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The problem isn’t integrating into traffic, it’s idiots riding ebikes on shared paths and hitting pedestrians.
Where do people spend most of their timing riding? On normal roads or shared paths? This - possibly entirely hypothetical - problem of cyclists hitting people at 20mph because they can't handle the extra 4.5 mph of POWAH is a weird distraction.
I’d been thinking that having speed limits and/or tests/mandatory training for higher speed restriction e-bikes might be a way to resolve some issues, but all those paths lead to bikes being licensed, which would be bad for all concerned.
Bad for all concerned How exactly?
I'm concerned and I don't think it would be bad for me...
If you want to use a more powerful vehicle on the roads then the increased risk level for both the user and the wider public kind of means operator training, licencing and vehicle inspection/registration all make good sense, and the mechanisms for implementing all of that already exist...
It seems more like you want a motorbike of whatever power rating/fuel type but don't fancy the extra faff of taking a test/registering the bike...
Or more succinctly "Gimmie some more Rights without the corresponding responsibilities!"...
Nah...
I’ll try it another way, as I don’t really disagree with those criticising my suggestion.
Limit cars to the same as e-bikes. It makes the e-bike the far faster, more efficient, and safer (in terms of those the vehicle hits anyway) choice in town.
I average about 14mph on a muscle bike across York including stopping at lights etc. My moving average is more like 18mph. At those speeds riding on the road makes more sense. Unify speed limits / speed limiters and it would be a no brainer. Cycle paths wouldn’t really be needed.
Not on a shared path, cycle path or off road. There are enough dicks about without giving them more speed.
I hear you, but until cars, which are by faaaaar the greater threat overall, are limited in this way or controlled by average cameras etc I find it hard to be in support of the current low limitations on bikes or scooters. We trust people to be sensible and self-regulate in a tonne and a half of car with 100+bhp, but not an a 20kg bike? Yeah ok.. but of course driver behaviour is the argument for the low limitations you're making, I get that.
15mph is fast enough to injure someone as it is, idiots will be idiots and some of the worst offenders I see are the keen cyclist on a road bike or mtb. There's already shared path issues but it's rare from what I see (I walk on a town bypass sustrans path about 3-5 miles a week).
In this case it's simply making the product a bit less useful or appealing to many potential users in a time when we need more people using e-bikes for transport.
It's also highlighting the poor infrastructure and poor shared path culture we have in the UK. I'd rather we backed change there rather than limiting e-bikes the way we do. But to be clear I don't want surrons everywhere either - a 20mph epac limit seems useful, that's all.
Plus as has been pointed out we don't have much of a cycle path network here as it is and most e-bikes spend most of their time on the road. As we all know, moving at a reasonable pace in urban traffic leads to fewer overtakes and is potentially (no source / data) safer, or at least less stressful. 20mph urban speed limit makes a 20mph e-bike seem reasonable, but if it doesn't change what we have is ok - this isn't a make or break thing imo.
We trust people to be sensible and self-regulate in a tonne and a half of car with 100+bhp, but not an a 20kg bike?
We dont. We require them to get a licence demonstrating basic skill and to drive with insurance and have the vehicle somewhat roadworthy (obv enforcement of these vary as does the effectiveness).
Plus as has been pointed out we don’t have much of a cycle path network here as it is and most e-bikes spend most of their time on the road.
Then why not keep the fast ones there? Dont mess around with 20 but get some type approved up to 30 either directly under moped laws or a variant of them with a half day/day cbt to get qualified.
It’s also highlighting the poor infrastructure and poor shared path culture we have in the UK. I’d rather we backed change there rather than limiting e-bikes the way we do. But to be clear I don’t want surrons everywhere either – a 20mph epac limit seems useful, that’s all.
Yep that poor infrastructure and shared use paths are precisely the reason the retain the current arrangement (IMO), it's also worth noting that 15mph is not a 'Limit' as it keeps being called, it's a maximum level of assistance.
Where eeeb riders come into contact with pedestrians I can't see much benefit to adding more potential speed. Eeeb riders can still do 20 once they get on a road but they need to rustle up the watts to get above 15mph for themselves...
As for those talking about slowing down cars, absolutely agree, I am very keen on Urban 20 limits (I live in such an area) controlling vehicle speeds in the areas where the greatest potential for speed differentials and collisions exist makes total sense, but cars don't generally mix with pedestrians at such close quarters, so frequently. Implementing some sort of variable assistance controls for road Vs cycle lane/shared use paths isn't really practical, when people start talking about geo-fencing e-Bikes you know they're reaching.
