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Back in the day, moving one's weight back for descending and central for single-track was the thing, and it worked really well. I considered myself technically good although risk averse. But now, with a modern bike I think I am doing it wrong. I feel like I should be really leaning forward and putting more weight over the bars but this seems rather hard to do. My bike might be too big - it is a little on the large side.
Is weight forward the done thing these days?
The pedal spindle should be under the middle of the arch of your foot. This means that you can keep your heels down whilst your knees are extended but not locked out. Pelvis should be back, hips should be flexed (bent), elbows should be out laterally, and your breastbone should be over your stem. Head should be up and looking ahead. This keeps the front weighted without putting you in a position to throw you over the bars. Flats and a hardtail give the best feedback about being in the correct position.
Was expecting this thread to be about your Cube Attain GTC disk, you've got a more recent version of my '16 model iirc, on the flat I reckon weight over the rear is closer to ~65% than a racier geo being more like ~55%!
your breastbone should be over your stem
That's much further forward than I am used to. The increased reach seems to require this.
Back in the day, moving one’s weight back for descending and central for single-track was the thing, and it worked really well.
Mostly because people were riding bikes far too small for them, with hideous geometry, so the only way to create space was to ride off the back of the bike.
Is weight forward the done thing these days?/The challenge, was then translating that to a modern bike. If you hang off the back of a longer & slacker bike, you will literally have no front end grip.
Assuming you are referring to a Reactor (which is still pretty conservative in terms of geometry, for a modern bike) it will be significantly bigger than 99% of the old 26” abominations we used to ride, so you style needs to adapt, to get the most out of it.
So yes, in short, move forward, hinge at the hips, drop the heels, elbows up & chin over the stem is a decent starting point, which will feel alien for quite a while. Try and force yourself forward when descending- it’s such a classic on really steep techy stuff you see unconfident riders going further & further back off the bike & it’s literally the worst thing you can do.
Even the pro riders who ride in a style of ‘swinging off the back of it’ (Fairclough/Moir, etc) are so aggressively over the front of the bike compared to the average rider, it’s a totally different position.
Yes, with older geometry we were halfway over the bars anyway, so had to work hard to keep back and stop that from happening.
Try and force yourself forward when descending- it’s such a classic on really steep techy stuff
On gentler steep stuff I find it quite a useful exercise to play around with weight distribution and brake control. It’s amazing how much more effectively I can control my speed and even stop on nasty terrain by keeping my heels down and putting weight over the front of the bike. Which then gives me the freedom to unweight the front wheel when I need to too.
I rode my buddy's Spur last week. My regular FS is an original Jeffsy (2016), and compared to that I was really struck by how much further forward my weight was, to the extent that I had the back wheel come up because I shifted my weight forward as I would have done on the Jeffsy and it was clearly too far forward. The other thing I noticed was how well the Spur steered, it was so easy to change your line mid corner. Lovely bike.
your breastbone should be over your stem
That would be a bonkers riding position for anything, other than maybe climbing the steepest of winchiest climbs. You'd be straight otb at the first bump.
The whole heels down thing is more of a mental shift than a bodyweight one.
your breastbone should be over your stem
I should have said chin.
Both can be true if you have the chin for it.
with older geometry we were halfway over the bars anyway
I think way back in the day, pre 2010 or so, we were over the front wheel. This is what I noticed when going back to 26 for a ride after having ridden 29 for a while. My XC 29er from er 2013 or so can be ridden more or less as I was used to but with much better results as the wheel was further away; but the Reactor seems to have a learning curve. The reason I put it in trail mode was that it was easier to do this, but yesterday I felt the need for slacker angles so I put it back into rail mode.
I had been considering an angle adjust headset to help with steep stuff but I think this would make it even harder to get weight over the front wheel. Should I remove some spacers and lower the bars? I've already got a lower rise bar because it was in the CRC sail, but I could drop some spacers.
I'm not sure what the difference between this and a Mega would have been. The chainstay length is the same on both bikes but the front centre is 20mm longer on the Mega, so presumably you'd need to lean forward even more.
EDIT looking at some vids, these people seem to still be somewhat rearwards, but they are a lot lower than I am with arms still bent, so perhaps being "lower" is the key and that will bring my weight forward if I am going downhill.
Practice some endos to help get used to how far forward you can go over the bars without going fully over the bars. For bonus points practice bailing after going fully over the bars.
Slacker head tubes, longer forks, and shorter stems means the front wheel is further away from the bars than older bikes, so you need to put more of your weight on the bars to compensate.
