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Inspired by reading the new motor/gearbox thing, and thinking e-bikes are a big compromise to fit legislation rather being a good thing designed from scratch, a bit like some tiny range hybrid cars built to reap tax advantages for fleets.
Lets imagine we were starting from a clean slate and e-bikes were allowed everywhere they are now, but didn't need to be pedalled. Or even have pedals. Still have a speed limit of around 30kph 25 kph so they aren't bringing massive speed differentials with other users they share with.
Would you ride/buy a pedal free ebike/scooter if they were legal? Would enough people still buy the assisted pedalling version that they were a viable product?
I probably wouldn't be walking down any shared use paths if the speed limit went up to 30kph
No, I pedal for the pleasure of exercise
Well basically a mini SurRon Light Bee X then
The vast majority of ebikes in Cambridge have been chipped to have no speed limit.
Overtook some kid on the way to private school one morning on an ebike who was doing 30mph. He can't have been more than 14. Even the posh kids get them chipped!
All the Deliveroo / Just Eat riders have DIY ebike conversions which never had a limit in the first place.
Oops, I misremembered the numbers, current e-bikes stay legal if they don't assist over 25kph, I will edit OP.
I’d like to see regular police sweeps for the throttle-controlled e-bikes. They’re a regular menace now along with electric scooters. I think part of the problem is how they break the connection between exertion and speed that allows e-bikes to be conflated with the bicycle.
I do think there is a place for faster e-bikes with compulsory third party insurance though, like the s-bikes of the Netherlands; but that place is not on cycle infrastructure or shared use paths.
its an electric assisted bicycle at the moment. what you are suggesting is a whole new class of vehicle for the UK. In amsterdam they have electric hire mopeds limited to 25kph that can go on cyclepaths and as above a speed pedelec class
I think the current law is good. I don't see need for change, only for enforcement and a press who re-enforce the 'that's an electric motorcycle' narrative when needed.
Well basically a mini SurRon Light Bee X then
Sort of, but speed limited to be shared use path friendly. Or at the commuter end of things:
https://www.dayimotor.com/citycoco/3000w-citycoco/citycoco-harley-scooter-belgium.html
In Netherlands, speed restricted mopeds used to be allowed on cycle lanes, though Amsterdam and Utrecht recently sent them back to play with the cars.
You can already buy electric motorbikes.
Of course, the added speed (and weight) brings with it added responsibilities so insurance and licensing become a requirement.
I think the current legislation is good, you can have either a motorcycle or an electrically assisted pedal cycle. We just seem to be failing in compliance with that legislation, with dodgy self builds, chipping and unrestricted imports supposedly destined for use on private land.
Something in between motor & pedal cycle would just further muddy the waters.
Ebike laws just aren't enforced anyway, just look at all the delivery riders whizzing about on illegal ebikes, they just seem to be tolerated.
The hire scheme scooters and e-bikes in Cambridge and elsewhere require a driving license, include insurance, are restricted to 15mph (and a lower limit in some geofenced areas), and are allowed on cycle infrastructure. I had an unpleasant experience with one being disabled in traffic, so would personally never now endorse that hire scheme model.
Would love them to align with USA, so a 20mph limit imposed, rather than the 15.5mph we have, mainly due to the fact that for most road/hardpack style routes, on flat or thereabouts you're averaging just over the current limit, so having a bike that's going in and out and just a real pain, 20mph seems to be a better number for the commuting population.
Would love them to align with USA, so a 20mph limit imposed,
TBH just go a 50cc moped route,allow 28mph once you’ve done a cbt and got a provisional licence and insurance.
If you can’t chuck it around a few cones you probably shouldn’t be er let loose.
As mentioned fine as it is but with a 20mph limit.
I doubt many would bother to derestrict them if that was the limit.
15.5 mph is too slow.
20mph is far too fast for cycleways. Its fine for experienced riders commuting in traffic but stupid for inexperienced ones and those on cycleways
In the netherlands the older folk on legal ebikes are causing and having a lot of crashes
20mph an hour limit is a great idea… especially for commuting… fewer cars is always good… but for road use only, not shared paths… and you’re getting into questions about insurance and licenses there as well.
It’s worth noting that the higher limit for ebikes in the USA results in restrictions on where you can use any ebike. I suspect we’d have more restrictions than the land or the free if we upped the limit. Be careful what you wish for…
I’m happy with the 15.5mph limit. If you want to go faster then pedal harder. If you don’t want to pedal then don't buy an ebike. There’s enough people grumping about e-bikes already without making them faster. They’re there to assist us, not do all the work. I think the 15.5mph limit is a good way of regulating the speed on cycle paths and trails.