Not that any of this matters, I see the existing rules flouted on a daily basis, and enforcement is (as ever) nonexistent. Being realistic if you want to chip your Levo or add a twist 'n' go throttle I very much doubt you'll see any real challenges (just internet finger Waggers like me), it's only going to be a (legal) problem if/when you break rule 1 and **** a pedestrian to death... Your choice.
We dont. We require them to get a licence demonstrating basic skill and to drive with insurance and have the vehicle somewhat roadworthy (obv enforcement of these vary as does the effectiveness).
The point is we have laws and some methods of enforcement but it's patchy / weak so speed limits (road safety-wise) are often about drivers behaving not mechanical speed limitations. They often don't behave which I realise makes a case for limiting ebikes.. Part of this is about risk and potential damage but that's into the weeds.
As far as the speed differential on a shared path goes, 15mph to 20mph won't matter. Some people are idiots on any bike. Either limit level needs rider regulation and sense to manage on a shared path, both imo are within reasonable limitation, 20mph is just more practical in some places.
Then why not keep the fast ones there? Dont mess around with 20 but get some type approved up to 30 either directly under moped laws or a variant of them with a half day/day cbt to get qualified.
You can already have a type approved 28mph limit speed pedelec and e-mopeds that can't use bike paths but they need things that reduce ease of access/use. In all this I just want to see more people seeing epacs as a transport option, something a family can share use of etc.
fwiw here to clarify what + where, I don't care about E-MTBs etc and I'd support anything that's clearly designed as an off-road bike staying at current 15mph limit. imo a revision of the limit from 15mph to 20mph might make hybrid type transport epacs more useful or a better transport experience in places w/o any need to change what an epac is otherwise. Some disagree. In reality it won't change any time soon if at all.
Perhaps the speed increase comes with a power limit drop to regulate how long that speed can be held. Or they're configured so that the extra 5mph needs a reasonable percentage more input from the rider so that the average speed isn't increased in many cases. Like a 5mph range of softer more gradual cut-off so the added speed is something any rider can access. Many riders just don't have the power to take an epac past the cut off up to 20mph on the road (I'm talking transport epacs here, mainly ridden by a non-enthusiast) but they will find the added speed makes some roads feel safer or that they 'take a place' more easily.
As far as the speed differential on a shared path goes, 15mph to 20mph won’t matter.
Thats not what is actually the case. Look at the Netherlands experience. even 15 mph creates too big a speed differntial
You guys may think you are riding gods and you cause no issues. The reality is that it needs to be done for the lowest common denominator
What you are arguing for is to create a new class for the UK. We could call it speed pedelecs. Insurance and PPE required.
From what I have seen people on any kind of bike contain a representive number of dicks. It's likely they will also drive like a dick.
Giving them more powered speed is not sensible. A lot of the newer cycle lanes in urban areas are narrow enough that passing another bike requires cooperation.
They have narrow crowded pavements and sometimes cars parked in bays next to them. Speed on a bike of any sort needs to be sensible. In this environment 20 mph on a ebike would be stupid.
There are enough problems with delivery bikes scooters and wheels without adding extra problems.
On the road in these areas cars rarely achieve 20 mph.
and as I said above - the temptation to ride like a dick on an ebike is increased hugely compared to a normal bike. Its just too easy to ride like a dick. I have to consciously restrain myself from doing so
The reality is that it needs to be done for the lowest common denominator
So enforced speed limits on all shared paths?
I would like to see sense prevailing.
Most people can ride safely.
The things people need to understand that a busy commute is not the place to train or improve your Strava time.
It's about all street users cooperating to travel safely and not make other street users feel threatened.
Thats not what is actually the case. Look at the Netherlands experience. even 15 mph creates too big a speed differntial
You guys may think you are riding gods and you cause no issues. The reality is that it needs to be done for the lowest common denominator
I said dicks will be dicks whether it's at 15 or 20, it's often not only about speed but closeness, lack of bell/warnings etc too, not only speed related. Pass me in your car at 50+ right on the other side of the road and all's fine, or at very low speed when I know you're there if it's a bit close, etc.
But in general, a Q of mechanical limitations to resolve lowest-level user idiocy without reducing the item to less useful or useless for the majority who aren't idiots? There's reasonable safe design and there's "Here's the safest bike we could make - " ..and there's a brick on the table. 15 vs 20mph isn't in that area, it's a grey area point I'd say, it's subjective whether it's a good thing either way. It's interesting from a design/spec/use pov anyway.