Recently though ive been seeing people ride bikes far too long for them. Then pushing the saddle as far forward as possible to compensate. That combined with a modern steep seat tube just looks wrong when peddling. Longer reach is not always better.
I was trying to make the bike more like the Patriot which I really do think was a more capable descender than the Reactor. But it was such a completely different bike I have had to gradually unlearn everything about that bike (which, to be fair, it took me many years to dial in). I bought one of the £30 carbon bars in the CRC sale and it was a lower rise than the one it came with and it felt too low because I was thinking of my previous bike and looking for that position.
However I just slammed the stem which in this case means 20mm of spacers swapped, and surprisingly it does not feel too low when riding around, and on the steps across the road it feels a bit better when I focus on getting low. Interestingly though my natural position, without trying, seems to have my chin area over the stem already.
I think the bigger wheels make me feel higher up and more vulnerable on steep bits so I was moving back to compensate when I should have been moving down. I wish I had a drone to film myself on both bikes, it would have been really interesting.
The pinkbike learn to ride videos with Ben cathro sums it up well, attack position I think he calls it.
You really need to be pushing that front tyre down to find grip, weight further forward, but still pushing down with your heels into the back tyre. I found I needed a bit more psi & rebound in the fork to help keep things sweet the forward position, means that setting sag has to be in the attack position too.
When I got my Hello Dave, I found that my front wheel could wash out on corners, I had to adapt by pushing more weight through the bars to counter this.
I also found using a slightly more swept bar helped by allowing me to took my elbows in a little bit, whilst also allowing me to move weight forward and back easier.
As for riding more over the rear of the bike, this is kinda right, but the best way I'd describe the technique that has really helped develope my riding is riding with you body in a more 'flattened' position. You end up with a lower centre of gravity meaning better control.
IME modern bikes need a bit more 'body language' when compared to the 26" bikes I rode nigh on 20 years ago.
This article explains it better than I can.
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/zeps-how-to-body-position-descending-cornering-braking-2016.html
Edit:- the side on view out the article illustrates what I mean really well
The slo-mo old vs new position side-by-side halfway through this video is enlightening:
It’s about hardtails but it’s relevant to any old vs new geometry bikes.
Recently though ive been seeing people ride bikes far too long for them. Then pushing the saddle as far forward as possible to compensate.
Too long in your opinion. I have my saddle slammed forwards as I like a roomy cockpit stood up, but my STA is a little slack, so to get the weight forwards on a relatively slack front end when climbing I don't want to have the nose of the same on my coccyx.
so you need to put more of your weight on the bars to compensate.
I'm not a fan of this expression. It gives the impression of having to push down on the bars from above or somehow lean down on them. All that does is make people lower their bars and focus all the weight onto their hands, Which increases demands on your arms and shoulders and makes you fatigue quicker.
It's better think of weight distribution at the axles IMO. And you can achieve that to a fair degree by sliding your saddle forwards and having a long front centre in your frame, which can look exactly like:
Recently though ive been seeing people ride bikes far too long for them. Then pushing the saddle as far forward as possible to compensate.
Since buying into nu-skool LLS, my bar heights across three bikes have all gone up, and the longer the front centre, generally the higher they go.
That said, theres clearly a point at which LLS is too long, but this also depends on preference. Personally, I've rowed back a touch, because I spend a fair amount of time in the twisties. Seems to me the majority of the manufacturers are about right now.
Both heels down supposedly pushes your weight backwards (Roxy MTB has a video on the how and why). Look at the pink bike picture above. The lead foot (far side of if the bike) is dropped but the rear foot is closer to flat.
I'm also a serial weight to far back front wheel scrubber (also means I don't use the forks travel well). Currently working on the foot positioning as per the pic above and the hinge position.
Both heels down supposedly pushes your weight backwards
That figures. Heels down is more about making sure ones feet don't slide off no?
Training, get some.
Geo-wise and how they ride, my 2018 Cotic was in reality both one of the first with 'modern' geometry AND the first bike that ever properly fitted me. An utter revelation compared to all the previous bikes I'd owned especially on the steep & knarly trails here in the Tweed Valley.
Since then I also got a better shaped HT (to replace my 456Ti) and topped up with a Kenevo SL now even the 'conservative' manufacturers have caught up. All 29ers, both for their ride and that I'm tall so do feel at home on them.
Yeap. I think there are some scenarios where both are dropped (ramps down with sharp transition on a CX bike comes to mind though I might be wrong doing that as well). The position above iirc is about creating a wedge with your feet between the pedals (lower legs form a triangle from the knees).