Currently in the UK we can ride e-bikes in all the same places we can ride bikes, compare that to the US where they’re really quite limited in comparison and have a lot of trails that prohibit e-bikes.
I reckon you'd get more people out of cars more often with a product that didn't need pedalling. That would be a good thing. Something less 'bike/cycling' and more mini moped. Honda Cub, Vespa, that kind of appeal just lighter and cleaner with the ease of use of a bike (no tax mot etc).
Frustrating that type approval / standards haven't made it possible yet. If the limit stayed at 25kph 250W then I don't really see what difference pedal assistance or a throttle makes to the type of use or legality.
It is idiotic that they haven't changed the law on e scooters.
In most cities being able to use one will take a car off the road.
I understand the need for registration and insurance and that is fine with me. But the current lack of anything is dumb.
Plus the media has a usual blown everything out of proportion
I think the current law is good. I don’t see need for change, only for enforcement and a press who re-enforce the ‘that’s an electric motorcycle’ narrative when needed.
Absolutely this.
So many issues in the last 25 years have become "we need new legislation" when tne laws we have are sufficient if enforced properly. Catch them, fine them/the parents, scrap the illegal vehicle.
Seem to remember back in the Blair years there was talk of legislation to tackle antisocial drinking - so drunk and disorderly then?
Lets imagine we were starting from a clean slate and e-bikes were allowed everywhere they are now, but didn’t need to be pedalled. Or even have pedals. Still have a speed limit of around 30kph 25 kph so they aren’t bringing massive speed differentials with other users they share with.
Would you ride/buy a pedal free ebike/scooter if they were legal?
Under those conditions I'm even less likely to use one. The only thing that gets me over a regular bicycle is range anxiety and a good walk pushing a heavy object when it runs out of power.
The presence of a throttle is not itself illegal if it is a conversion kit, as long as the cut off speed and power match the regulations.
Perhaps there should be more demonstrations of ebikes to the public ao they can see how much easier they are to pedal when assisted and how the different assistence levels can be used - might make more of them think that they are a viable option and a throttle is not needed - especially as the range when peddling is much better than using just a throttle.
"The presence of a throttle is not itself illegal if it is a conversion kit, as long as the cut off speed and power match the regulations."
What are the regs with regard to cut off speed and power?
I regularly see an old bloke on my commute on a BSO converted to electric going uphill at almost 30mph whilst not pedalling🤣
“ The presence of a throttle is not itself illegal if it is a conversion kit, as long as the cut off speed and power match the regulations.”
You can have a throttle but you have to have a cut-out if the cranks stop rotating. If the motor works when the cranks aren’t turning (apart from a moment of over-run) then it isn’t a road legal ebike.
I like to pedal my ebike but I don’t have a problem with speed and power limited two wheeled electric vehicles that you don’t pedal being used in bike lanes etc. But there need to be tight regulations about making them impossible to derestrict, giving them integrated lights and reflectors (because many of the illegal escooters are invisible in the dark), and making them so they have decent brakes and geometry and wheels that can handle potholed roads.
Would love them to align with USA, so a 20mph limit imposed, rather than the 15.5mph we have, mainly due to the fact that for most road/hardpack style routes, on flat or thereabouts you’re averaging just over the current limit, so having a bike that’s going in and out and just a real pain, 20mph seems to be a better number for the commuting population.
This.
60 and 50mph- 20mph
20 30 and 40- 15mph
In town centre- 12mph
GPS controlled
“ Would love them to align with USA, so a 20mph limit imposed, rather than the 15.5mph we have, mainly due to the fact that for most road/hardpack style routes, on flat or thereabouts you’re averaging just over the current limit, so having a bike that’s going in and out and just a real pain, 20mph seems to be a better number for the commuting population.”
20mph totally doesn’t work with far too many urban bike lanes. Either keep them at 15.5 or make them like 50cc scooters with tests and insurance etc and 30mph limits.
I used an ehite e scooter on Cambridge this week. Had a hospital appointment and yomped from the train station to Addenbrooke's but on seeing so. Many being used on my walk I decides to try a e scooter for the way back. Complete revaluation on how fast and convenient it is. And because it's a hire scheme there no need to worry about theft.
What are the regs with regard to cut off speed and power?