What you are arguing for is to create a new class for the UK.
Could that be.. no.. maybe.. a.. shhhh.. a brexit benefit? : ) It does feel like something that UK traffic conditions make more relevant.
I'm just saying that I would support raising the epac class limit to 20mph and would also support that only applying to a type of epac that isn't clearly a performance MTB, like we have EN ISO tests for MTBs that are different for City And Trekking bikes. Any negatives to going 5mph faster I've read here so far are already possible from non-e bikes and there's no practical solution for that, whatever the bike, aside from 'don't be a dick'.
On the flip side, would that added 5mph make a demonstrable difference to epac use levels or rider safety? I don't know, there's no data on that I know of. My hunch is it could aid sales appeal and take-up here, helping the perception of being part of traffic for non-enthusiast type riders, since that's one of the main barriers. Make or break? No probably not.
I haven’t read all the posts (so sorry if I’m repeating stuff)… but my opinion is that the current limits work and should stay. E-bikes mix well with other bikes on cycle paths, they still inspire you to pedal (a 20mph cut out would probably mean you rarely exceed the limit), are still faster than a normal bike when loaded on hilly commutes and any increase in speed will be have as many downsides are it has pluses.
Illegal e-bikes are a potential source of anti cycling friction and outrage; so although I’m not usually one for rules in this case I would support enforcement. But I feel that there should first be more education on the rules and the food delivery companies should be made to ensure they aren’t enabling non legal bike use. They could easily help their riders to obtain and use legal bikes… at the moment they are freeloading on riders who are braking the law and taking risks.
I don't trust ebikers I have seen a significant amount of idiot riding.
I don’t trust ebikers I have seen a significant amount of idiot riding.
You could say that about roadies, commuters, etc, should they all be banned from shared paths due to this, or have mechanical limits on all bikes to a 'safe' speed limit?
This naysayers in this thread seem to think that ebikers are all unskilled people who will be using their ebike in turbo mode and at 20mph all the time, i've rarely seen that on legal ebikes, yes i've seen muppets on their chipped bikes flying along, or the surron brigade, i don't think there's been any proof shown that ebikers have more pedestrian accidents either, a quick check on youtube and the likes doesn't show any on the first few pages, just a lot of commuters hitting pedestrians on road bikes or hybrids.
Also, this is similar to my argument in favour of escooters. <br />private escooters and various means of exceeding 15mph on an e-bike have something in common, their current illegality and as such attract a certain type of user. (And this will be on a sliding scale of increased illegality corresponding with increased dickishness and incompetence.)
Make it legal and more people will have them, and on average quality of rider will improve.
the temptation to ride like a dick on an ebike is increased hugely compared to a normal bike. Its just too easy to ride like a dick.
Why though? As regular cyclists we can obviously ride at 15.5mph for hours on end with not too much effort so why does having a motor getting me to that speed change my behaviour?
Deep question Kerley. something behavioral science might explain. My guess is its to do with frustration at slower vehicles / people in the way? like those tailgating dicks in BMWs?
I don't know. I have pondered about it. Normally I am an excessively polite cyclist but somehow the ebike leads me to want to ride like a dick . I normally resist it but its there. Humans are weird
This naysayers in this thread seem to think that ebikers are all unskilled people who will be using their ebike in turbo mode and at 20mph all the time, i’ve rarely seen that on legal ebikes,
I see it all the time on the local shared paths.
It is idiotic that they haven’t changed the law on e scooters. In most cities being able to use one will take a car off the road.
Apparently not true. The journeys that e-scooters replace are mostly walking, and some cycling, hence they're a net polluter.
You missed my sarcasm.
I think so in part..
speed pedelecs exist as a class under european laws sitting between a pedelec and a moped
... though these need insurance etc and I'm talking about a bike anyone can get on and ride, the epac, and revision of the scope of epacs so that 20mph cut-off is possible (where/how/on what all tbd). In all seriousness, post-Brexit we could do that for UK use but commercially it may be unrealistic.
If you have any sense you have a cycling uk membership or similar with 3rd party insurance.
I feel that there should first be more education on the rules and the food delivery companies should be made to ensure they aren’t enabling non legal bike use.
Agreed. The apps seem to get round a lot of liability or regulations by being a gig worker structure. Perhaps the apps should be responsible for liability related to the riders, part of me sees people struggling to make ends meet and it's a symptom of a bigger problem that needs to be tackled further up without making it harder for people to earn some money. Tax the apps to fund assisted purchase of certified epacs similar to C2W scheme maybe. One thing's for sure it shows how effective an e-moped can be around a city.
