikes for 20years and fell off plenty of times that have meant I couldn't go to work. However I've never broken a bone so the basic cover required by UKGE would have paid out nothing as its a fracture policy, not loss of earnings. How is that 'helping' me?

If it's intended to protect you from/against other riders in event of rider-rider collision then I'd understand, but I don't think thats the intention.

after breaking my hand at rd 5 of ukge last year Im all over the insurance thing

however I wouldnt have got any cash for my latest effort
[img] [/img]

no broken bones but was much more serious than the hand
although hand 4-6 weeks off work, face i had to have this morning off for stitches out, so maybe that makes sense

steve is going to have a statement about what the minimum level actually is this afternoon

dont get me wrong this should all have been given out with the original notification

I still think people are over reacting massively just because the info's been poorly disseminated, its still a brilliant series

http://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/2015-time-check-for-superenduro/

🙁
When there are no races what will we all do?....

Well after an exhaustive selection process I reckon kimbers is now the ukge pr/spokesman....

Do u think the ukge preferred insurer will give me a discount/ kickback 😉

Kimbers is just a fan boy!

[i]When there are no races what will we all do?.... [/i]

Go and build our own tracks and ride/race them, using Strava as the timekeeper? Always handy living in a rural location with lots of FC land 🙂

Has anybody seen if the statement on the insurance situation been posted yet?

It hasn't there was a FB post 8 hours ago from Steve saying he was waiting on one more piece of information.

Any update ?

No

??
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2015 UK GRAVITY ENDURO
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Home > News > UKGE Statement on Insurance
UKGE Statement on Insurance
Following the British Cycling decision to stop supporting Enduro in 2014, UKGE has subsequently taken a long, hard look at all things to do with safety, liability, insurance & everything Enduro.
In December, we chaired the first meeting of all Enduro organisers in the UK and 2015 will see us working together for the greater good of UK Enduro. We were aiming to set up a Federation for 2015 and like with BC’s membership, the plan was to incorporate insurance in with the membership. However, timescales meant that getting the Federation up and running for 2015 was not viable, but we will be putting a lot of time into moving things in the right direction. Our involvement with Bespoke financial is because they were the only insurance company willing to offer us advice on setting up the federation and to attend the meeting in December with the other organisers.
The aim of setting up a UK Federation for Enduro, is to standardise the quality and safety of all UK Enduro events, and to keep racing attainable for all levels. There are a lot of organisers jumping on the Enduro bandwagon and with such exponential growth of the sport, it is hard to ensure that standards are being maintained. This is maybe one of the reasons why SuperEnduro is taking a step back for 2015.
In 2011, when UKGE was born, the series was not at the forefront of MTB in the UK. However, it has seen significant growth and development on all levels, especially the riders and bikes. The past two seasons have seen such a massive rise in “Enduro” in the UK, we have truly struggled to understand British Cycling’s decision to drop the discipline. Particularly as UKGE were fully behind BC involvement in UK Enduro.
Before British Cycling’s decision not to endorse Enduro, UKGE had the safety umbrella of being insured by the UK’s governing body of cycling. British Cycling also gave us a set of safety guidelines to work to and this was primarily the reason behind the full-face helmet decision. Losing BC’s backing was a real set-back and this lack of support leaves organisers of Enduro in the UK in a vulnerable position. Please note that British Cycling membership and race licences are only valid at BC-sanctioned events. This means that the insurance on your BC membership is null and void for all Enduro events in the UK from 2015 onwards.
HAD British Cycling endorsed Enduro in the UK, then the plan was to start using the National ranking points system that is currently employed in Downhill and Cross Country. This would have meant we would have required every rider taking part in a UKGE event to have had Gold membership and a BC Race Licence, at a cost of £109 per year. Gold membership also offers a level of personal accident insurance, as we are currently asking our racers to take out.
At UKGE, we have always made safety our utmost priority. Because of this and the lack of a governing body, we feel personal accident insurance offers both the riders and us as organisers a level of protection for our sport, MTB Enduro. “Bespoke financial” are providing all PLI/event insurance for UKGE in 2015. We have also chosen them as our preferred supplier for your personal accident insurance as they have not only helped us with the Federation, but put together a package that we think will be the most cost-effective for you, the rider.
An annual package starts at £96 (£8/month) and not only covers you for racing your mountain bike Worldwide, but also covers you 24/7, 365 days a year, doing any activity and even at work! The Bespoke policy document personal accident cover is attached below to download. This is the minimum level of cover we require, but you are welcome to increase the level of cover if desired. Public Liability Insurance is part of the permissions process that UKGE have to adhere to before putting events on, therefore riders do not require individual liability insurance to race.
Bespoke Financial will provide us with the names of all riders who have cover with them, prior to any of our races. This enables race sign-on to be as fast and efficient as possible. For those racers with existing personal insurance cover with other companies, we will need proof that you are covered for racing and that your policy is in date. This will be needed for online race entry AND to be brought to sign-on. No proof, no race I’m afraid.
For the Under 18 category, insurance cover will not be a requirement of entry.
We asked both Helen Gaskell and James Green to be our “rider reps” because they have both attended every UKGE race since the start in 2011, and were experienced downhill racers before starting Enduro. We asked Helen to become our female representative before we started looking at our insurance options, but she has been helping us with negotiations with regard to the personal accident insurance.
If you want the continuation of the series and the further development of Enduro in the UK, then this is a necessity of the evolution.
Some have asked for more detail on the Life and Fracture Cover policy documents, you can download them below if you want to read them in full.
Fracture Cover PDF
Life Cover Policy PDF
Steve Parr – Race Director