15.5mph and 250w continous, same as for normal epacs.
You can have a throttle but you have to have a cut-out if the cranks stop rotating. If the motor works when the cranks aren’t turning (apart from a moment of over-run) then it isn’t a road legal ebike.
you've made that up - I have never seen anything in writing that says that - you need to provide a link.
There was an article on Pedelecs soon after the 2016 reg change which confirmed that twist and go on a converted ebike was legal as long as the power and speed limits were followed, and I wrote to the DfT for confirmation, which they provided by saying that the web article was correct. I have quoted their answer several times on this site, one fairly recently.
https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cycles-converted-twist-go-exempt-type-approval/
I think the current legislation is good, you can have either a motorcycle or an electrically assisted pedal cycle. We just seem to be failing in compliance with that legislation, with dodgy self builds, chipping and unrestricted imports supposedly destined for use on private land.
Something in between motor & pedal cycle would just further muddy the waters.
I have to agree, the necessary bases are basically already covered by what's already allowed under current legislation, if eeeb chippers, Surron-ists and deliverooists feel they deserve some alternative classification/special treatment that's all well and good, but they've generally not demonstrated the ability to work within a simple set of rules or behave in a responsible fashion so why should the rest of us have to make further allowances and compromises for them?
It’s not very clear what’s legal - many sources say twist and go is not legal above 3.7mph - but what is clear is that any twist and go bike since 2016 has to be type approved.
but what is clear is that any twist and go bike since 2016 has to be type approved.
any new bike with twist and go has to be type approved, unless it only assists to 6kmh (there may be a change for vehicles sold after 2018, I haven’t checked), but a conversion of a bike that has been previously used on the road with a kit can be twist and go to the full 15.5mph, as the article I linked to points out and I’ve had confirmed as well.
I was also sent this guidance:
Guidance on European Type Approval for certain Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (EAPC)
New European rules affecting certain Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles
This note provides guidance to help retailers, manufacturers, importers and dealers ensure that they do not sell or register non-compliant electrically assisted pedal cycles. The term Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (EAPC) includes vehicles that are capable of being propelled either by pedalling or by electric power, but does not include more powerful electric bikes (over 250W), those which can exceed 25km/h (15.5mph) (“speed pedelecs”) or those which cannot be propelled by pedal, all of which are treated as mopeds or scooters in UK. A separate guidance note covers the situation as regards the domestic laws in Great Britain covering these vehicles and the criteria they must satisfy in order not be classed as motor vehicles.
New European laws affect certain EAPC sold new after 1 January 2016. If you import, manufacture or sell certain EAPC then you need to be aware of the law.
1. New requirement from 1 January 2016 – Type Approval for “twist and go” EAPC.
Certain electrically assisted pedal cycles are specified in GB law as not being motor vehicles and thus not subject to the requirements for registration, tax, driver licensing, compulsory insurance, helmet wearing and annual roadworthiness testing that would otherwise apply to all motorised two wheel vehicles. Within the GB definition of Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle there are two distinct classes – cycles which can only obtain power assistance when the rider is pedalling, and those where power can be obtained even when the rider is not pedalling, often known as “Twist and go”.
1.1 Cycles which cannot obtain power assistance when the rider is not pedaling
Under European law (Regulation 168/2013: Article 2-2 (h)) these cycles are exempt from EU type approval.
1.2 Cycles where power can be obtained even when the rider is not pedalling (twist and go)
Under European law these cycles are categorised as “L1e-A” and are required to obtain EU or domestic type approval. They are not required to be registered. There is however an exemption for cycles where power is available only up to 6 km/h without pedalling, to help start-up, and these are exempt from type approval.
2. Is there some leeway for in-scope EAPC models that were in stock or on sale prior to 1 January 2016?
Yes. We believe that in-scope EAPC without type approval can continue to be sold by importers if they were manufactured and imported prior to 1 Jan 2016. Article 12 of 168/2013 states that importers shall place on the market only compliant vehicles, suggesting that EAPC already placed on the market prior to 1 January 2016 can continue to be sold off. This does not permit the import or manufacture of new in-scope EAPC without approval after this date.
3. What forms of type approval exist?
2.1 Single Vehicle Approval (MSVA), which is an inspection normally carried out by the Driver and Vehicle Services Agency (DVSA), formerly VOSA. An EAPC will be treated as a low power moped. For more information on how to apply, details of the requirements, the fee and so on, see:
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/motorcycle-single-vehicle-approval
2.2 European Type Approval (ECWVTA), which is available from the UK Vehicle Certification Agency (VCA) or from type approval authorities in other member states, for example KBA in Germany. More information on the requirements is given below.