As per that PB article, if I stay centred on the bike I find I don’t have to think about trying to load the front wheel. I also run lots of rise (40 mm stem) and recently fitted 50 mm rise bars as an experiment (I wondered if it might be a step too far); it made descending near vertical, slippy, rooty, rocky slopes even easier. I am guessing it’s because I can more comfortably stay in the centre of the bike, not because I’m deliberately putting any more pressure on the bars. It’s nuts the stuff you can let a modern bike go down, slopes you couldn’t climb up on foot and would have scoffed at the idea of riding down a decade ago.
It’s better think of weight distribution at the axles IMO.
^ this.
It becomes tiring when your C of G is far fwd of the BB because your weight will fall-pivot forwards and you need to keep yourself upright with your arms. When a bike has the correct RC:FC relationship for your height and build and the right bar position you'll probably have your weight going through the BB (or close to it) in a balanced way.
The feeling of needing to lean fwd can be a sign of a bike that's too long in the front, or at least is more biased towards steep descents if that feeling is mainly on the flowy flatter singletracks. A ride position that works for you is one where most of your riding feels balanced and you can go +/- to account for the range of slope angles you ride up or down.
The feeling of needing to lean fwd can be a sign of a bike that’s too long in the front
This bike feels on the long side, as I was between sizes and I sized up. I originally fitted a shorter stem, but of course this was the wrong choice.
It does seem that the steep geo setting is better on normal woodsy trails but the long setting might be more appropriate on the big hills.
a days coaching will sort you out, did a day with Sam at Katy Kurd Coaching https://www.katycurdcoaching.com/product/trail-progression/ in FOD was great for me
I see Hobnob mentioned elbows, I was just gonna say to try sticking them out in an exaggerated way - almost like a press-up position.
I find that a good cue for getting into a more-aggressive position generally.
I'm not doing coaching, I hate it.
I originally fitted a shorter stem, but of course this was the wrong choice.
So you now have a longer stem, making the front centre even longer?
No, the stem has nothing to do with the front centre i.e. the distance between the front wheel axle and the BB. It shifts my CoM forward though - a bit. As does lowering the stem, and bending my arms.
Yet it could be a much bigger gain than marginal gains of serial bike & part swapping?
It's far too generic for what I want. Unless someone is going to follow me down these specific trails with a drone, it's not going to satisfy me. I've been competently for over 30 years, I just need to understand and adapt to my new bike on my own terms. I wouldn't enjoy coaching, and a coach wouldn't enjoy coaching me. As a general rule I like to work things out for myself whilst asking specific questions of people who know the things, not just go through lessons. I'd talk to an expert, ask a lot of questions, and watch them carefully (as I'm doing here - for free, and it's been very helpful) but I don't want lessons.
No, the stem has nothing to do with the front centre i.e. the distance between the front wheel axle and the BB.
Yes, I used the wrong terminology. My bad.
Your overall cockpit is lengthened though, unless you brought your saddle forward to compensate.
As you are, you are more 'stretched' between the saddle and the bars. Whether that is within tolerance only you can decide.
As does lowering the stem,
IMO you should at least experiment with bringing your saddle forward a touch and bringing your bars up. It sounds like you're falling for the 'lean more on the bars' approach to managing weight distribution. Again, IMO, that would be a mistake.
I did move it forward a touch and tilted it forward which has a similar effect. However the issues I'm describing are all about descending where your saddle does not play a part, except as a reference point; and 10mm here and there does not affect that much.
I have experimented with saddle fore and aft before; I've had two stems and three bars on this bike already :). All these adjustments are to find the position you want; the problem was that I was chasing the wrong position.
"Both heels down supposedly pushes your weight backwards"
That figures. Heels down is more about making sure ones feet don’t slide off no?
the cranks are free to rotate (we're talking about stood up and coasting here) so all the weight you put into your legs will be applied to the bottom bracket. there is nothing you can do to change that. You can weight the front wheel more by putting more weight through your hands through body position; or by changing the geo or fit of the bike.
On the original question about "weight back" I think the key is actually "weight down". Tiny short bikes with no droppers (if you've been riding 30 years, 1/2 to 2/3 of your riding career!) meant the only way to get weight down was to go back.
However the issues I’m describing are all about descending
Ah! I see. My answer is still higher bars and possibly fork settings too. 😀
Forward weight bias needs a more supportive fork to push against compared to off the back riding too.
