 You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/21553680 ]US government now after him[/url]
I would like to say I feel sorry for him, but I don't. His eyes in that photo say he's worried (to me).
Reminds me of a Simpsons quote, 'The firm declared super-duper bankruptcy. Which is terrible news for the company's only stock-holder... Homer Simpson'
Not sure why Landis [ who did exactly what LA did - cheat and lie] should benefit from any of this
Not sure why Landis [ who did exactly what LA did - cheat and lie] should benefit from any of this
I think the argument for this is that it encourages whistleblowing. And if Landis getting a reward means Lance is brought down then justice is seen to be done... there is a significant difference to the magnitudes of what they did after all...
I agree, it doesn't seem ideal but you can't disagree with the potential final outcome...
Not sure why Landis [ who did exactly what LA did - cheat and lie] should benefit from any of this
This
+ infinity
I don't mind Armstrong being forced into coughing up, but the thought of that cheating little rodent getting rich on the back of this makes me slightly sick....
Lance in 2014
[img] 
[/img]
Hang one, hang them all. Or preferably not and just improve the sport and its cleanliness going forward.
Nothing is gained by making Lance homeless. The sponsors benefit at the time is still what it was.
Poo happens. They should get over it. Stick them all on community service or in jail for a while. Levy a % of wealth fine and move forward. Job done, easy.
it encourages whistleblowing
what fraudster [ he repaid to avoid prosecution in a deal]finally gives in and takes as many folk with him as possible and hacks some computers - this is not whistleblowing as I understand it.
you can't disagree with the potential final outcome...
I just did , twice 😉Fine for what happened to LA but landis getting wealthy on this NO
Junkyard - MemberNot sure why Landis [ who did exactly what LA did - cheat and lie] should benefit from any of this
Because Armstrong is personally responsible for all doping ever, and once they bring him down, the sport will be rehabilitated and they can all have medals 😉
Lance who?
So, the US Postal Service never benefited from been associated with Lance - if that WAS the case then whoever agreed the sponsorship is the fraud, for wasting taxpayers money.
Its just another example of what happens when you've too many lawyers.
The government suing someone for lying to and defrauding the public? Excellent! When are they going after the politicians then?
So, the US Postal Service never benefited from been associated with Lance
This is what I struggle with, maybe the US postal service should also have to pay back any profits, distributed evenly to all its customers for the period in which they sponsored lance. That would cost them more in what they recoup.
All it is is people jumping on the bandwagon trying to get a payout.
Yep it's what happens when you let America become independent....
we have similar principles as to benefit applied in Competition Law, the whistleblower essentially gets immunity from prosecution and no penalties
the Landis/ Lance thing is based on US legislation and has been used a few times by their financial authorities
for cycling/ all sport on the issue of doping the issue is getting the witnesses and the evidence. I'd be happy if some similar setup could be created to kill the omerta on doping in all sports coupled with financial penalties to fund further traditional testing and research etc
Lance's lawyers will prove that everyone in the pro peleton.. was, in some shape or form.. cheating, they will also prove that everyone, from the UCI down to coach drivers, new about the doping...Lance will probably end up richer...ironically he'll also be the reason doping gets eradicated.
Lance's lawyers will prove that everyone in the pro peleton.. was, in some shape or form.. cheating, they will also prove that everyone, from the UCI down to coach drivers, new about the doping...Lance will probably end up richer...ironically he'll also be the reason doping gets eradicated.
This. I'm imagine his book sales are through the roof at the moment.
This is going too far now, he deserves to be punished but there is only so much stress one man can take. I am somewhat fearful of where this could all lead.
cb - MemberThis is going too far now, he deserves to be punished but there is only so much stress one man can take. I am somewhat fearful of where this could all lead.
where is it going to lead?
Was there a limit to the stress he dealt out?
what did he expect he had contracts wher ehe signed to say he was not a drug cheat and he even took one to court where he lied under oath to get his payments...what do you think these companies would do when they found out the liar and the cheat lied to them and cheated them out of money?
He is merely reaping wht he has sowed. He shoudl be grateful no one has done a LA on him and threatened his charity, called him a whore or suggested he is mentally unstable.
Not nice man gets his comupance basically.
just aslong as you don't call him fat you'll be ok.He shoudl be grateful no one has done a LA on him and threatened his charity, called him a whore or suggested he is mentally unstable.
I'm disappointed that the many people he destroyed for trying to out him haven't now moved in for the kill.
If you live by the sword you'll die by the sword.
Lance Armstrong did drugs! 😯
Yes. The members of singletrackworld forum have decided that LA did in fact take drugs, therefor it is fact.
Thank you, goodnight.
Lance Armstrong did drugs!
It was the done thing in professional cycling...m'lud
I think if it was anyone else I would feel sorry for them but seeing that LA bullied anyone that dared to question his validity I feel he deserves all he gets.
I think it is about time that all dopers should face a prison sentence. I see no difference between doping and match fixing. Both is basically cheating the paying sporting public/businesses.