4. European type approval – the requirements for EAPC in scope (see para 1.2 above) 4.1 Requirements of European type approval from 1 Jan 2016
We have been advised that initially the only requirement for in-scope EAPC is on lighting: An Automatic Headlamp On (AHO) facility must be fitted. Essentially, a bicycle front lamp which the manufacturer declares complies with ISO 6742-1:1987 must be fitted and designed to be lit automatically when the vehicle is in motion. This could be via dynamo or other technical solution. Under domestic law (The Pedal Cycle Safety Regulations 2010) a number of reflectors must be fitted to a new bike so it would be advisable to cover them in the type approval in preparation for a full type approval as per paragraph 4.2 below. In addition, a manufacturer’s Conformity of Production will need to be demonstrated to the VCA (or overseas approval authority).
4.2 Requirements of European type approval for vehicles sold after 1 Jan 2018
From 1 Jan 2018 all EAPC which are of the “twist and go” type will need a full type approval to 168/2013. This encompasses a long list of requirements, on lighting, brakes, and so on, although in case of lights and tyres, “bicycle” CEN standards are accepted, and low speed vehicles are exempt from some requirements.
5. What are the penalties for not having type approval?
The relevant domestic regulations are in draft form and will be subject to a short consultation soon. Currently a range of fines are envisaged as penalties, depending on the severity and persistence of the offence. After modification following any comments received, the regulations will be published and enter into force immediately.
6. Q&A
Why are certain EAPC (the “twist and go” types) required to have type approval?
This was decided during a European negotiation and the majority view among member states was that requiring type approval was appropriate for these vehicles. Once obtained, type approval means that the vehicle can be sold throughout Europe without further inspection. This should result in lower costs for consumers and help exporters.
What about electric pedal cycles which are not EAPC under British law as the power exceeds 250W, or the powered speed can exceed 15.5mph (25kph)?
These vehicles, regardless of the precise mode of power assistance, are classified as mopeds in Great Britain and like any moped, type approval has been a requirement since 2003. Depending on the maximum power and speed the vehicles will be categorised in Europe as L1e-A (not exceeding 1000kW or 25 km/h) or L1e-B (not L1e-A, and up to 4kW and 45km/h).
7 . G l o ssa r y
European type approval
Most two and three wheel motor vehicles are type approved before they can be sold and registered. Type approval is the process of a government appointed body (e.g. the UK government has appointed the Vehicle Certification Agency, VCA) certifying that a range of vehicles complies with relevant safety and
environmental laws. It is normally obtained by the manufacturer, as only he can guarantee the conformity of every vehicle he produces. Once a vehicle range is type approved, a manufacturer issues an EC Certificate of Conformity (EC CoC) with each vehicle to declare that it complies with the approved specification.
Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval (MSVA)
Two and three wheel motor vehicles, including in-scope electric cycles that have not been type approved by the manufacturer must undergo an SVA inspection before they can be registered, to ensure they meet relevant safety and environmental standards. DVSA carry out MSVA testing in Great Britain, with DVA responsible in Northern Ireland.
8. Exports and sales in other EU member states
Other member states may have completely different domestic rules, although as a matter of principle they will be required to accept a vehicle with a full EU type approval. You may find that EAPC of a class subject to
type approval will be subject to registration, driver licensing and so on as if it were a moped – albeit some member states have a less onerous regime for mopeds. You will need to contact the vehicle or transport authority in those states, or a bicycle or motorcycle trade association, for more information.
9. Useful links
MSVA from DVSA (GB)
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/motorcycle-single-vehicle-approval
MSVA from DVA (Northern Ireland) – http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/the-motorcycle-single-vehicle-approval-msva-scheme
Vehicle Certification Agency (VCA) - http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/
EU Regulations on motorcycles – http://ec.europa.eu/growth/sectors/automotive/legislation/motorbikes- trikes-quads/index_en.htm
Motor Cycle Industry Association (MCIA) – http://www.mcia.co.uk/
Bicycle Association of Great Britain (BAGB) - http://www.bicycleassociation.org.uk/
The information in this document is a summary of the Department’s understanding of what the law requires. However, ultimately the interpretation of the law is a matter for the courts based on individual facts of any particular case. You are therefore advised to consult the relevant legislation and, if necessary, seek independent advice.