Bad for all concerned How exactly?
I’m concerned and I don’t think it would be bad for me…
Because having licences for some classes of bicycles opens the gates for licences for all kinds of bicycles.
It seems more like you want a motorbike of whatever power rating/fuel type but don’t fancy the extra faff of taking a test/registering the bike…
Or more succinctly “Gimmie some more Rights without the corresponding responsibilities!”…Nah…
I think you've totally missed my point. I'm saying I think the current limits are sufficient. We don't need more powerful/faster e-bikes. If anything, off the back of this thread, I'm coming to think that 15.5mph is too generous.
For those saying 20mph is too fast, you can do that any way, just unassisted
This. People talk like eBikes are speed limited, they aren’t they are assistance limited. Following this logic all bikes should have a 20 mph speed limit imposed which is bizarre.
I've got a road bike and eBike and using the eBike doesn’t turn me into an idiot. Regularly hit over 20mph with both.
This. People talk like eBikes are speed limited, they aren’t they are assistance limited. Following this logic all bikes should have a 20 mph speed limit imposed which is bizarre.
Weird argument though. I've hit 60mph on a road bike. Does anyone think we should set the assistance cut-off of e-bikes to 60mph?
20 mph would be too fast on a shared path, and that’s what most cycleroutes are
That's not where most cycling is done, though!
Deep question Kerley. something behavioral science might explain. My guess is its to do with frustration at slower vehicles / people in the way? like those tailgating dicks in BMWs?
I don’t know. I have pondered about it. Normally I am an excessively polite cyclist but somehow the ebike leads me to want to ride like a dick . I normally resist it but its there. Humans are weird
"I behave like this therefore it is an immutable law that all humans behave like this"?
Weird argument though. I’ve hit 60mph on a road bike. Does anyone think we should set the assistance cut-off of e-bikes to 60mph?
You’ve complete misunderstood the point being made. To make it simple eBike limits don’t need the assistance level to be raised to 20mph because they can go faster than that with leg power alone. Clear?
I think its naive to think 20mph zone would magically make cars drive at 20mph (much as I'd like it to). IIRC the Welsh changes only dropped the average speed by a couple of mph and I'm guessing it wasn't 22mph to start with. So even with 20mph ebikes you're still going to get Billy Transit driver wanting to do 24mph and get by (even if you assume it's not going to be 30mph anyway regardless of limit).
This is an interesting thread. Am noting various arguments pro and con for reuse in future pub discussions
Following this logic all bikes should have a 20 mph speed limit imposed which is bizarre.
A rather bizarre leap itself. Although that is higher than is recommended for shared paths.
The majority of people cant do 20mph on a bicycle at least not for any distance and without favourable conditions. If you look at speeds in the netherlands the average speed was closer to 10mph. Although, unsurprisingly, at least one study showed the e bikes were faster
I see it all the time on the local shared paths.
Even thought the limit on the ebikes is 15.5mph still?
The whole argument that you can do 20mph on an ebike so why change the assist is also weird, when you hit 15.5mph it's like hitting a wall, to get up to 20mph on a 25kg bike with inefficient setup is pretty hard to do for any distance, you end up just tripping the assist over and over again.
And again, i don't see most ebikers doing 15.5mph all the time, you go to FoD or any mountain biking place, on the fireroads they're doing 10mph or the likes, same on canal paths, etc, unless you are an absolute idiot you ride for the conditions and how busy it is.
The point to bear in mind is that while people on here might be super duper bike handlers a lot of people aren't, and a lot (the majority ) of bikes I see are being used for commuting. You line it up, stick it to max and off you go along the bike path in the morning and the evening. And people crash, a lot, and 20 in that circumstance is a fair bit different to 15.
exactly WBO - add to that all the delivery riders around here who are mainly on legal ebikes ( there is a place hiring them to delivery riders) but ride full pelt everywhere
Its the same arguement as " I am a driving god, 100 mph onthe motorways is safe for me"
The point to bear in mind is that while people on here might be super duper bike handlers a lot of people aren’t, and a lot (the majority ) of bikes I see are being used for commuting. You line it up, stick it to max and off you go along the bike path in the morning and the evening. And people crash, a lot, and 20 in that circumstance is a fair bit different to 15.