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This would have meant we would have required every rider taking part in a UKGE event to have had Gold membership and a BC Race Licence, at a cost of £109 per year. Gold membership also offers a level of personal accident insurance, as we are currently asking our racers to take out.

Except you don't need a BC Gold licence, Silver is fine.

I'm still very "meh" on the whole thing. Don't get it. Gorrick events entirely eschew BC regs, sanctioning, insurance etc, they're immensely successful and you don't need any additional cover.

Yep, although forcing gold on everyone is consistent with forcing PA insurance on everyone it's not reqd, I can race on the road with silver which is far far moar dangerous than ENDURO. Still doesn't actually explain his reasoning for forcing everyone to get insured or how in fact this reduces the chances of UKGE getting sued?

still doesn't explain why they want you to take out personal insurance since that doesn't affect them in the running of the event.

I'd need to check, but i'm 99% sure i've never needed a Gold licence to race the BDS in the past, even as a proper BC sanctioned event.

Looks like i'll be 'buying' a policy to enter, then cancelling it.

I thought u needed gold to race DH , which is where BC and possibly UCI?? categorise enduro

looks like parr was just setting up the enduro federation with the same model

edit

BC requires silver £41 or gold £70(which comes with insurance) + race licence at £36

you can buy a single day license for road and track only
http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/membership/article/mem-st-Racing-Licence-Prices-0-Need-a-Racing-Licence--0

May have been covered (I struggle with long sentences), but has anyone approached CTC to find out about event/race insurance cover?

kimbers is Steve Parr and I claim my £5.

(No interest in UKGE, especially now. If I do an Enduro again it'll be a reasonably price Scottish one that has reasonable rules and doesn't expect me to take out unnecessary insurance and allows me to wear the helmet I deem to be most suitable)

still doesn't explain why they want you to take out personal insurance since that doesn't affect them in the running of the event

I'm guessing their logic is if a rider gets a payout from their own PA cover, he won't come after UKGE with a claim.

munrobiker - Member
kimbers is Steve Parr and I claim my £5.

see above pic- Im far more handsome 😉

BoardinBob - Member

I'm guessing their logic is if a rider gets a payout from their own PA cover, he won't come after UKGE with a claim

that's why the organisers have liability insurance

Nope, can't see any requirement on BC website about needing a Gold membership to race DH and I've clicked through as far as I dare to enter Moelfre BDS too.

Enter the BDS
There are three simple steps to racing British Cyclings National Downhill MTB Series you must first purchase membership directly from British Cycling in either [b]Silver[/b] or Gold, this allows you to purchase a ‘Full Race Licence':

From here: [url= http://www.britishdownhillseries.co.uk/enter-bds/ ]BDS Website[/url]

No wonder BC pulled out of Enduro if the spoke person can't get his rather basic but very important facts straight.

Nope, can't see any requirement on BC website about needing a Gold membership to race DH and I've clicked through as far as I dare to enter Moelfre BDS too.

Enter the BDS
There are three simple steps to racing British Cyclings National Downhill MTB Series you must first purchase membership directly from British Cycling in either Silver or Gold, this allows you to purchase a ‘Full Race Licence':

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/membership

When asked if you are a member of a club please pop down ‘British Downhill Series’ to help ensure we have a bigger voice within British Cycling.

The second step is to purchase a ‘Full Race’ licence directly from British Cycling. You can renew this from Wednesday December the 3rd 2014 either online as below or by phone 0161 274 2010.

http://www.britishdownhillseries.co.uk/enter-bds/