Department for Transport
I am in Beijing at the moment and haven't seen any ebikes like we have at home. Loads of small electric scooters with seats and quite a few of the tiny electric cars. No one seems to be in a hurry in either. Quite a few normal bikes but no ebikes as such.
It is idiotic that they haven’t changed the law on e scooters.......I understand the need for registration and insurance and that is fine with me
First they came for the e scooters and
I said nothing, as I didn’t ride one....
Bearing in mind the success of registration and insurance in eliminating dangerous driving, I'd have thought it was obvious we needed more enforcement of existing laws, not more laws no one has the resources to deal with
some places are getting rid of or reducing the use of escooters. Paris was one - because they are implicated so strongly in antisocial riding and injuries. I would like to see the law on them and ebikes enforced better. However ebikes do not create the same injury risk or antisocial behaviour
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65154854
If I didn't want to pedal, I'd get a license and buy an electric moped, but I want to pedal.
I went out with a local Facebook organised e-bike group in the spring. There were maybe about a dozen of us on an assortment of e-MTB's and e-commuter / hybrid bikes. At 54, I was one of the youngest members of the group and from the off, I was pretty much on the rivet. In my very weak defence, I've got my Levo's input dialled down so that I have to work in eco mode, but can bail out into trail when my back or my lungs start screaming at me. But from the outset with that group, I was off the back and chasing. I was getting no assist from the bike as I was over the 15.5mph limit for the majority of the ride. From what I gleaned from the final stop before the group all split and headed home, the ride leader had pretty much helped modify all the bikes in the group so they were running with the US style 20mph cut-off.
Barrelling along shared paths at 20mph is way too fast. Even at 15mph it's crazy fast to be overtaking people.
So I think the legislation as it stands is good. What we do need though is some sort of crackdown on these home made firestarter e-motorbikes that plague the city centres. Grrr!
B.
For those saying 20mph is too fast, you can do that any way, just unassisted, you go down any shared cycle path around here and you'll see normal bikes going 20mph or faster, you go down the bath/bristol route and you'll see roadies racing down there!
If you want to stop what you believe is unsafe speed on shared paths, then shouldn't we be asking the government to apply speed limits to shared paths as well?
Overtaking people, passing safely, etc is more down to the person than the speed, either you're considerate and slow down, give them a warning as to your presence and overtake, or you're not, and you shoot past them hoping they don't move.
Its much easier and very tempting to ride like an arse on an ebike. I know I have one. Experience on dutch cycleways shows that even 15.5 mph creates big speed differentials.<br /><br />Locally to me - ebikes are 99% of the fast cyclists on cycleways. I am never overtaken on mine and overtake most other non ebikes
E-scooters are different though as it is totally illegal to ride them due to the law not allowing for them.
Whatever is said about ebikes the law does allow for at least various forms of them. E scooters are not allowed in any way which is dumb.
If a level of registration is needed, as per the hire schemes then do be it. I am not in any way saying that bikes should be subject to the same.
This is ignorant whataboutism "First they came for the e scooters and
I said nothing, as I didn’t ride one…."
Tj - the paris regulation is for rental E-scooters, private ones are still allowed. But to provide a comparison how much airtime is now given to red light jumping bike riders? Limited now as they have found a new bogeyman in E-scooters
I would be all for 15mph electric vehicles being legal to use in same way as a bicycle. Makes no difference to me if someone is casually turning the pedals to go 15mph or not turning the pedals at all to go 15mph. They still make a good pace bike for me to follow up the hills...
E-scooters are different though as it is totally illegal to ride them due to the law not allowing for them.
Whatever is said about ebikes the law does allow for at least various forms of them. E scooters are not allowed in any way which is dumb.
IMO anyone with a full drivers licence should be allowed to ride e-scooters without a full motorbike licence and L-Plates. Probably just a CBT to make sure you can actually keep it upright.
I could easily fit an e-scooter into my life for short journeys. But I really CBA to do a full motorbike test or ride around with L plates on looking like a pizza delivery rider! 🙂
EDIT - I should add I'm talking about scooters as in mopeds (mini motorbike) - not scooters as in childs play toy! And be fully insured on said scooter (moped).
The problem is insurance. I know a cyclist that was hit by a legal hire e-scooter (not when on his bike), but he's badly damaged his shoulder, needs surgery, and is off work - self employed. Hire company is not being helpful with tracing the 'rider'.
