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...they're now making everyone take out a personal insurance policy with their selected insurer. No insurance, no race!
It's almost as though they want no competitors!
http://www.ukgravityenduro.com/entries-2015-ukge-personal-insurance-2/
I take it this is because BC have pulled out?
I suppose it makes sense for a season, maybe not so much for individual races
they're now making everyone take out a personal insurance policy with their selected insurer. No insurance, no race!
No they're not.
Bob, you need insurance but not with them... It is just a badly worded advert and pitch in one...
"you must provide us with the name of your insurance provider and the policy number at the time you enter."
apparently its helen gaskells insurance co?
Following BC's decision something like this was inevitable.
I don't read it has having to have a policy with their selected insurer though - it says 'preferred', and then says when entering you'll have to provide the name of your insurance provider, which implies you have a choice?
Edit - too slow!
I've asked them if there will be any minimum requirements for alternative providers.
the company we have chosen as our preferred supplier is Bespoke Financial Ltd contact them now using the form below and they will call you with a quote.”
but then read
As you must provide us with the name of your insurance provider and the policy number at the time you enter. - See more at: http://www.ukgravityenduro.com/entries-2015-ukge-personal-insurance-2/#sthash.RoIJfDD5.dpuf
any will do, they just have their preferred..
so will other enduro events ask you to take out insurance too?
Scott?
No, they are making you get some insurance, that might be a pain (but I think understandable in what isn't a risk free sport). Get it with you you like as long as you tell them, at least, that's what they have said on that link you posted...
Edit, boy I type slowly 🙂
No they're not.
It reads that way.
Steve Parr said. “We now have a chance to shape the discipline in the UK, an opportunity I’m pretty sure none of us will see ever again. UKGE has introduced mandatory “full face” helmets on stages and the next step is every rider must have personal insurance.? This is not a decision we have taken without great thought for you the racers, [b]the company we have chosen as our preferred supplier is Bespoke Financial Ltd contact them now using the form below and they will call you with a quote.[/b]”
The question is whether or not Bespoke are in insurer or broker. Looks like they're a broker. Either way it's a load of crap.
http://www.bespokefinancialnewcastle.co.uk/
No mention of what happens if you already have insurance in place. is someone at UKGE going to go through every policy a competitor has and make sure it meets their standards?
they are making you get some insurance
Insurance for what exactly?
3rd party liability?
Personal accident?
Life?
AD&D?
TI?
Professional sports?
Insurance for what exactly?
My thoughts exactly. Vague insurance is vague.
This was mentioned in an interview on Pinkbike recently http://www.pinkbike.com/news/steve-parr-interview.html
PB: Can you expand on what you said about riders having to take their own insurance?UKGE: We are currently talking with numerous insurance companies about personal insurance. What a lot of people don't realise is that they think they are insured with BC, but its only Public Liability which is 3rd party, the riders will get nothing if they are involved in an accident. Its only a third party that will receive money, not many people actually realise that. Until you get a race license then you have a bit more insurance. But what we are talking about is that if you actually want to come and race one of our UK Gravity Enduro events next year you will have to take out personal insurance. We will provide a contact and a price, which should be very competitive
PB: So insurance to cover personal injury, damage to your equipment?
UKGE: Yeah Public liability, loss of earnings and whatever they need to get back right, we're currently looking into that.
the megavalanche make you take out insurance for the race too, i suppose its not that different
Classic UKGE deleting comments they don't like on their facebook page.
They're now saying a "gold" BC licence will cover you, which seems bizarre as BC are saying they will no longer insure Enduro and they've told all their commissaires not to marshall any enduro events (as BC representatives)
Farcical.
The post BC era is looking a bit messy... I'm a little puzzled still as to why they pulled out given how popular Enduro seems to be becoming, unless it was exactly that and they didn't like the insurance implications.
Totally off top of head, but is this likely more to do with a requirement of the event insurers UKGE have ended up with in lieu of BC rather than something UKGE particularly wanted to do?
Doesn't "preferred" also mean "gives us the biggest cut"?
Just got off the phone to BC they say you're not covered with gold membership as it is no longer a BC event. However if you go abroad and it is sanctioned by their governing body you are covered. So you can compete in Ireland and be covered but not here.
So that's as clear as mud then? Wonder if my mtb Oz covers me if I come back...