I think BITD you were too far forward between the wheels so you had to go back; now you are further back so you have to go forward, which seems best achieved by going low since your torso pivots.
That said, the best way to ride the Patriot on windy flatter stuff was with my bum towards the back wheel. I could turn extremely quickly like that. The bike was far more manoeuvrable than the Reactor is. And somehow I had plenty of front wheel grip and could corner on rails.
I had to re-adjust my position when I got a 2022 geo bike. Having started in the 90s it took a bit of time to weight the new long slack front end enough to get front tyre grip.
On the heels down, I see the Roxy video mentioned. It's excellent and I agree with it. Maybe it's more prevalent for a flat pedal rider but dropping BOTH heels does not help me.
Dropping the trailing heel moves weight back, rotates the pelvis, locks out the rear leg and reduces mechanical grip on the pedals as both feet are parallel.
Sinking down slightly between the pedals and making a 'V' with your feet keeps weight over the BB, both knees flexed and allows outward fore/aft pressure onto the pedals (similar to an 'Egyptian' in rock climbing if that means anything). With this technique I have a lot more connection with the bike and control on the back wheel with flats.
I've found stills of Sam Hill and Ratboy both with the foot 'V' so it's not just me...
We're describing a nujeproof reactor as modern geometry?
It's modern for me!
I don't think it's old fashioned, it's just not Enduro geometry. Seems to be a bit of an in between bike.
I think BITD you were too far forward between the wheels so you had to go back; now you are further back so you have to go forward, which seems best achieved by going low since your torso pivots.
I'm not sure you need to go low really. The longer FCs we have now suit descending faster/steeper - as the bike tilts down your C of G is staying in the right place over a greater range of bike downward angle, if that makes sense as I'm prob not describing it too well. Anyway, when you get your C of G in the right general area or range Vs the BB axle pivot your bar position can vary quite a bit without changing the C of G much - the bars just keep you in balance. Then set up your bars for a mix of comfort, control or handling fine tuning. But if the frame reach is too long that will be harder to balance up.
I'd have a higher rather than lower bar on an MTB as long as I still feel in the right place over the F tyre on flatter faster corners (can think of grip areas and contact patch as a triangle viewed from the front).
It's modern enough for the sake of this discussion.
+1 for perhaps try raising your bar as well.
But definitely try the elbows thing I said before - you don't wanna be trying to think about 5 things while you're riding, and I find that helps prompt the other bits.
Also worth looking up Lee McCormick's RAD and RAAD measurement on pinkbike, I'm not sure if it's right for many riders now and I don't have a view of it a s a benchmark tbh. But the idea is valid as it's easy to measure and looking at your 2 contact points and considering how well/easily you can move your weight from there, over a fairly wide range of terrain angles (descending mainly). Using his general formula I get a RAD number that seems a bit short but the formula was from 2016ish.
+1 for perhaps try raising your bar as well.
I just lowered it! It had been on max height.
What'll happen if I fit a slackening headset?
Thinking about this some more, I think a session at a decently big pump track might be a good idea, it'll help you feel where the centre of the bike's gravity is and how best to shift your weight going over the bumps and leaning/compressing the bike into the berms. This way you can easily repeat sections making small adjustments each time.
In recent times I've been sessioning sections of trail, trying to improve my technique, it's really helped my riding as well as my 11 year old son's riding. Something I never did in the past as I was more focused on 'getting the miles in'
What's your height?
What's your bar height and width?
What's the stem length?
What's the frame reach?
Yeah some sessions on man made stuff would be good. I should go to BPW.
- 180cm
- Ape index 0
- 780mm wide, 12mm rise (Nukeproof Horizon v2)
- 45mm stem
- 480mm reach
You don't seem anywhere wild in terms of size, maybe on the longer end of things, bars are a lot lower than I personally run.
What symptoms are you getting that makes you think your weight is off?
I ride bmx bikes, jump bikes, trail bikes and dh bikes, they're all varying shapes, I've never had to think "do this with your elbows, chin here, heels down", nor have I ever had to think about it when changing between bikes, so don't really buy into "well if the bike is x shape I have to ride it y way", only when setup has been off, which pretty much only seems to be bar height related for me.
Just a case of new bike, feels different and just have to get used to it?
What symptoms are you getting that makes you think your weight is off?
First time out I nearly wiped out spectacularly as the front wheel washed out. After that it just felt.. off.. compared to my last chunky bike, a 2007 Patriot. I tried every variable trying to make it like the Patriot until I realised that it wasn't possible, it was too different. I found that moving my weight forward did help. Then on Saturday I did some big steep descents for the first time and the steering felt really wobbly, floppy and insecure, prompting me to think about more about it.