I have third party for riding my normal bike, and, unfortunately, have been claimed against, I was knocked off my bike, but in the resultant fall, skidded across the road and took another rider down - he sued me !
Part of me* thinks that the current rules aren't fit for purpose. 15.5mph is too slow on the road (a fairly average roadie would leave you for dust) and more crucially its annoyingly slower than the cars in a residentual/suburban setting - which speed limit or not, seems to de-facto be around about 20ish when its busy;
yet they are too fast for mtbing, it gives you world cup pro levels of climbing ability, perhaps unsuited to shared off road spaces or even dedicated bike trails when shared with actual mtbs.
Ideally, I'd suggest a geofenced variable limiter - 20 on roads where you act as a moped/motorbike; but only 10 off road (clearly you can still pedal above this), where you may act as a bicycle.
Of course while the technology exists, lets not kid ourselves that it would only potentially be a small minority of fancy bikes, the majority would remain dodgy throttled chinese conversions doing deliveroo runs.
*...and part of me wants a fancy fast e-bike to go play in the woods on my own.
15.5mph is too slow on the road
You're not limited to 15.5 mph, if you have the legs and the lungs, you can ride much faster than that. The thing with e-bikes is that you can get up hills much faster. I think the complaint is that people want an electric motorbike and are disappointed when they find out that they have to pedal the thing.
Just ban the lot of them. It’s clear lots of the existing users want a motorcycle, so they should go and buy one.
I am fed up with all the “we need a higher speed limit”. If you can ride faster ditch the ebike and do it.
A 20mph limit wouldn't be unreasonable. If the urban speed limit is generally 20mph then it makes sense for an ebike to match that.
Not on a shared path, cycle path or off road. There are enough dicks about without giving them more speed.
A lot of ebikes in urban settings are often riden inappropriately. I also dont want to be pedaling up a climb off road with ebikes coming up the trail at 20 mph.
You’re not limited to 15.5 mph, if you have the legs and the lungs, you can ride much faster than that. The thing with e-bikes is that you can get up hills much faster. I think the complaint is that people want an electric motorbike and are disappointed when they find out that they have to pedal the thing.
Yep, but you're also on a 25kg bike not set up to be quick, and as soon as you hit 15.5mph, you are 100% moving that bike, it's just a bad speed to set the limit, as commuting tends to be done above 15mph on flat and downs.
Again, the reasoning that nobody goes above 15.5mph is not realistic, whenever i commute via the Bristol cycleways (ring road, B2B, etc) you have a lot of people treating their commute, or fitness rides like they're on a time trial and going well above 15.5mph, it can't just be local to Bristol though?!
Again, the reasoning that nobody goes above 15.5mph is not realistic, whenever i commute via the Bristol cycleways (ring road, B2B, etc) you have a lot of people treating their commute, or fitness rides like they’re on a time trial and going well above 15.5mph, it can’t just be local to Bristol though?!
Generally the people who can hold decent speeds have done the work, and have the experience to do so safely, though.
Part of me* thinks that the current rules aren’t fit for purpose. 15.5mph is too slow on the road (a fairly average roadie would leave you for dust)
Is that really a bad thing, though? Should anyone be able to get on an ebike for the first time and outpace people with years of training and experience? This isn't coming from a point of envy, or unfairness, but safety and responsibility.
Should anyone be able to get on an ebike for the first time and outpace people with years of training and experience? This isn’t coming from a point of envy, or unfairness, but safety and responsibility.
My opinion (and that is all it is) is that 20 would better integrate into existing traffic and infrastructure as a viable urban and suburban active travel method.
Probably wishful thinking as some dickhead who thinks you only use the rear brake will go barelling down the pavement at 20 scattering a crowd of nuns.
If you want to stop what you believe is unsafe speed on shared paths, then shouldn’t we be asking the government to apply speed limits to shared paths as well?
Whilst not legally enforced the guidance is over 15 (or 18mph different sources say different things) then the rider should be on the road instead.
Of course some people wont obey it but the number of people who can comfortably hold 20mph without favourable terrain/wind isnt going to be that high and hopefully most of them will have the brains to be careful near people.
There is a tarmacked sustrans track on an old rail line near me which doesnt have many pedestrian entry points for large parts of it. My strava segments on it are all over the place since at quiet times can go full out but on sunday mornings going to the farmers market generally its 10mph or so max as there are lots of people out then and it would be unsafe to go faster.
Whilst not legally enforced the guidance is over 15 (or 18mph different sources say different things) then the rider should be on the road instead.