Fk it, race the PMBA series where full facers and insurance isn't compulsory.
If one race series can manage without all that stuff, why can't UKGE?
Doesn't "preferred" also mean "gives us the biggest cut"?
Yes, but it means just that. They prefer you to use that supplier, but you're free to use another one, if you know what you're getting cover for!
PB: So insurance to cover personal injury, damage to your equipment?UKGE: Yeah Public liability, loss of earnings and whatever they need to get back right, we're currently looking into that.
But public liability is what you do have through BC, bit weird making people have mandatory insurance for if they break themselves or trash kit.
Whats wrong with a disclaimer
An inconvenience too far
I'm out
Yes, but it means just that. They prefer you to use that supplier, but you're free to use another one, if you know what you're getting cover for!
And this be the problem, you need to know what the insurance needs to cover, which ones the event will accept etc. If they don't check then just tick yes on the entry form and run off if you hit anyone.
Insurance for what exactly?3rd party liability?
Personal accident?
Life?
AD&D?
TI?
Professional sports?
They don't actually appear to have clarified this. Which is brilliant.
The standard response is "speak to our preferred insurer blah blah blah".
Beginning to thing f*ck it, for the few UKGE races I can actually do this year.
It's the impression I have got talking to a few mates when I've been back.
The post BC era is looking a bit messy... I'm a little puzzled still as to why they pulled out given how popular Enduro seems to be becoming, unless it was exactly that and they didn't like the insurance implications.
From what I can gather a major part of the problem was BC doesn't have the infrastructure to insure all the events are run safely, too many events too soon! BC couldn't cope which then leaves them wide open to insurance claims a big problem for BC at the moment.
Yeah Public liability, loss of earnings and whatever they need to get back right, we're currently looking into that.
So you need insurance, but not really sure what type. BC insurance isn't enough, then it is and now it's not again.
I don't find the approach used by UKGE particularly inspiring. It's seemingly a bit dictatorial and arrogant, the events are expensive and organisation vague.
I can't help but think they won't survive, they didn't get the national bit of the EWS and there is far more choice now than there was when they were the happening thing.
here is the answer to my question;
Hi Phil,
Although Bespoke Insurance is our preferred provider, you can source your insurance elsewhere we are not tying you in to anything. Any insurance will need to cover you for taking part in competitive races. You will need to prove to us (send us copies of your certificate of insurance) that you adequately covered and that your cover is in place across any races dates that you plan to enter.We are able to liaise with Bespoke Financial to check this information hence they are our preferred supplier.
Although some are seeing this as an issue, I'm fine with it. I always take out an insurance policy anyway, and getting one that covers racing or even timed events is not easy, so having a broker who specialises in this type of cover might be a blessing.
I've asked for a quote, so that will be the acid test I guess.
Phil
This is not an actual fact or anything - but the impression I have is that BC collectively see Enduro as "Downhill with no protective equipment, no paramedics and only 3 marshals per track" and after the sad death of a spectator at a DH race last year (and a road motor rally in Scotland) it was all just a risk too far for them.
It would be hopeless trying to run an Enduro like 5 DH races in a row.
Things will settle down, loads of organisers have been running Enduro sans BC since the start (Tweedlove, half the SES rounds last year) so it isn't impossible.
Landowners will be adding to the risk aversion too, FCS being a likely contender on that front.
(all my opinion of course - I am retired from event organising now so can say what I like !)
I was interested in some of the UKGE rounds but this has put a stop to that.
So Steve's just posted on fb that you're already covered for 3rd party insurance - so what on earth do I need cover for? Preempting the demise of public healthcare?
after the sad death of a spectator at a DH race last year (and a road motor rally in Scotland) it was all just a risk too far for them.
I can't see how a death at a DH race and at a rally has any impact on enduro. It's a bit like saying there was a death at a tennis match so we're no longer going to insure golf.
I reckon the truth is there are too many independents running enduros and BC's influence was limited so they basically did the equivalent of saying "it's my ball and I'm taking it home with me"
. Any insurance will need to cover you for taking part in competitive races. You will need to prove to us (send us copies of your certificate of insurance) that you adequately covered and that your cover is in place across any races dates that you plan to enter.