I am a big advocate of fettling bike setup and I have a stack of stems and bars to prove it, but I think here I was trying to make it be like something it couldn't be. I under-estimated just how different it is to my old bike and I'm having to learn some things and really un-learn other things that weren't 'bad habits'. They were very good techniques on my old bike, but don't work at all here.
Similar boat here @molgrips. Going from a 2012 Nukeproof Mega to a new Trek Roscoe 9 and it feels like a runaway train on the steep stuff. I just put it down to being A/a modern 29er and B/a hardtail and concluded I just need to ride it more and get used to it being different. The videos posted earlier in the thread seem useful though.
Missed off your measurements, what’s the stack height of the frame?
if you’re riding off the back of the bike already, slackening it out further will give you even less front end grip. Same applies for a going shorter on the stem.
On that size bike at your height you should be able to weight the front well enough.
Maybe you're just hiding at the back a bit too much due to years and years of trad. conditioning?
Took me a while to break old habits.
Just try keeping a bit of a bend in your elbows. Sometimes you’ll find yourself with straight arms on a steep descent and have to consciously bend them which will bring you more into the middle of the bike.
How tall are you / what size reactor?
If the fronts washing it could be you’re too far back, but equally you could be too over the front and overloading the tyre making I dig in, or maybe just dragging front brake. If you think you’re too far back watch some World Cup racers and have a look at how much tyre buzz they get in a run and how much they trust the mechanical grip of the front of the bike
So I don’t know what your issue is, as I’ve not seen you ride. But I can describe my issue and it may give you something to look at.
I am fairly good at keeping the front wheel weighted, just try and keep my chin over the stem and stop my elbows from dropping too low. Great, well not so much. What I then end up doing is letting my hips move forward and down a bit too much which puts me in much more of a precarious position on the bike. It feels fine, but when the trail gets steeper or twisty it leaves the bike (and me) unbalanced.
So I’m slowly learning to recognise when this happens and move my hips upward again. Start of a ride now I just do a few drills to remind myself how it feels when they drop forwards and it seems to make it easier to maintain better body position. Every time I correct myself on a feature or section I immediately feel more stable on the bike. Muscle memory is a shit at time.
So when I fitted the lower rise bars the bars felt too low, so I raised the bars as much as I could. But somehow, riding with the bars slammed does not feel too low?? Just goes to show how subjective it is.
Anyway it seems that bending my elbows and lowering the bars was the thing I was missing. It was actually a bit better climbing but much better descending. My chin was over the bars generally but being lower which pivots my torso around my hips has movedy CoG forward. Everything felt pretty dialled.
It's a very different way of riding though. On the other bike I used to be more upright and I'd be putting my weight off the side of the bike and pulling the front wheel around, but on this one I am sort of sitting in the middle and doing more hip steering. It feels more like getting your weight over the middle of skis; also somewhat perversely since my body is now so low my back is flatter and it is much more like descending on a road bike or even further BITD on a mid 90s rigid bike. Quite hard work on the thighs though.
Anyway it seems that bending my elbows and lowering the bars was the thing I was missing
I find bar height has a massive effect on my confidence, lots of people have talked about having higher bars to give more confidence on steep stuff for a few years now (in various places, mag articles etc) , I tried raising mine, but dont like it all, it really affects front wheel grip on steep downhill stuff. The problem is its hard to articulate bar height in objective terms, maybe everyone who advocates higher bars is coming from a starting point of bars much lower than mine already were, so mine ended up way too high when I raised them?
Anyway - mine are now (and always have been - after trying higher and finding I dot like it) in a position where the grips are about level with the saddle/just a few mm lower, when the saddle is in the raised position.
So when I fitted the lower rise bars the bars felt too low, so I raised the bars as much as I could. But somehow, riding with the bars slammed does not feel too low?? Just goes to show how subjective it is.
I've found this before. I think when you have them very low, you get forced into that straight armed style that you see most of the pro xc racers in when on easier descents.
When they are high, you have the elbows out posture of the gravity rider.
When in the middle, you cant do either effectively.
Of course where high middle and low are, varies for the individual, and also per bike.
I would love to trim the now un-used 20mm off the top of the steerer for that proper slammed look but I'm sure I'll regret it later 🙂
It sort of makes sense that at the short end of the range for that frame size I should have the stem low. There's only about 2cm of seatpost showing.