Of course, try telling that to motorists!
15.5mph is too slow on the road
Is that really a bad thing, though?
Yes, because Davey Transit Van is up my bum trying to get those 4.5mph - 20mph is the speed limit all around here.
"For those saying 20mph is too fast, you can do that any way, just unassisted, you go down any shared cycle path around here and you’ll see normal bikes going 20mph or faster, you go down the bath/bristol route and you’ll see roadies racing down there! "
Yes, but it's a lot harder to pedal a bike to 20+ mph - I don't know how fast an ebike can accelerate to that speed but I know my Levo gets to 15.5mph very quickly and even that is too fast on a lot of bike lanes but 20+ would be worse.
"Yep, but you’re also on a 25kg bike not set up to be quick, and as soon as you hit 15.5mph, you are 100% moving that bike, it’s just a bad speed to set the limit, as commuting tends to be done above 15mph on flat and downs."
I commute on a 25kg e-full-sus running Hillbilly/Butcher tyres (I do pump them up to 30psi unless I'm commuting the gnarly way). The motor helps me get up the hills faster. On the flat I can happily cruise above the limiter despite the air/tyre drag. Downhill I go fast.
The weight is only an impediment uphill but that's when the motor helps out.
Our model for motor vehicle insurance is broken anyway. We should instead collect a levy for and include universal third party insurance in fuel and electricity sales. Every driver would then be automatically ensured for third party liability whatever the vehicle. Let people who want it then take out fire, theft, and comprehensive insurance policies.
Sure, it risks a tragedy of the commons problem, but as I understand it right now something like ten or fifteen percent of drivers are driving uninsured anyway.
Yes, because Davey Transit Van is up my bum trying to get those 4.5mph – 20mph is the speed limit all around here.
You missed quoting all the context.
But anyway, that's really irrelevant. It doesn't matter what speed you're doing. They will *still* be sitting on your back wheel.
Our model for motor vehicle insurance is broken anyway. We should instead collect a levy for and include universal third party insurance in fuel and electricity sales.
So someone who doesnt drive gets to subsidise drivers via their electricity bill which already is rather high currently?
The victims of the uninsured drivers are already covered under the Motor Insurance Bureau so ultimately via everyone elses insurance policies.
Set the limit at that.
Which is fine for the roads but not so great if they are using one of the shared paths.
My opinion (and that is all it is) is that 20 would better integrate into existing traffic and infrastructure as a viable urban and suburban active travel method.
At 20 mph you have about 66% more energy than at 15.5 mph, a crash will be much worse. You also have less time to react to danger so your braking time will be reduced. The problem isn't integrating into traffic, it's idiots riding ebikes on shared paths and hitting pedestrians. There will be more crashes and the crashes will be much worse. I think ebikes are a good thing but they're not meant to be mopeds.
For those saying 20mph is too fast, you can do that any way, just unassisted, you go down any shared cycle path around here and you’ll see normal bikes going 20mph or faster, you go down the bath/bristol route and you’ll see roadies racing down there!
Sure but first you've got to invest in a pedal bike that will do those speeds then you've got to train for a bit to sustain those speeds, and all that normally comes with the skill and experience to avoid getting tangled up with other users. As @tjagain says, any idiot can ride an e-bike at that speed, and those things are considerable more hefty then skinny roadies are!
t 20 mph you have about 66% more energy than at 15.5 mph, a crash will be much worse. You also have less time to react to danger so your braking time will be reduced. The problem isn’t integrating into traffic, it’s idiots riding ebikes on shared paths and hitting pedestrians. There will be more crashes and the crashes will be much worse. I think ebikes are a good thing but they’re not meant to be mopeds.
which was my original suggestion. Either 2 classifications or a geofenced/automatic way of switching between the two.
20mph on the road, 10 on shared paths, bridleways etc.
(and I acknowledged the practical issues with implementing this, but that's never stopped a good old STW urban cycling thread before)
Part of my regular route to work is down an urban dual carriageway, one of those gently winding bits through suburbia with a really wide central reservation with massive trees along it, with loads of side roads and breaks in the central reservation, two big secondary schools and a major bus route down it - and some years back it was changed from a 30mph limit to a 20mph limit. Normally I stay off the road but last week when it was absolutely chucking it down, that monsoon/movie rain that you hardly ever get in England, I rode in along that road.