Cover? For what exactly. Cover for running over bunnies or people, how much liability or what circumstances. Does it need to match the terms of their insurance or just some of them?
I always take out an insurance policy anyway, and getting one that covers racing or even timed events is not easy, so having a broker who specialises in this type of cover might be a blessing.
What for? As is being said, a BC licence covers you for 3rd party insurance, which is what I can see them being very twitchy about. Surely we're all big and ugly enough to sign a waiver admonishing them of any responsibility if we crash!
I'd have been in over my head anyway, but certainly not doing a UKGE now!
Quite a few folk on FB jumping to their defense, despite clearly not knowing any more than anyone here 🙂
Awaits arrival of Mr parr in the thread.
I think they're trying to do something good in making sure riders are covered for the worst, but the implementation is poor. My original comment on the facebook thread that they deleted pointed out that X hundred racers buying individual policies will cost far, far more in total than if they negotiated a group plan for all entrants.
[i]I can't see how a death at a DH race and at a rally has any impact on enduro. It's a bit like saying there was a death at a tennis match so we're no longer going to insure golf.[/i]
Can't you?
The Jim Clark 'accident' and fall-out will I think impact many sports that rely on public (ie roads, tracks) facilities, especially in Scotland. I'm sure the Forestry Commission are taking an interest as it is perfectly acceptable that they understand the 'risks' to their business.
Can't you?
No I can't, and I work in insurance for a living. Two deaths in different events, but BC stop insuring enduro yet continue to insure DH, and I'm sure rally events will continue to be insured by whoever does that.
like the helmet rule, UKGE will be the only race organiser in the UK that are making PI compulsory*. *unless anyone else changes there mind.kimbers - Memberso will other enduro events ask you to take out insurance too?
Scott?
I may be completely wrong here but it doesn't seem to hinder anyone else...
If I'm the insurance/compo seeking sort and I go to an organised event, I have an accident, I'm/a spectator is injured, I out the spectator is going to claim on the events insurance, whether I have my own or not.
Why would having my own insurance change that? Yes it's an inherently dangerous activity but I don't believe they can in any way indemnify them selves against personal injury from a legal stand point and disclaimers are worth less than the ink they're signed with.
Insurance is risk based, at this point somebody higher up than boardin bob has gone risk, outdoors, racing, stuff and put 2+2=9 on the form. Couple this with the Llangollen incident and you can see what's going on. We do t understand but reckon it's like this without as many safeguards (I remember Sif Pattons we need Marshalls posts) so hence it's hard to insure. If you want to make insurance mandatory make sure that you have the most competitive policy on offer and you tell people what they need to do as an alternative.
Boardinbob, if you work at the business end of insurance you'll be well placed to shoot me down but, my impression is, these days if you can't categorically prove you couldn't have removed the risk then you'll get no win no fee lawyers chasing you for anything with a chance of significant payout.
If enduro has half the marshals of Dh and twice the distance surely there is a significant risk the the organisers could reduce, making it costly enough to defend against a claim that no one will, they'll just settle.
Death is a big chunk of a payout for an insurance company, especially a spectator's (who won't have insurance) and they'll have less chance of defeating a claim at an enduro with less safety checks in place. And as most of the enduroists keep telling us an enduro is downhill with transitions so is just as much risk per mile as full Dh
If enduro has half the marshals of Dh
That would be a significant improvement
like the helmet rule, UKGE will be the only race organiser in the UK that are making PI compulsory
FWIW, PI means Professional Indemnity in insurance circles, I assume what's being required is PA, or Personal Accident insurance, as 3rd party is already covered. This is confusing enough already, without folk thinking they need PI insurance!
This is confusing enough already, without folk thinking they need PI insurance!
What about the pros?
They have the same need as any for liability insurance, but it's the mechanics that would potentially need PI insurance - their mistake could injure a rider.
it's the mechanics that would potentially need PI insurance - their mistake could injure a rider.
So if I do my own wrenching I need PI?
Sorry no need for that beyond the fact I couldn't resist
Enduro was ment to be a racing format based on the type of riding we all do for fun , it was meant to be accessible for people who fancied racing but felt full on downhill and xc were a bit much . I understand ukge is selling itself as the national series and difficulty levels and requirements will reflect that but I hope they don't forget what made enduro appealing in the first place
Death is a big chunk of a payout for an insurance company
Life insurance is cheap to buy and MASSIVELY profitable for insurers.