And i see most these people going slow on ebikes, just because you can go 15.5mph on full turbo with minimal input doesn't mean everyone does that, most of those folk tend to be a bit timid, and going slow around people, dogs, etc, etc, the way this thread is arguing it's just those weird assumptions being thrown about, the whole 'shared path' thing seems to be the entire argument, yet in reality, not the biggest issue out there in terms of accidents caused by cyclists, i tend to see people on shared paths being quite good most of the time, bar the strava time trialists and a fair few dog walkers, but they don't tend to have ebikes.
This fella pulled out in front of me without a second glance. That’s me doing 40mph and he’s pulling away from me.
That’s him continuing to do 45mph plus right into the 30mph limit.
Imagine sharing a cycle path with that…Anything even capable of having the limit removed or anything without a limit should be prohibited from import.
Anything in breach of that limit should be crushed.
The limit is fine, the speed limit in all towns should drop to 20mph.
This fella pulled out in front of me without a second glance.
Indeed terrible... But what was sir snapping pictures from behind the wheel with?
That’s me doing 40mph and he’s pulling away from me.
That's good clear evidence... may be worth getting it deleted!
^ Surron, rider has a messenger bag of coke to deliver.
The hyperfocus on shared use paths is weird considering that's not where most pedestrians and cyclists are, and not where most pedestrian-cyclist interactions take place!
Anything even capable of having the limit removed or anything without a limit should be prohibited from import.
Let's start by banning the import of cars that can travel in excess of 70mph...
politecamera action - it is in Edinburgh. Large network of shared use paths that are main cyclist commuting routes and also now a cyclepath on the pavement on leith walk. Leith walk in particular is really bad 'cos of the poor design and heavily used by delivery riders on ebikes - legal ones mainly
That would be me hunched down in the seat to get Glass to capture the Speedo and the bike. It’s also why the image is quite ropey.
it is in Edinburgh. Large network of shared use paths that are main cyclist commuting routes and also now a cyclepath on the pavement on leith walk.
lol - you're taking your own experience and projecting it onto everyone else again. You're not seriously suggesting that most cycling and walking in Edinburgh is done on shared use paths, are you?
Let’s start by banning the import of cars that can travel in excess of 70mph…
The thing is though, you have to pass a test and have a licence to (legally) drive a car, and cars have to visibly display licence plates.
Yes, cars can go above the speed limit, but they're very identifiable. The same can't be said for e-bikes, so more rigidly enforcing speed restrictions seems sensible to me.
Yes, cars can go above the speed limit, but they’re very identifiable. The same can’t be said for e-bikes, so more rigidly enforcing speed restrictions seems sensible to me.
But cars aren't assisted by the motor, they are 100% powered by the motor, ebikes, as per the definition are pedal assist, so you have to pedal to then get a specific amount of power from the motor?
I'm finding it incredible folk on here are arguing like motorists against actual cyclists, you'll want ebikes to have registration numbers, insurance and vehicle excise duty within the next few posts 🤣
No - some of us are just happy with the law as it stands. Others want to change the law. Legal ebikes are no great issue tho the speed differentials can cause issues.<br /><br />its illegal motorbikes pretending to be ebikes most of us have issue with
not where most pedestrian-cyclist interactions take place!
Which is wrong. If the bikes are on the road then therte is no pedestrian / cyclist issues. On shared use paths there are - so yes - most cvylist / pedestrian interactions happen on shared use paths because they don't happen on roads. the two only ever meet on shared use paths.
Which is wrong. If the bikes are on the road then therte is no pedestrian / cyclist issues
"Interactions", TJ, not "issues", e.g. when pedestrians cross a road and a bike needs to stop for them.
I’m finding it incredible folk on here are arguing like motorists against actual cyclists, you’ll want ebikes to have registration numbers, insurance and vehicle excise duty within the next few posts
The point is that I don't. And if you allow e-bikes to go as fast as mopeds, that do require those things, it's not a huge leap to say that all bikes should have them.
The issue seems simple to me. In essence, electrically powered bikes are by law motorbikes; and should be regulated as such… unless they comply with the conditions of an exemption from motorbike regulation. The terms of that exemption (25kph, 250 watts, etc) are set at a point that will normally ensure that the complaint e-bikes behave similarly to normal bikes. I think it works OK as is.
Shared use paths are exactly where most of these are used round here and most of Europe. I am minded to think that you're the exception here.
If more top quality pedestrian/bike paths were built in the UK would you still expect to ride these on the road?
[politecameraaction - thats still a tiny % of interactions. the vast majority are on shared use paths. I ride around the city most days. Been months since a pedestrian stepped into the road in front of me wheras I have dozens or hundreds of interactions with pedestrians on shared use paths every time I use them<br /><br />shared use paths are where the issue is.