According to Strava I was at between 26 and 30mph the whole way down that road but I had a car hard on my tail all the way, until it squeezed past (I was in the middle of the lane trying to stay safe) with less than a foot clearance, whilst I was doing 30, not long after I'd set off the 20mph limit speed-detecting sign. Unfortunately for the foolish driver I caught up with him at the end of the road, and wasted far more time that he'd saved whilst educating him on his poor behaviour...
The only way to integrate a bike into existing traffic is to make it look like a car, as well as go as fast as a car. A bike travelling at less than 30 and looking like a bike will always be viewed by many drivers as something that needs to get out of the way because it's holding them up, regardless of speed limits and traffic.
And having ridden a 50cc moped with a 30mph limiter on the same route, I can confirm they do the exact same with them.
a geofenced/automatic way of switching between the two.
Just not practical. Keep it simple, limit ebikes to a speed that is sensible for novice riders on shared paths. If they want to commute in traffic at motorbike speeds, tell them to buy motorbikes.
If they want to commute in traffic at motorbike speeds, tell them to buy motorbikes.
Yup. A moped licence is easy to get, not overly expensive and allows up to 30ish.
Doesnt seem much point in putting another category in the middle.
Ok, forget the switching, how about a separate category.
20mph limiter, but you can only ride it on roads. Like a moped, but one where you can use a bike style helmet, or no helmet, no requirement for insurance or licence; and maybe you can carry it up to your city apartment rather than leaving it outside to be nicked.
How would we feel about them?
which was my original suggestion. Either 2 classifications or a geofenced/automatic way of switching between the two.
20mph on the road, 10 on shared paths, bridleways etc.
I'd been thinking that having speed limits and/or tests/mandatory training for higher speed restriction e-bikes might be a way to resolve some issues, but all those paths lead to bikes being licensed, which would be bad for all concerned.
Moped licence, some of you will have one already if you passed your car test before 2001. If you passed your car test after 2001 you only need to complete CBT. https://www.gov.uk/motorcycle-cbt/car-driving-licence
Everyone should have an apprenticeship. on a two wheeler before they get behind the wheel
When I rule the world, ebikes and escooters will be legal, but only as part of a complete systemic change.
From the age of mid teen, say 14 ish, you are legal permitted to use a e scooter or throttle e bike or other "vulnerable road user transport category" that is limited to 20mph on the road. The speed limits for all vehicles in a city is a blanket 20mph - so all forms of transport go at broadly the same speed. All equally viable forms of transport, all integrate together ok and all are permitted on the roads whilst obviously being banned from pavements / pedestrian areas. The permission to use this lowest form of transport is immutable.
However, if you want to get a driving licence for car / motorbike / hgv / bus etc, then you must show a log of x,000hours as a "vulnerable" road user.
Once you have clocked a hefty usage as a "vulnerable" user, you are then able to apply for your drivers licence, sit your test etc and go about your merry way.
However, any driving offence you get convicted for will see you banned from driving until you have clocked another lump of hours up as a "vulnerable" road user. The length of ban is commensurate as to the seriousness of the offence.
That way, everyone, knows very well what it's like to be a vulnerable road user and should take more care. Also everyone will have open to them to the most suitable form of transport as to their needs.
I’d been thinking that having speed limits and/or tests/mandatory training for higher speed restriction e-bikes might be a way to resolve some issues,
Yes, the police really want to spend their time checking cyclists to see if they have the correct stamps on their licence to ride the category of ebike they are on. Much, much simpler to just limit the speed that legal ebikes can do. Sure, they will get hacked but that will just be a niche thing and anyone who does it will put themselves in legal jeopardy. Laws that are simple to enforce are much more effective than complex ones that have multiple categories for different classes of users.
Sure but first you’ve got to invest in a pedal bike that will do those speeds then you’ve got to train for a bit to sustain those speeds, and all that normally comes with the skill and experience to avoid getting tangled up with other users. As @tjagain says, any idiot can ride an e-bike at that speed, and those things are considerable more hefty then skinny roadies are!
During most journeys, you can do 20mph on a normal bike as well quite easily, racing snakes for longer and higher speeds, so above 20mph, i'm not 100% you can correlate their ability for speed against their skills for not having accidents, i've seen a couple of incidents on the B2B, and more elsewhere, and it's mostly down to head down mentality rather than a hefty bike, and again, just because the bike can do 20mph assisted, doesn't mean folk will do that speed all the time, most of the time i see ebikers bimbling, not flat out in turbo mode trying to smash strava sections.
You appear to have missed the “but”.
Fair point, I think we agree.