Read into that what you will.
UKGE: Yeah Public liability, loss of earnings and whatever they need to get back right, we're currently looking into that.
Sounds like "yeah, some insurance, don't know what really, but definitely insurance. Insurance is good".
Completely clueless. Let's just think about income protection - how are they going to check "whatever they need to get back right"? I rock up at an event with insurance that covers, say, £15K of income in the event of critical injury. Without knowing whether I'm a single student with no dependants, a lottery winner with more money in the bank than I could ever possibly spend, or a married person with loads of kids, a huge salary and a mortgage to match, how are they going to assess whether I'm "adequately covered"? They can't. They're making this up as they go along.
here is the answer to my question;Hi Phil,
Although Bespoke Insurance is our preferred provider, you can source your insurance elsewhere we are not tying you in to anything. Any insurance will need to cover you for taking part in competitive races. You will need to prove to us (send us copies of your certificate of insurance) that you adequately covered
That is only an answer to your question if your question didn't seek any further information. "insurance...for taking part in competitive races" - such as? "adequately covered" - adequate, defined how? As I said, they're making this up as they go along.
Insurance is a personal choice. If someone chooses not to insure themselves or their livelihood, it's got nothing to do with UKGE. They're perfectly entitled to deny entry to anyone who's not insured, but it's a bizarre stance particularly when there are zero guidelines around what insurance is actually needed.
ukge is selling itself as the national series
Does anyone else think it is?
Life insurance maybe cheap bob, but if I'm not mistaken it'll be public liability that is looking to payout if a spectator or competitor is injured or killed.
It is the national series and they are great races. This is simple like the full face rule, if you don't like it look else where. There is loads of choice!wrecker - Memberukge is selling itself as the national series
Does anyone else think it is?
Life insurance maybe cheap bob, but if I'm not mistaken it'll be public liability that is looking to payout if a spectator or competitor is injured or killed
They've stated on FB that 3rd party liability is included already in the race entrance, so anything they're making competitors buy will be personal insurance.
Life insurance maybe cheap bob, but if I'm not mistaken it'll be public liability that is looking to payout if a spectator or competitor is injured or killed.
You've got that anyway, this is on top of that.
Edit: too slow!
Sorry bob, misdirected there, my point as for cost & public liability was to do with your not understanding what a death at a Dh race has to do with enduro, not what sort of insurance riders would require.
Rather, that the cost of that insurance likely went through the roof when the worst actually happened rather than being a slight possiblity. Hence Bc no longer wanting to do it.
edlong - there was further information
Please contact our preferred insurance supplier Bespoke Financial, who will detail the level of cover, you can then go and see if you can get this elsewhere if you prefer.
So as I understand it there is a defined level of cover (as offered by Bespoke)that any alternative will have to match.
I have asked them for a quote, so I guess when that turns up things will be a little clearer (maybe!)
Matthew January 8, 2015
Hi Mark,
You need personal accident cover that covers you whilst taking part in a competitive (mtb) race. Whilst the merits of this could be discussed at length it is a requirement of your entry. So if you do not wish to purchase it then you will not be able to take part in our events.
- See more at: http://www.ukgravityenduro.com/entries-2015-ukge-personal-insurance-2/#.dpuf
Doesn't specify what kind if insurance, to be pedantic. So on the face of it the fact I have home insurance would qualify me.
ah but home insurance with the "right" cover. Actually, pet insurance might be better.....
Its a serious point, because the reason they are requesting insurance is to cover their backside, yet if it went to court obviously my home insurance wouldn't be interested, thus their backside isn't actually covered.
Hi Mark,
You need personal accident cover that covers you whilst taking part in a competitive (mtb) race. Whilst the merits of this could be discussed at length it is a requirement of your entry. So if you do not wish to purchase it then you will not be able to take part in our events.
End of story.
If you don't want to purchase cover...you don't race. Its their event
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Rather, that the cost of that insurance likely went through the roof when the worst actually happened rather than being a slight possiblity. Hence Bc no longer wanting to do it.
So again, the death occured at a DH race, yet they stop sponsoring enduro?
it reeks of money/ power/ influence rather than any real concerns over risk management.