The members of singletrackworld forum have decided that LA did in fact take drugs, therefor it is fact.
As has finally confessed I am failing to see what your point is here tbh
I'll try a different approach - what physical, mental and economic state would most of you like to see LA end up at? Where does it end? I am interested rather than being antagonistic. Broke, jail (for how long), straight jacket? To me, his main crime in life was being an arrogant p*ick and a bully. The rest was no worse than any other rider - he just happened to be better when doped.
Don't go getting confused thinking I am condoning his actions but at some stage he'll have to be considered as 'time served'. And just don't buy his bloody books - its quite simple.
I'm with cb on this, I find the whole "we must bring LA down at all costs" approach a bit OTT really, a bit too much like a witch-hunt and vendetta rolled into one.
Re the bullying and lying - what exactly do you think goes on in the pro peloton? It's a cartel, the [i]omerta[/i] runs right through it at all levels. Every non-doper in there has suffered to some degree or other, even the neo-pros at the time (like Millar) who were staunchly anti-doping were eventually sucked in by peer pressure and what amounts to bullying from their teammates and managers. Or they quit.
LA (and USPS/Discovery) wasn't doing anything different to any other rider/team. He just did it better. I don't condone the doping in any way but cycling let itself get to that point with the tacit approval of the UCI, the team managers, the sponsors and the riders.
The constant "let's get Lance" just continues to drag the name and reputation of cycling through the mud while doing nothing to tackle the current doping problem.
The rest was no worse than any other rider - he just happened to be better when doped.
Not this again For the record not every rider cheated - it is well known that many did not
LA (and USPS/Discovery) wasn't doing anything different to any other rider/team
As above and frankly that is just LA BS said so often that some folk buy it. It is just not true- its celarly not true it just laughable [ and tragic] that folk are still saying this.
It is factually untrue to claim they all cheated or to suggest that all teams behavedlike this or that all leaders or riders acted as LA did. Please stop doing it.
Personally as he seems to have made all his wealth from cheating it would not seem unreasonable that he looses it all due to it being fraud/cheating- bit like taking away the profits for crime for a caught drug dealer or bank robber.
at some stage he'll have to be considered as 'time served'.
what is the time - i assume you mean punishment here - that he has served so far exactly - it seems he has been stripped but remains personally a very wealthy man on the back of his cheating and has yet to engage fully in confessing or asking for forgiveness.
I would support truth and reconcilliation but as far as I can see LA has lied all his life except once to Oprah then refused to talk to the actual officials.
If the bank robber confesses to Oprah would you or anyone consider that as "time served"?
It is factually untrue to claim they all cheated or to suggest that all teams behavedlike this or that all leaders or riders acted as LA did. Please stop doing it.
Read the earlier books.
Breaking the Chain by Willy Voet
Bad Blood by Jeremy Whittle
Doping was endemic before Lance, it was endemic during Lance's time and it's a lot less endemic now. Lance is not and never was the be-all-and-end-all of doping. He's a liar and a cheat and deserves to be stripped of his titles. But then so does Riis and Ullrich and Virenque and Rasmussen and probably 80% of the rest of the riders who stood on that podium or won a jersey. Let's be fair.
And while we're being fair, I really wish someone would open the door into the rest of the sports and athletes that Fuentes "treated". I suspect that the football and tennis worlds would suddenly find themeselves with very red faces.
As has finally confessed I am failing to see what your point is here tbh
Bit fed up of all the Lance bashing to be honest. The regulars of Singletrack seem to have decided that LA is evil and every thread created about him decends into a barrage of boring quotes and examples of how awful he truly was.
Everyone overlooks the positive points of his career, just as I imagine everyone will forget that Pistorius has inspired a whole generation of athletes.
Why does Lance deserve a big house and a hot wife? Because he spent every waking moment of his whole life trying to be the best at something, same reason David Beckham deserves to stay in 14k hotel rooms.
I think anyone still giving Lance some sympathy may very well have shaky morals themselves. Either that or a liberal mindset as wide as the Atlantic.
In this life you are either part of the problem or part of the solution. Lance is the former. The gathering of 'riches' through cheating is immoral at the very least. It doesn't matter a jot that you worked hard at your cheating. Brodie, tell me your post is a wind up?!
Well im not in love with the man but I think he has done enough good in his life to avoid being cast out onto the streets in poverty.
Unless I were looking up at him from the TdF podium in second place knowing I was clean as a whistle I've got better things to put effort into than destroying a man I don't even know.
Waderider - MemberI think anyone still giving Lance some sympathy may very well have shaky morals themselves. Either that or a liberal mindset as wide as the Atlantic.
Mmmmm. I think it was a dirty sport before he arrived, and I think since so many top riders were also doping, it's hard to condemn one for doing something that was commonplace. It'd have been very hard to succeed at the top without doping (the "what clean rider would have won Lance's tours" game is good fun.)