Enduro was ment to be a racing format based on the type of riding we all do for fun , it was meant to be accessible for people who fancied racing but felt full on downhill and xc were a bit much . I understand ukge is selling itself as the national series and difficulty levels and requirements will reflect that but I hope they don't forget what made enduro appealing in the first place
I agree with this but I think the shark may have been jumped
Its a serious point, because the reason they are requesting insurance is to cover their backside, yet if it went to court obviously my home insurance wouldn't be interested, thus their backside isn't actually covered.
Are they going to have some commissaire at every race going over everyone's home insurance policy that they're using as "insurance" to check the T&C's for exclusions and sums insured? 😆
I don't really have any skin in this game, as not likely to enter any of the series, but you would think they would have learned a bit about getting communication right after all the discussions that kicked off around the helmet rule.
How hard can it be to state the minimum requirements (arguments about NHS cover etc. notwithstanding) so people can easily check existing policies. Why should I have to phone their broker so that I can cross reference my existing annual policy that covers mountain bike racing.
Tinfoil hat mode : I wonder if Bespoke insure the events as well. Nice way to offset the insurance bill 🙂
Fortunately I'm insured against unexpected insurance requirements.
Now, the motorbike enduro outfit I ride with sometimes require the purchase of "day licences" to race if you're not a member - it's an insurance thing, and they cost £3. So this is the way a series such as GE should end up going, join the club/series and get a licence for the year or bung them a few quid per race.
Oh, fuel to the fire - you sometimes see people riding in MC enduros in open face lids. (Usually on trials bikes.)
I can't find anything about Bespoke financial on t'internet. Anyone else any wiser? I'd like my cynicism to be justified.
Sounds a crap way of doing things, why not make some kind of license compulsory if they want to go down the insurance route.
I don't blame BC from ridding themselves of these jokers.
This lot?
UKGE say insurance starting from £2 a week? Which seems a really odd way of quoting insurance for specific events.
I can't find anything about Bespoke financial on t'internet. Anyone else any wiser? I'd like my cynicism to be justified.
You have to google "bespoke financial services Newcastle" or something similar. Its a trading name of some other company
Which seems a really odd way of quoting insurance for specific events.
Sounds a lot better than £104 a year. That's almost as much as my car insurance!
So again, the death occured at a DH race, yet they stop sponsoring enduro?
it reeks of money/ power/ influence rather than any real concerns over risk management.
To me sounds less to do with any of those things and more to do with, we had this horrible accident, we can't stop it but we can toughen up on standards, enduro doesn't adhere to the existing Dh ones which is the discipline is most like, so it's an accident waiting to happen and we're not going to play." nothing at all to stop you running five concurrent Dh races with xc races in between, getting Bc to insure those individual events, and it being an enduro except your enduro wouldn't get near their requirements for insurance
It would be interesting to know how the additional dh requirements would actually help. I don't really see how extra marshalls could stop a rider crashing into the crowds and killing someone
Boardinbob - I am not proposing that the death at the DH race led directly to BC not insuring Enduro any more, I am saying it is part of a picture of things that likely hardened minds to a worst case scenario, and how much responsibility for what happens at an event rests with them.
Interestingly, the Scottish Government Review of Motor Sport Safety, called as a result of the Jim Clark rally deaths has just reported. Among other things, they have recommended marshals are trained and certified prior to taking up their posts.
(and yes Bob, I know that Car Rallying isn't Enduro, but just go with me, what happens in one sport will influence the views of Police, LA H&S bods etc, FCS, all the folk who have a say in how events are run)
So things like double taping sections, exclusion zones etc - these realistically only work with marshal's in place to enforce them.
The death at Llangollen was a tragic accident and will impact on all cycle sport stuff in the uk.
Parr in an interview was suggesting that enduro is nearer xc than dh - the ones I've done certainly aren't.
BC have looked at all the risks after the incident and under their guides enduro would be a gravity sport and would need to fit in to the rules of that e.g. line of sight between marshal, full taping etc. That's not practical for enduro and there aren't enough commissaires in the UK for dh races let alone all the extra enduro stuff.
The issue with marshals is that you could be lying dead/crippled/having a strop somewhere on stage and no one will be any the wiser.
Now if you want to start a conspiracy...... Helen Gaskell was made rider rep yesterday, today the company she works for is the go to place for enderpo insurance