Did he ever beat a clean rider into second? Doesn't seem so.
He didn't have to be a **** about it though and that's one of the reasons people will be happier to see him fall than they might otherwise, I think.
Everyone overlooks the positive points of his career
what positives? he was a lying cheat who bullied the peleton, caused innocent riders who did not cheat to leave the peleton and sport. He threatened Le monds business, accused his wife suggested his masseuse was a drunk with loose morals aggressively suedd all those who spoke the truth and denied it till the end.
What are the positive aspects of his career that I am missing
it's hard to condemn one for doing something that was commonplace.
Ah the nuremberg defence 😕
It'd have been very hard to succeed at the top without doping (the "what clean rider would have won Lance's tours" game is good fun.)
True
Did he ever beat a clean rider into second? Doesn't seem so.
No but clean riders lost jobs, stages and tours due to cheats
I do agree with the general point that we should be attempting to clean up the sport not just bring down LA however he needs to reap what he sows. He achieved everything by being a lying cheat and he should not prosper from this.
Who cares?
They are always one step ahead the athletes. Look at Oscar- only caught out due the shooting of his girlfriend.
Cheats after fellow cheats. Wtf. Landis dragged the Tour through the court in attempt to keep his title. What a Hyena.
Cheats after fellow cheats. Wtf. Landis dragged the Tour through the court in attempt to keep his title. What a Hyena.
It's pretty despicable that Landis stands to gain a lot of money if the whistleblowing lawsuit ever actually comes to fruition - the Sunday Times today reckoned the case might take 3 or 4 YEARS to settle but Landis was just as much a cheat as LA... (and Ullrich, and all the others).
He continued to do dope and cheat while Team Leader at Phonak (basically demanding that the rest of the team dopes to enable him to "win"), he defrauded the general population with that "Floyd Fairness Fund" and a book about how he was innocent and now stands to come out of it several tens of millions of dollars better off... 😯
aye no way Landis should make a penny out of this at all he is no better and did everything LA did. That really stinks tbh
Junkyard - MemberNo but clean riders lost jobs, stages and tours due to cheats
Aye, and that's the sad part of it. But to be a guy in the middle, riding along with a cheat in front and a cheat behind, you face the choice of cheating, or risking being a clean rider that loses a job, stage or tour due to cheats. Two sides of the same coin. The individual rider can't fix that by not cheating, at the end of the day.
But then that's an old argument I think. Anyone know if there's a really reliable estimate of the proportion of dopers/cheats?
hora - MemberThey are always one step ahead the athletes. Look at Oscar- only caught out due the shooting of his girlfriend.
Ehhhh. Steroid claim turned out to be total fabrication, testosterone claim still disputed. Maybe the test results will prove it, maybe not but right now he's not been "caught out". Amazing the momentum "facts" have.
Lance is toast. The momentum is there to ensure his fall is permanent
Commercial pressures will determine that outcome. Is Lance down and out? Absolutely not, look past the use of drugs and you still have a mind of a tactician with his own agenda which has yet to see the light of day.
Anyone know if there's a really reliable estimate of the proportion of dopers/cheats?
NO there are percentages of fails when tests were retaken for EPO but iirc it was small 10 % ish tested positive when LA was identified and iirc his were 50% of those tested with the new procedures
I dont think it was as endemic as LA apologists make out tbh and doubt it was anywhere near the majority but we will never know the true figure even with a truth and reconcilliation programme and possibly not even then. I imagine more common at the top [ but I dont know for sure]
As Hora defended LA to the hilt till the end it seems pointles engaging with him as he seems to have swung the other way now on this issue
Swung the other way?
Yeah when the likes of George H admitted to systematic cheating and was never caught.
Junkyard - MemberI imagine more common at the top [ but I dont know for sure]
Seems a fair assumption though- don't think you can apply the top-end average all the way down, unless the drugs don't work anyway 😉
Those who compare Lance to other dopers, worth spending some time listening to the Radio 5 documentary for more background to the story...
He's also being accused of more serious crimes than any of the others...
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01ngqxd ]Radio 5 documentary[/url]
[url= http://abcnews.go.com/US/lance-armstrong-investigation-obstruction-witness-tampering-intimidation/story?id=18415386 ]More than just doping[/url]
Ah the nuremberg defence
Spectacularly early showing of Godwin's law. Well done.. 😀
He's got charisma though eh? Can't say he's pretending to be anything other than what he was, which was win at all costs, hard as nails bastard, which most of the riders at the sharp end of the race are but would like you to think otherwise 😉
I think if it was anyone else I would feel sorry for them but seeing that LA bullied anyone that dared to question his validity I feel he deserves all he gets.
It was his bullying and egotism that mean he deserves more punishment than most of the others. Suing the Sunday Times, the young girl who was his masseur and loads of others who were too small and poor to properly defend themselves. I think he is a particularly odious human being and to get away with it because he has good lawyers and PR would be an injustice. I think he was in a different league of badness than anyone else i have heard about.